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China
carpmart - 29/3/10 at 08:45 AM

Following on from the other thread I thought I would would share my experience of China! I haven't watched the video on the other post as I'm too sensitive to these things!

China has terrible human rights issues let alone animal welfare issues.

I returned from holidaying in China two weeks ago so feel well placed to comment on this, particularly as I saw human rights issues first hand.

My wife and two children (20 and 15 years old) were in Tienanmen Square which is right in the centre of Beijing. There was a heavy milatary and police presence all over the square as there was a political conference taking place (China is single party state so any conference can not be too meaningful!)

Anyway, my wife and son are a few yards behind me when she calls me and I turn round to see a man being bundles into the sliding side door of a police van. The door wasn't closed properly and we could hear this guy getting a proper pasting, you could hear the blows landing and the poor bloke screaming in pain! It took all my persuasive powers and some force to stop my wife from running over to the van!

I was luck enough to have the service of our own tour guide. We asked him what was going on and why the guy was getting abused like that. His response was nonchalant and ambivalent and he suggested that the guy was probably handing out leaflets!

Spending time with this well educated, English speaking guide provided an insight to real China (not Beijing and Shanghai facade) and how brainwashed the whole society is. He extolled the virtues of the red book and told how his parents had even had their photographs taken on their wedding day with the book in clear view. He further explained about liberalization and how now individuals could dress how they wished, rather than the same clothes and same haircuts etc. My conclusion is that Communism is a terrible burden for the citizens of a country,

All in all, I found China to be a fabulous country which on the face of it is showing a very Westernised front. However, underneath its an incredibly controlling and unpleasant society!

My brother and his family are living there for another two years so I am sure I will go back!

britishtrident - 29/3/10 at 10:25 AM

We don't live in a perfect world.
I have witnessed nasty things done by the Police in the UK and other Western European countries, and the US particularly the deep south and mid-west doesn't have exactly a good track record in this respect either.

China, Burma, Russia, Arabia and the whole Africa won't change over night because they have deeply ingrained basic social behaviour patterns have been established for thousands of years.

[Edited on 29/3/10 by britishtrident]

blakep82 - 29/3/10 at 10:36 AM

i'm sure the things happen in the UK that other countries don't agree with.

cd.thomson - 29/3/10 at 10:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
i'm sure the things happen in the UK that other countries don't agree with.


yeah.. like scotland

hicost blade - 29/3/10 at 10:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by cd.thomson
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
i'm sure the things happen in the UK that other countries don't agree with.


yeah.. like scotland


scootz - 29/3/10 at 11:25 AM

FFTS - 29/3/10 at 11:35 AM

It's just a shame that our morals in the western world want to protect human rights in other countries unless or until they have something we want and can make a load of money out of. China used to be the devil as far as we were concerned with their abuses of human rights. Now they are the big boys on the block and good for making money with we turn a blind eye and snuggle up to them. When I say "We" I mean our governments and industry. Look at Saudi.. oh yep they have oil.

And then of course the ultimate hypocrasy.. we condemn torture when done to people in other countries unless of course it has some value to us so then will support and faciltitate Extraordinary rendition (State sponsored kidnapping) so we can have them undergo "Special interrogation" (Torture) by a nasty country (friend) and bingo.. we haven't been bad or broken any laws. In fact our special friend the US even passes new laws to say that its not called torture anymore as long as its only not so nasty torture.. just mild.. you know how it is

Clicky linky thingy

scootz - 29/3/10 at 11:50 AM

For me, I just wish we would wind our western necks in and leave other countries to get on with whatever they are doing to their own people (but not animals!).

If the 'people' truly want change, but more importantly, if the people really want change AND have the means to sustain the change, then they can force it themselves. Any thoughts that WE can force the change on their behalf and it will all be hunky-dory thereafter is just ridiculous!

Take China... there is 1.3 BILLION of them. That's a hell of a lot of people and a hell of a lot of people-power! If they wanted a new regime, then the people could have one for this time next week if they all got mildly angry. Problem is, people disagree about all sorts and their culture is such that whoever takes power after any potential regime-change will abuse their power and we're right back to Square One... or worse!!!

The world stinks... certain parts smell more than others!

cd.thomson - 29/3/10 at 12:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
For me, I just wish we would wind our western necks in and leave other countries to get on with whatever they are doing to their own people

Take China... there is 1.3 BILLION of them. That's a hell of a lot of people and a hell of a lot of people-power! If they wanted a new regime, then the people could have one for this time next week if they all got mildly angry.


agree with with your first point, but not the second.

There are numerous state-sponsored ways of neutering your public so they can't rebel. China employs intense life long indoctrination supported with draconian laws targeting individuals who could foster independent thought.

[Edited on 29/3/10 by cd.thomson]

blakep82 - 29/3/10 at 12:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cd.thomson
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
i'm sure the things happen in the UK that other countries don't agree with.


yeah.. like scotland




thing is, the guy that got a kicking there, he knew fine well that what he was doing was going to get him in a lot of trouble, but he still did it. he knew the risks and consequesnces (next time i'll choose a word i know how to spell)

FFTS - 29/3/10 at 12:22 PM

.

targeting individuals who could foster independent thought.

[Edited on 29/3/10 by cd.thomson]


Ermmm that rules us out on here then

cd.thomson - 29/3/10 at 12:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by FFTS
Ermmm that rules us out on here then


I agree!

02GF74 - 29/3/10 at 12:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by FFTS
China used to be the devil as far as we were concerned with their abuses of human rights. Now they are the big boys on the block and good for making money with we turn a blind eye and snuggle up to them. When I say "We" I mean our governments and industry. Look at Saudi.. oh yep they have oil.



they are the big boys only in as far as they can produce goods cheaply.
it is our fault, not the government's. since we'd rather pay £ 40 for a Kenwood food mixer, with whisk attachments than £ 300 for one made in Germany, for example.

02GF74 - 29/3/10 at 12:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by FFTS
China used to be the devil as far as we were concerned with their abuses of human rights. Now they are the big boys on the block and good for making money with we turn a blind eye and snuggle up to them. When I say "We" I mean our governments and industry. Look at Saudi.. oh yep they have oil.



they are the big boys only in as far as they can produce goods cheaply.
it is our fault, not the government's. since we'd rather pay £ 40 for a Kenwood food mixer, with whisk attachments than £ 300 for one made in Germany, for example.

02GF74 - 29/3/10 at 12:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by FFTS
China used to be the devil as far as we were concerned with their abuses of human rights. Now they are the big boys on the block and good for making money with we turn a blind eye and snuggle up to them. When I say "We" I mean our governments and industry. Look at Saudi.. oh yep they have oil.



they are the big boys only in as far as they can produce goods cheaply.
it is our fault, not the government's. since we'd rather pay £ 40 for a Kenwood food mixer, with whisk attachments than £ 300 for one made in Germany, for example.

carpmart - 29/3/10 at 12:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
quote:
Originally posted by FFTS
China used to be the devil as far as we were concerned with their abuses of human rights. Now they are the big boys on the block and good for making money with we turn a blind eye and snuggle up to them. When I say "We" I mean our governments and industry. Look at Saudi.. oh yep they have oil.



they are the big boys only in as far as they can produce goods cheaply.
it is our fault, not the government's. since we'd rather pay £ 40 for a Kenwood food mixer, with whisk attachments than £ 300 for one made in Germany, for example.


Good point - made three times!

FFTS - 29/3/10 at 01:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
quote:
Originally posted by FFTS
China used to be the devil as far as we were concerned with their abuses of human rights. Now they are the big boys on the block and good for making money with we turn a blind eye and snuggle up to them. When I say "We" I mean our governments and industry. Look at Saudi.. oh yep they have oil.




they are the big boys only in as far as they can produce goods cheaply.
it is our fault, not the government's. since we'd rather pay £ 40 for a Kenwood food mixer, with whisk attachments than £ 300 for one made in Germany, for example.


Before China we used t get our low priced goods from Taiwan (sworn enemy of China) India sells us cheap goods without Chinas record. We can still trade with a nation without pacifying them or their actions. They were awarded the Olympics and bulldozed the homes of 10's of thousands of people with no choice, very poor relocation or compensation if any, but never mind.. as long as we enjoyed the games and Chinas international cred got bigger.

Although it makes me mad that we do it (turn a blind eye) it the hypocritical manner in which we do it or listen to our great leaders who tell us they are changing their ways and befriending them will make it all better.. yeh. What they mean is Money! Money! Money! rules. They say the Chinese government as if it some democracy but a one party choice for the people is called a dictatorship. But we couldn't do business with a dictator could we.. ooohh nooooo!!!!


[Edited on 29/3/10 by FFTS]

morcus - 30/3/10 at 02:01 AM

How much they're government keeps secret from them is scary. When I was at university there were Chinese student living upstairs and we seemed to know more about China than them, let alone everything else.

Its a difficult question, who are we to say our systems are correct? I'm not saying I agree with the way things are done in China but I don't think its right to interviene and force western ideals upon them. Its not really my area of experties but I've a feeling thats partly how china ended up as it is.

FFTS - 30/3/10 at 06:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by morcus
How much they're government keeps secret from them is scary. When I was at university there were Chinese student living upstairs and we seemed to know more about China than them, let alone everything else.

Its a difficult question, who are we to say our systems are correct? I'm not saying I agree with the way things are done in China but I don't think its right to interviene and force western ideals upon them. Its not really my area of experties but I've a feeling thats partly how china ended up as it is.


Is your user name actually MARCUS but your either really posh or got a speech impediment?

02GF74 - 30/3/10 at 01:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by morcus

Its a difficult question, who are we to say our systems are correct? I'm not saying I agree with the way things are done in China but I don't think its right to interviene and force western ideals upon them. Its not really my area of experties but I've a feeling thats partly how china ended up as it is.


Not my area of expertise either but I don't think that is correct.

China was a feudal society with a few rich lords running the place having the vast population as their slaves.

Guess what, the masses did not like it and Mao came along to offer an alternative, that was communism.

Given the choice of being treated as dispensible property by your master or being your own master, then is it not difficult to see why they made the choice they did. Unfortunately the lords were replaced by power crazed leaders who implemented anbtoehr form of oprression.

Communism is great on paper but doesn't work so well in practise, or at least where it has been implemented.

Brommers - 30/3/10 at 01:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74

Not my area of expertise either but I don't think that is correct.

China was a feudal society with a few rich lords running the place having the vast population as their slaves.

Guess what, the masses did not like it and Mao came along to offer an alternative, that was communism.


Although of course there was previously the Boxer Rebellion, the Taiping Rebellion, not to mention the 1911 revolution which saw the abdication of the Emperor, followed soon thereafter by the Japanese setting up a proxy state in China. And of course Britain's finest moment in foreign policy, the Opium Wars - going to war because a nation state doesn't want you selling its population narcotics in order to balance your trade deficit...

Feudal lords -> Mao in one fell swoop is a bit of an oversimplification. The socio-economic conditions which led to Mao's ability to gain control of China following WWII, and to defeat the Nationalist forces who retreated to Formosa/Taiwan, was at least in part due to Western activities in China.

carpmart - 30/3/10 at 01:50 PM

Brommers

Your very well informed? Have you studied Chinese history?

Brommers - 30/3/10 at 01:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
Brommers

Your very well informed? Have you studied Chinese history?


Not specifically. Been there a few times (the GF worked there for a year a few years back) and I've read a few books on the subject - mostly the interesting bits at the backs of guide books where they set out a potted history of the country, as opposed to the earlier bits where they have the boring stuff like where to go for dinner.

Oh, and I've read Flashman and the Dragon, which is a dashing fine yarn, dontchaknow, set at the time of the Taiping rebellion, with good old Flashie up to his usual tricks with the ladies...

Jon Ison - 30/3/10 at 03:25 PM

Having worked in China myself on one or two occasions I have no desire to go back there.

morcus - 30/3/10 at 05:43 PM

Thanks brommers, that was the kind of thing I was thinking. Also The weapons used by the Maoist to establish the PRC were supplied by America.

My screenname, and how it came to be morcus is a very, very long story that goes back ten years at least. Its not a corruption of Marcus, but a corruption of another name that itself was a corruction of the Latin word for unhealthy, Morbidus.

mangogrooveworkshop - 6/4/10 at 06:11 PM

http://www.justaskshirley.com/photos/china/wow.htm




[Edited on 6-4-10 by mangogrooveworkshop]