Is it anyone's off this forum?
Hope the driver is ok.
Someone just posted some pictures on another forum i frequent.
Is it anyone's off this forum?
Hope the driver is ok.
Yeah i recognise that car. Blimey!!
Doesn't look too serious and i hope the owner is ok.
i think this is the car & owner taking a prospective buyer out.... i think.
.JPG)
[Edited on 6/5/06 by donut]
original thread here
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6989692
ohhh... thats not a nice look 
Poor sod.
Only just picking it up too. I'm not sure if anyone else noticed but the roads are really greasy today.
Thats pants, as it looks like he's ok i just hope its an easy fix, bodywork and maybe a few suspension bits.
Been there I'm afraid, not a nice feeling but cars can be re built.
yeah, just driving it home, must be totally gutted.
at least the damage doesn't seem too severe
People just don't realise how quick a seven type car is.
I remember years ago after we fitted the zetec to the Sylva. We gave a local mechanic a go (he thought he was a bit handy as a driver). He managed to
spin it in it's own length pulling away from a junction.
No real damage, but he was suitably chastened.
From the pics...
This is yet another one with too wide tyres on too big a diameter rim and too low on the profiles......and probably with too high
pressures,...........and all probably running hooked up to too hard springs and too hard adjusted dampers.
When will people ever learn??
Syd. 
Edit: You will all be aware by now that I am an avid exponent of 13" wheels (lighter than bigger types)
tyres no bigger than 185's(gives better road pressure),
and no less than 60% profile(for a more forgiving ride and handling.)
That all amounts to 185/60's on 13" rims.
You youngsters can all use what you want, just keep posting the pics of your prangs so us old folks can keep saying'I told you so'.
[Edited on 6/5/06 by Syd Bridge]
they only look like 15s and the profile isn't extreme.
I know what you're saying Syd, but think that this is actually quite reasonable on wheels/rubber. I had a look last weekend and am pretty sure it
15" rims with 195/50 - there are a lot of 16/17" rims out there on Indy's that I don't personally agree with bt 15" is fine
imho.
From reading both threads its obviously down to not driving to the road conditions (ie greasy) and unfamiliarity with the car.
I saw this car at stoneleigh and have seen it at donington in the past.
Ned.
ouch I saw that car at the show and was concerding buying it.....
Lovely car shame about it really.... Hope the driver was not hurt...... well im sure his pride is
Well sid you'll approve of my choice then. Capri 13 alloy cross spokes with 185 70's on it (when i get it on the road) and i'm in the
process of converting from capri / escort (long story) live axle to de-dion using drums as there lighter.
hope he's ok, from the comments on the other forum seems he is.
Must be gutting although if the comment about him doing double the speed limit is true i still hope he's ok but he's lost my sympthy.
I shall be tip toeing my newly completed Luego down to the MOT centre just over a mile away tomorrow. Gave it a 100 yard squirt down the road today,
1st and 2nd gear only .........and OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
Lightweight car powerful ish engine good/bad combination...............................
but what a lot of fun. Roll on SVA.
Poor bloke, must be gutted
It is too easy to jump into any car and be tempted to push it. Especially if all you hear about them is how well they stick to the road...pity theres
such a fine line between pushing it and ending up in the hedge, especially when its damp. I use these examples as reasons to my friends for NOT
letting them have a drive when i get it finished...!
I too am fitting 13" capri 4 spokes with 185 or 195 60 tyres. If they are good enough for the racers, they are good enough for me 
I use 185/70s on 13" x 5.5" wheels - plenty of grip, but not so grippy that they will catch me out.
The worst I've had in 1 year's driving is a nasty fishtail when booting it too hard on a greasy road - in a straight line! Perfectly
controllable though.
I only bought them 'cos I liked the old-fashioned look (and cheap) but I do find them pleasant to drive...
David
I knew my 185/60/14's on 6 inch rims were a good choice
As Dave says I've had the odd occasion when the rear end has stepped out a little but nothing uncontrollable (Apart from the spin at Silverstone
but it was wet ! )
Just because you have 13" wheels fitted, doesn't mean you aint gonna have an accident. Drive outside your own or the cars capabilities and
chances are, you're probably going to have an accident eventually, regardless of what size wheels/tyres you have fitted. It's all too easy
to blame choice of wheel/tyre sizes, when in reality, there is only one cause. Driver error.
Treat the car with respect, get to know its capabilities and handling characteristics in all weather conditions (with whatever wheels/tyres you
choose) and it may last just that little bit longer.
Hope the guy is OK. Martin must be gutted, he's owned and driven that car for ages.
Phil
I dont think anyone is saying just bacuse they have 13"s it means they wont crash. Just that they are more progressive and give you more warning
than a low profile tyre on bigger rims.
Sure there are plenty of people driving around on 15" and 17" rims and they dont all end up in the ditch... However, the short sidewall on
the tyres ultimately leads to less grip when cornering, especially on a light car...sure someone could work out the optimum tyre width and profile
given the right data....
Fair comment Hellfire, but I guess no matter how good you are (and I'm not claiming to be an expert) It's much easier to recover from a
progressive rear end slide than a sudden loss of grip that's heading for a spin. I too hope the driver of the car is OK. If it's the first
seven he has owned I guess someone should have told him that a seven on a wet road requires a great deal of respect and careful handling.
[Edited on 6/5/06 by givemethebighammer]
There are a lot of other factors involved than simply choice of wheel/tyre size. What about tyre pressures, spring rates, damper settings? I don't disagree with what you're saying but if it's badly setup with 13's, it can be more lethal than with 15's setup correctly. Even the difference of a few pounds of pressure can swing the equation in favour of 15's. Driver error. Although rather unfortunate - it's as simple as that.
I completely agree with what you're saying but your missing one point, we're discussing approaches here.
The worlds best setup car will out perform what every i create, but i'm trying to hedge as many things in my favour as possible, give myself a
larger margin of error if you'd prefer. That way i've got more safety, more warning, more chance to save myself. Ok if i'm going to
take this to extreme's i'll buy a volvo (and one of my friends would love me if i did as she's a volvo nut !) but i want to live a
little so i'm building the seven.
Respect is the key. When I bought my TVR 2 years ago I was driving an FTO , high revs required to make it go so stamping on the gas was a regular
thing. Advice at the time was that progressive throttle was the key, as well as heel/toe to stop rear wheel lockup during braking. Learned that
pretty quickly on a trackday when I did a 180 totally unexpectedly.
Good thing now is that driving something as silly as a TVR which will go sideways if I cough (which is also handy if I need to do 1-point turns 
)
means that I have a lot of respect for the Indy from the word go. It may not have the same silly engine-braking that 5 litres gives you, but
it'll still sh@g you up the @ss if you stamp on the gas with your brain in your balls!
Hope the driver of this car is okay, and that he learns from it (assuming of course that it was his mistake).
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=43953&page=2
do ya think it was pants on fire who bought it?
Chris, I'm not convinced that holds true once you get to ultra low profile tyres as the sidewalls are so stiff that they can support quite a bit of weight. I guess this is the reason it's so hard to tell if a low profile tyre is down on pressure simply by looking at it, wheras it's much more obvious on a 70/80 profile tyre.
Its not only the footprint that affects how well your car sticks to the road. Its also the amount of flex in the sidewall.... (all other things being equal)
The other point about larger tire walls is that they are more progressive in the give, as they can flex they will, as you reach the limit they will
start flexing giving you warning of whats about to happen. Low profile tyres don't have this.
(this is all been read from books, i've never experienced it in real life, so if its wrong some one please jump in and stop me perpetuating this
myth)
Myths should always be perpetuated...
A thought just went through my mind (just the one?) - I wonder how many RWD cars the bloke had driven prior to this one? It is a different technique
from FWD, especially near the limit.
But when it comes down to it, it was probably inexperience and over-exuberance that did it, rather than tyres, RWD or FWD, etc.
Still, I wasn't there, so what do I know... I just hope that he was OK, and that the car can be fixed without too much expense and hassle.
David
Why doesn't somebody contact a tyre company, give them the weight of the car, and ask for a recommended tyre??
The result will raise more than a few eyebrows.
Cheers,
Syd.
Edit: Ask for diameter, width and profile.
[Edited on 8/5/06 by Syd Bridge]
go on then
AHH,
Now, if I put up what I got back I'd be poo-poo'd till the end of man. I may be old, but I'm not stupid or senile, yet.
No, this is for one of the 'experts' on here to go after. I just wonder if the truth will be posted.
I've been through this exercise numerous times for customer projects and insurances. The tyre companies know their stuff.
Cheers,
Syd.
[Edited on 8/5/06 by Syd Bridge]
Avon ACB 10?
Not called round but would guess that there aren't many tyres designed for cars that only weigh 500kg
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Avon ACB 10?
Not called round but would guess that there aren't many tyres designed for cars that only weigh 500kg
avon cr500s designed for caterham.
[Edited on 8/5/06 by cossey]
quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
Why doesn't somebody contact a tyre company, give them the weight of the car, and ask for a recommended tyre??
The result will raise more than a few eyebrows.
Cheers,
Syd.
Edit: Ask for diameter, width and profile.
[Edited on 8/5/06 by Syd Bridge]
quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
People just don't realise how quick a seven type car is.
quote:
Originally posted by iank
YOKOHAMA A048-R 165/55X12
YOKOHAMA A32-R 165/70X10
All the best mini's wear them
quote:
Originally posted by ned
quote:
Originally posted by iank
YOKOHAMA A048-R 165/55X12
YOKOHAMA A32-R 165/70X10
All the best mini's wear them
would like to see you get those size wheels over your brakes on a locost
[Edited on 8/5/06 by ned]
) quote:
Originally posted by chris mason
well i followed Syd's advise and contacted 2 tyre manufacurers who shall remain unnamed,
of the reply's i got, i shall be sticking with my 195/50/15
Chris
I honestly don't want to get involved in any tea or sugar mixing, and know absolutley feck all about tyres, other than theyr'e round, black
expensive, and don't last long (is it just me) but after following all this erm... interesting debate. i got round to wondering why it is, when
you go to a hillclimb event, most of the serious competitors including the featherweight cars seem to run extra wide tyres? Personally iv'e
switched to 13's, more for weight saving and cheaper sticky tyres than anything, 20 odd kilos saved, means i can drink more
Al.
the tyres designed for lightweight sports cars are:
avon acb10
avon cr500
toyo r888
yoko a021r
yoko a032r
yoko a048r
of those the acb10s are very light but are crossplies so need different geometry and are appaling in the wet.
cr500 designed for caterham to be better in the wet than acb10s, used by the graduate race series so lots of barely worn ones aobut soon as many
racers replace them early (well the caterham ones do)
toyos arent that widely used and are fairly new quite similar to the yoko 48s
the yokos are all fairly similar but have slightly different compounds and tread patterns of those the 48rs are becoming the most popular due to
better wet grip. the 48rs are the rgb control tyre, the 750mc kitcar championship uses either 32rs or 48rs.
the yoko a359s are used as the locost championship control tyre but that is more due to cost it seems as they are much harder and dont have as much
grip.
the rgb standard seems to be 185/60/r13 at the front and 205/60/r13 at the rear, which from what ive seen seems to be a good compromise.
Ive just spoken to Toyo as planned. Without going into too much waffle iam now very happy that my choice (T1-S 195/50 x 15) is correct for my use and
should i start to participate in more track days will consider another set of wheels with 195/50x15 or even 205 R888's.
i have to say the guy at Toyo was extremely helpful and happy to spend 15mins chatting. Top man - great service.
quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
From the pics...
This is yet another one with too wide tyres on too big a diameter rim and too low on the profiles......and probably with too high pressures,...........and all probably running hooked up to too hard springs and too hard adjusted dampers.
When will people ever learn??
Syd.
Edit: You will all be aware by now that I am an avid exponent of 13" wheels (lighter than bigger types)
tyres no bigger than 185's(gives better road pressure),
and no less than 60% profile(for a more forgiving ride and handling.)
That all amounts to 185/60's on 13" rims.
You youngsters can all use what you want, just keep posting the pics of your prangs so us old folks can keep saying'I told you so'.
[Edited on 6/5/06 by Syd Bridge]
almost word for every word! Ok - another person here who knows bugger all about the science.
If wide tyres are crap on a lightweight car - then why do Caterham fit 245 width Avon CR500s to the new CSR?
This is not a dig - I'm really interested - as I'm gonna have around the same power to weight ratio in my car and am thinking of fitting the
same tyres.
I followed Francy Clarkson around the Alps in this car with these tyres, on dry, damp, greasy, snowy, stony roads and she was driving like a nutter
and they never missed a beat, I never saw the car step out in anything but a controlled manner (and that not very often) - all of which lead me to
believe that Caterham has chosen right.
I was particualrly impressed with their wet capabilities, seemed to grip the road exceptionally well.
I understand the theory of what has been said here - just the pratical application surely has to be just as important?
As surely it also depends on the compound, as standard road tyre will heat up and become more grippy far slower than a nice sticky cut slick like an
888 or CR500?
I've also spent a great deal of time on a cossie locost (Hicosts) which runs 245 Goodyears. And whilst heavier than a standard locost is still a
lightweight car. I've NEVER known it to step out at all, again in rather crap conditions as well as dry.
I'm sure the reason both of these cars run large 245 tyres is that they don't want the rears lighting up everytime they step on the
gas...
[Edited on 11/5/06 by Jasper]
I think that there are many factors that make drivers stuff their cars into the scenery - here's my little list of possibilities:
1. Inappropriate wheels and/or tyres.
2. Wrong tyre pressures / suspension settings.
3. Inexperience with:
3a. RWD cars.
3b. Very high power-to-weight ratios.
3c. Seven-style handling (i.e. their tendency to bite if abused)
4. Over-exuberance.
5. Recklessness/Stupidity.
6. Bad decisions made in poor driving conditions.
7. Sheer bad luck.
In most accidents I've seen reported here, a selection of these factors played some part in the accident.
Just my 2p's worth.
David
[Edited on 11/5/06 by David Jenkins]
David, you have hit the nail on the head with your observations.....
IMO.... Every car is different, that is weight engine size, indeed a bec verses cec is a world of difference.
IMO you have to think very hard about how the car is set up with its weight. For example, a very light bike engine is going to handle very differently
to a car engine. It has never been a case of use bigger wheels with nice low profiles, it may, in the owners eyes look the 'biz', but it
doesn't mean that the car will handle well. The design of the locost assumes a basic suspension set up given the original locost concept of the
mk2 Escort, which of course used 13" wheels. Today, there is little choice when looking for tyres to fit a 13" wheel, and far more choice
with the bigger wheel and low profile tyre. Thats where a danger will lurk, because by changing the wheel/tyre/profile, a consideration as to shocks,
springs and tyre pressures has to be worked out.
No doubt Caterham have, like any good car builder, spent a lot of time and money on research to alter the suspension/shocks springs and tyre
pressures.
There are indeed a lot of light race cars using bigger, but again, I know a lot of time and effort would have gone into testing and changing the set
up to suit them. Remember also that when talking race cars, they are usually that, set up for the track, not always dual purpose (road and
track), in that case, a compromise is usually needed. It can be done, but a lot of time, effort and patience is required to make the bigger
wheels/tyres on a locost handle satisfactory.
I have not spoken to Hicost about his tyres, pressures, suspension etc. I do know the car, and although as you say Jasper, it is light, it is still
bigger and heavier than the usual locost that lends itself to the original 13" wheel design. I do seem to recall a conversation with him in the
past when he said that over time he has played with tyre pressures, and knowing James (Hicost), I feel sure he has/is always tweaking until the car
feels 'right' to his exacting standards!
All the above in my most humble opinion as always........
Just my 4 pence worth of course!
Fozzie
Wow a triple post, things have slowed up on here ??
Jason
Just to take this off on a tangent.
Someone I know used to work for a VERY large tyre manufacture that occasionally has a bad year.
Anyway, tyres aren't designed by engineers. Sad as it may seem they are designed by marketing. If a tread pattern doesn't look
'sexy' it won't get made.
So when you phone up someone what they are telling you is probably 50% theory and 50% marketing. Let me put it this way, could you imagine your
company putting someone on the end of a phone line to talk to joe public who'll say "naah, mate our product is complete crap, worst in the
market place!"
Now if a car manufacture approaches someone to make a tyre what are they going to ask for? Make me the best tyre you can or make me the best tyre you
can that I'll be able to sell? If the trend for tyres is to have low profile and large alloys are caterham really going to start sticking
10" alloys with 100 profile rubber on? Caterham now targets rich people, not racers to buy there product so the product they'll commission
will be a compromise.
I missed one possible cause off my list:
Mechanical failure (always a higher risk on a home-built car)
David
MikeR - if you click on 'edit' you could delete 2 of your posts...
Jasper - when i spoke to my tyre supplier they said my car and power (140ish) / car combo should be fine with 195/50 x 15's. If i up the power a
bit and fancy trying a set of R888's then he would recommend trying 205's.
On cars with much more power they have seen success with 225 rears. I suspect the Caterham is a jump up from that hence 245's.
As said there is no exact science. Joe Public can rarely try different types back to back any way.
Ref marketing etc - yeah very true but thats just business. It was interesting that the guy i was talking to (an engineer not a commercial bod) has
actually been known to not recommend one / any of his tyres for a particular application based on his extensive experience. Maybe some of the hotline
operators simply dont have the experience so can only go off the marketing blurb that the computer throws up????
Anyway im happy with mine and have an option to improve should i require for not a lot of money.
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
I think that there are many factors that make drivers stuff their cars into the scenery - here's my little list of possibilities:
1. Inappropriate wheels and/or tyres.
2. Wrong tyre pressures / suspension settings.
3. Inexperience with:
3a. RWD cars.
3b. Very high power-to-weight ratios.
3c. Seven-style handling (i.e. their tendency to bite if abused)
4. Over-exuberance.
5. Recklessness/Stupidity.
6. Bad decisions made in poor driving conditions.
7. Sheer bad luck.
In most accidents I've seen reported here, a selection of these factors played some part in the accident.
Just my 2p's worth.
David
[Edited on 11/5/06 by David Jenkins]
Certainly I have presumed nothing - as I said before, I hope him and the car are OK.
You reminded me of another and very significant factor - outside influence. In other words, the car that pulls out on you, or the lorry with the
over-full fuel tank that dumps diesel on the road, and so on.
The reason I wrote what I did is that every year this forum gets a number of reports about people who've had a crash. Many times (but not 100%)
it's a new car, or just bought.
David
[Edited on 12/5/06 by David Jenkins]
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Certainly I have presumed nothing - as I said before, I hope him and the car are OK.
[Edited on 12/5/06 by David Jenkins]
No worries!
Probably should have started a new thread to separate my theories from that chap's unfortunate accident.
Does anyone have any news on that accident? Is the driver OK, and is he going to repair the car? Nothing worse than breaking a new toy...
David
Wildchild, I agree, should have sent sympathies for both driver and car and indeed that the driver is indeed ok.
However, I did read all of the thread in the link that was posted on the first page of this thread before I replied.
One observer stated (In His Opinion) that the guy was driving at around double the speed of the 40mph limit, where upon he clipped the kerb. As he was
new to the car perhaps a tad irresponsible (if the 'reporter' is indeed correct).
Over the 4 years I have been on this site we have had so many BEC's crash in exactly that manner, for the exact reasons. I apologise if my manner
was contrite, and concur with David that perhaps the 'reasons' may have been more suited to another thread.
Fozzie
quote:
Originally posted by Fozzie
One observer stated (In His Opinion) that the guy was driving at around double the speed of the 40mph limit, where upon he clipped the kerb. As he was new to the car perhaps a tad irresponsible (if the 'reporter' is indeed correct).
I missed the link to the other forum first time round, so if there's something on there that backs up the theories in this thread, then
that's my bad. It just looked to me like the whole tyre thing had appeared out of nowhere.
I haven't got time to read it now so I'll just assume I'm wrong and shut up!
Don't worry about it...
My original reply was to Syd, wholeheartedly agreeing with his post regarding to wheels/tyres, as 'some' of the accidents (IMHO) could be
attributed to wrong wheels/tyres/set-up, maybe making the cars, when getting skittish, uncontrollable, whereas using the correct wheel/tyre/setup, the
situation may have been redeemed without incident.
Fozzie
nuff said!
Just been pointed at this thread. Well yes that was me, yes first day out in it, 4 hours driving it to be exact.
I'm fine no ill effects whatsoever thanks for asking.
Car needs a couple of wishbones, a rear upright, 2 rear arches and a rear panel.
Now then let me address the speed issue raised by the so called 'oserver' on the other site.
London Road is a 40 limit, a road I know very well, the Thames Valley Police report that's sat on my desk from the traffic patrol officers who
came out to measure up states estimated speed was 35-40 Mph. The 'observer' put me at 80.
I'd love to meet the 'observer' again especially as the 'observer' didn't offer him/herself as a witness at the time,
how very helpful of you.
[Edited on 15/5/06 by Pants On Fire]
Glad you are OK. Sounds like an easy mend, and possibly an excuse to change any parts of the car you arent happy with at the moment.
Pleased to hear you're ok, must be gutted though!
What actually caused the accident then? (if you don't mind me asking)
A lot of people are too quick to judge before the facts arise. It's just as easy to have a 'spill' at 40 as 80, if theres outside
influence.
Marcus
As much as I'm trying to forget it all here goes......
First stretch of dual carriageway on the A4 between Slough & Reading.
Captain Sensible here pulls across to the left to let a car by having just negotiated a roundabout, a Golf I think, I pull too far across to the left
and clip the kerb, over react on the steering wheel car starts to go right potentially into other lane, caught it, then goes left and up the kerb we
go.
Went through 20 yards of undergrowth, missing a lampost by a foot and came to rest.
My fault entirely, still haven't told Martin the builder yet, so if anyone knows him let me do it please!
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
Thats pants, as it looks like he's ok i just hope its an easy fix, bodywork and maybe a few suspension bits.
Been there I'm afraid, not a nice feeling but cars can be re built.
I think that comes into the 'sheer bad luck' category, with a little bit of inexperience with the car. Could happen to just about
anybody.
Get it fixed, take a deep breath, and get out on the road again!
David
Yeah unlucky !
Bad luck Mr Pof. Time to get the spanners/chque book out. Glad to hear you are OK and can you let us know when it's OK to make jokes about the whole incident. I don't want to offend anyone........