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mistergrumpy - 7/12/10 at 03:54 AM

I came across my first user of the GBL drug tonight. GBL is a prodrug to GBH and seems to turn into GBH in your stomach but the effects are quicker than if taken as GBH. I'd heard about him and his partner from others at work and tonight got my chance to visit. All I can say is whoa! I've seen people on the usual drugs but this stuff is waaaay out there and still only classed as a class C. It is sold as an alloy wheel cleaner or paint stripper. The man is skinny, dirty and covered in bumps and scars where he keeps falling over due to keep passing out every 30 seconds or so. He's struggling to breathe and just an absolute mess. Not long for this world I would say.
If anyone here has ever thought about giving this a go or knows anyone who is then it's just a plea to think twice.
I don't usually post about work experiences but this was really bizarre and sickening to watch.

Rocket_Rabbit - 7/12/10 at 04:10 AM

ATEOTD, who are we to stop people taking whatever substance they want to.

I don't smoke, I don't drink alcohol, and I don't use drugs - I never have and I never will because of what any substance does to your body.

However, people are individuals and you can but explain things to them and advise them of the risks.

As a Country, we should legalise all drugs and let people choose for themselves.

snapper - 7/12/10 at 07:21 AM

Rocket-Rabbit.......
A very simplistic view of a very complex problem.
I don't think you would be happy with the world you postulate.
Just my humble opinion

cliftyhanger - 7/12/10 at 08:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit


However, people are individuals and you can but explain things to them and advise them of the risks.

As a Country, we should legalise all drugs and let people choose for themselves.


Sounds like b*****ks to me.
That is the way to total anarchy. Most people are NOT capable of making decisions and need "rules" to follow.
If all drugs are legalised, I would be out of here like a shot. Before society totally broke down.

Strontium Dog - 7/12/10 at 08:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit
ATEOTD, who are we to stop people taking whatever substance they want to.

I don't smoke, I don't drink alcohol, and I don't use drugs - I never have and I never will because of what any substance does to your body.

However, people are individuals and you can but explain things to them and advise them of the risks.

As a Country, we should legalise all drugs and let people choose for themselves.


I agree with you!

All prohibition has ever done is exasperate the problem and made a lot of criminals a lot of money. This is not just an opinion but a historic fact. Not to mention that virtually harmless drugs such as Canabis with hugely beneficial medicinal properties are banned too.

I am a paid up member of the LCA

http://www.lca-uk.org/

I do not use hard drugs personaly and would recomend that you don't but it should be our right to choose to if we so wish. Counties with a more mature attitude to drugs such as Holand have far less issues as a result, especialy less crime associated with use!

marcjagman - 7/12/10 at 08:33 AM

My humble opinion is this: drug addicts should be given a choice. Either take the opportunity to clean up and contribute to society or, give them as much as they want see how long they last.

Rocket_Rabbit - 7/12/10 at 08:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by snapper
Rocket-Rabbit.......
A very simplistic view of a very complex problem.
I don't think you would be happy with the world you postulate.
Just my humble opinion

Yes, it is simple and the best ideas are

If you look in the cupboard, there are a myriad of thing that can quite easily kill us if inhaled, ingested, injected.

Why don't the government ban those?

And then you have the worlds most stupid stupid rule - you cannot buy more than 2 packs of paracetamol in a single transaction, yet you can have as many transactions as you like.

The system we have now is rediculous and pointless. People that WANT to take drugs, ARE taking drugs.

By legalising, we'd actually prevent a lot of crime by ridding the primary source of funding for top flight crims.

People who do charlie now could be taxed and given a pure product that will cause less harm.

People who smoke weed can get on with being relaxed and calm.

Of course you have the horror stories of the rages and stupid things that drugs make people do.

Obviously that's why it is deemed somewhat socially acceptable for a person to be so mind bendingly drunk, they go and smash someone over the head with a bottle or they jump into oncoming traffic for a laugh...all the persons fault though because they drank too much alcohol.

In addition, there is almost ZERO social stigma regarding the consumption of alcohol (I have never had an unsuprised reaction upon my divulgence of teetotalism ), yet if you know/knew of some one who did coke, you'd probably think they were a lower class citizen.

Of course the Medical experts will tell you how Alcohol is much worse than Marijuana, cocanine, LSD, Anphetamines, pretty much every other drug going, but, as we saw earlier this year, the Government have no intention of listening to experts

Strontium Dog - 7/12/10 at 08:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit


However, people are individuals and you can but explain things to them and advise them of the risks.

As a Country, we should legalise all drugs and let people choose for themselves.


Sounds like b*****ks to me.
That is the way to total anarchy. Most people are NOT capable of making decisions and need "rules" to follow.
If all drugs are legalised, I would be out of here like a shot. Before society totally broke down.


Sounds like you might need some sort of help if you are realy that unable to reach a rational decission for your self and require a nanny state to guide you! And what gives you the right to decide what is right for me or any one else. Sounds like the way to total facism to me

balidey - 7/12/10 at 08:51 AM

Drugs are bad mmmkay.

Very tough issue, with no clear cut sensible solution.
Yes it would be better to 'kind of' legalise some drugs to take money and control away from the criminal element. And give a better, safer drug to users.
But legalising a known bad drug would possibly make more people dependant on it.
And drugs by their nature are addictive, so giving people the 'choice' to use it or not is a silly argument. Like, I'm going to stab you, but its your choice if you bleed to death or not. Its not a simple choice to make.

So, thats why I don't really have an opinion on it. Apart from...... drugs are bad mmmkay.
I've always said, if you need drugs to make you happy, relaxed, chilled, whatever, then there is something wrong with your life. Maybe not drastically wrong, but the huge majority of the population don't need drugs.

MikeRJ - 7/12/10 at 09:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
Sounds like you might need some sort of help if you are realy that unable to reach a rational decission for your self and require a nanny state to guide you! And what gives you the right to decide what is right for me or any one else. Sounds like the way to total facism to me


There's absolutely no need for that. I totaly agree with him that it seems an awful lot of people in this country are basically unable to think for themselves and rely on the crap spouted by the gutter press. If you truly believe that legalising all drugs will solve any problems you are dreaming.

quote:
Originally posted by balidey
I've always said, if you need drugs to make you happy, relaxed, chilled, whatever, then there is something wrong with your life. Maybe not drastically wrong, but the huge majority of the population don't need drugs.


Agreed.

[Edited on 7/12/10 by MikeRJ]

jollygreengiant - 7/12/10 at 10:01 AM

Ok Rocket-Rabbit, would you want someone who is high on whatever drug to work on your, your wifes/girlfriends, kids, or close family members car. I think not. Or maybe a worse case scenario your on the operating table and the surgeon or anethetist has had a bad day and just taken something totally legal to 'relax' (because its legally ok and legally available) himself out of the stress he thinks he is under.???????????????

Liam - 7/12/10 at 10:17 AM

Drugs being legalised doesn't mean it would/should be legal to use them at any time. Alcohol is legal but you still can't drink and drive, drink at work etc etc.

That said I think the idea of legalising all drugs is stupid. I mean why stop at drugs - let's legalise everything! There'll be no crime problem at all if there are no crimes. Great! It should be my choice to do whatever the hell I want, right? Freedoooooooom.

Ivan - 7/12/10 at 10:25 AM

I tend to agree with the "legalise all drugs" group.

Anything legalised takes away the criminal element, cuts cost and reduces crime.

Also - some of the worst drugs in the world, namely alcohol and tobacco are legitimate so why not make the others also.

It's time people took responsibility for their own and their friends lives, don't binge drink or encourage others to do so, to the extent that you or they lose all sense of self preservation, which to my mind is as bad as shooting up on some illegal drug, and don't smoke and put those around you at risk.

Strontium Dog - 7/12/10 at 10:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jollygreengiant
Ok Rocket-Rabbit, would you want someone who is high on whatever drug to work on your, your wifes/girlfriends, kids, or close family members car. I think not. Or maybe a worse case scenario your on the operating table and the surgeon or anethetist has had a bad day and just taken something totally legal to 'relax' (because its legally ok and legally available) himself out of the stress he thinks he is under.???????????????


What rubbish, I'd rather a pot smoker workeds on the car than an alcoholic any day. And as to Mikes coment about no need for that, yes there is! I did not start the "you are talking bollocks" comments. The attitudes in this country are apalling! I have been lucky enought to have worked in Europe and can see how opressive this country is compared to some others.

I have also worked with and for refugees and recovering drug addicts. Addicts are going to use drugs wether they are legal are not. It's just that it's going to have a much bigger impact on society as a whole if the said drugs are expensive due to prohibition. We all know (or at least those of us with half a brain/non Daily Mail readers) that it is the crime associated with drug use/misuse that is the big problem, not the actual use.

I presume from Mikes comments that he thinks ir is OK to be operated on by a surgeon with a hang over as it is legal to drink. Or do you think that a pissed surgeon would not be allowed to go near you? If so then why do you think a drug user would be allowed to work on you if the alcohol user is not? Your argument is not reasoned!

I am sorry if any of you are offended by my comments as that is not the intention, but realy, some of you need to wake up! I do not take or advocate the use of hard drugs (I don't smoke tobacco and hardly ever drink alcohol either) personally but I'd rather the guy who does did not mug my Mum for the necessary funds to keep him supplied!

This is a very difficult subject made all the harder by the irational arguments of people with little or no real understanding of the subject or people invoved. This is fed by a media who sensationalise the issues and publish utter rubbish and false information to sell there product. The govenment refuse to listen to expert scientists recognised as the leading authorities in their fields!

Once again, please note that I do not use hard drugs and would argue against others doing so, but at the end of the day it should be your own choice, just as it is your own choice to agree or disagree with my comments! As long as I don't digress against you, what right do you have to digress against me or diside how I or any one else should live our lives?

Please do not take offence, and I don't want to get any deeper into this on a forum that should be about helping each other build cars. There are other forums more suitable for this particular debate!

IMHO

scootz - 7/12/10 at 11:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit
As a Country, we should legalise all drugs and let people choose for themselves.


I can see where you're coming from and it does make some sense on the surface of it, but it's way too complicated.

For a start, all countries would have to legalise the drug trade for it to have half a chance of succeeding. You simply cannot have a few countries who allow it as they are betraying all the others who criminalise it. They are also condoning the chain of misery and suffering that stems from the source to the end user... people trafficking, forced prostitution, unbelievable violence, etc. The drugs trade is interwoven with much of the higher-level issues of criminality in this world.

Then we have to consider that if a drug is legalised in this country then it would become subject to all the rules of consumption as per food, drink, tobacco, etc. No illegal drug that is currently dealt in this country would ever pass a consumption test due to all the poisonous bulking agents that get added along the supply chain. We simply cannot have one set of rules for drugs and another set for everything else. What kind of message does that set out?

That leaves the only other feasible option being to have the whole world legalise the production of drug making materials at source, legalise it's marketing and movement across the globe, regulate it's refinement and strength levels and tax it at every stage. Personally I have no problem with this, but it will never happen as not all nations will agree (and I can understand why!).

I suspect that many people don't take drugs, or certainly limit the amount they do take because it is illegal. Surely this is a good thing!? I don't find the arguments surrounding the consumption of alcohol and nicotine to be relevant... just because a couple of addictive and destructive substances got through the net many years ago, does not mean we should now open the floodgates for others!

Then there is the type of addiction. Heroin or crack is in a completely different ballpark to alcohol, nicotine, cannabis, etc. It ravages the user and in many (not all) cases renders them completely useless to society. This means the worst affected will not be able to hold down a job, so won't have the income to feed their addiction - not even if it's being sold legit from their local Boots the Chemist. They NEED it, but how will they get it!? The way they've always done of course... stealing, robbery, mugging, fraud, prostitution... etc etc. etc.

cliftyhanger - 7/12/10 at 12:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit


However, people are individuals and you can but explain things to them and advise them of the risks.

As a Country, we should legalise all drugs and let people choose for themselves.


Sounds like b*****ks to me.
That is the way to total anarchy. Most people are NOT capable of making decisions and need "rules" to follow.
If all drugs are legalised, I would be out of here like a shot. Before society totally broke down.


Sounds like you might need some sort of help if you are realy that unable to reach a rational decission for your self and require a nanny state to guide you! And what gives you the right to decide what is right for me or any one else. Sounds like the way to total facism to me


Nope, I reckon I am fine. Never felt the need for anything illegal to make me feel good/happy
however, the drink comparison is good. Somebody who has had a few has no idea how drunk or not they are. Many reckon they are fine, and thn do stupid things. Some are fairly harmless, some cause self harm and some harm others. People need guidance, the vast majority don't seem to have a clue (that may include me)
Society will always come up with rules that are for the good of the vasy majority. Simplist example is give 10 kids a ball in a park, they come up with rules straight away, no matter what game they choose to play. They all need boundries and so on.
Besides, I really don't want drug users/abusers near me. The ones I have come across are compulsive liars (to themselves and everybody about them) and their "habit" causes distress to all and sundry. Do they really want to live in squalor, smell like a sewer (no joke that) and have a lack of any real life. Drugs are not in the slightest bit glamorous or helpful to anybody. We have enough problems with people who cannot even manage the ones that are legal at the moment (tobacco and alcohol) so we have no chance if all drugs become legal.
I stand by the fact that society draws up its own rules which is what keep us civilised. Hence we are not allowed to drink (very much) and drive, drive as fast as we think we are safe to on the roads and so on. Take away the rules and it all collapses PDQ.
Of course, spend some time with drug addicts (I would advise against too long) before you decide.

Jasper - 7/12/10 at 12:22 PM

'I've always said, if you need drugs to make you happy, relaxed, chilled, whatever, then there is something wrong with your life. Maybe not drastically wrong, but the huge majority of the population don't need drugs.'

This is a very odd thing to say, lots of people take drugs without 'needing' to take them, they just enjoy the effects, the same way lots of people enjoy the effects of alcohol, but don't need alcohol on a daily basis.

People enjoy the effects of driving their cars fast - but they don't need to drive fast to make them happy.

I'm with others on here - cannabis should be legalised like in Holland, other drugs should be re-classified in accordance with the finding of the governements own advisors which of course they always ignore as it doesn't fit in with the Daily Mail view of England: anyone who takes drugs is in irresponsible criminal, those who drink heavily are considered normal.

Can you imagine if alcohol and cigarettes were invented now - do you think they would be made legal?

And why do people, like the post above, think all people who use illegal drugs live in squalor and steal off everyone? This is a tiny percentage and is still considerably less than the number of alcoholics living the same kind of lifestyle. Have a look at the statistics of the number of people in the UK using recreational drugs on a regular basis - I think you would be shocked. And the vast majority of these do it and lead a perfectly normal responsible life.

[Edited on 7/12/10 by Jasper]

MikeR - 7/12/10 at 12:37 PM

I think we've got a few problems that actually work against each other and therefore their is no simple solution.

Problem 1)
Drugs aren't pure. People are addicts, the more you dilute the drug the more profit you make. Lived with a nurse who worked with drug addicts. She told a harrowing story how the heroin in one area was mixed with battery acid. Addicts were rotting from the inside. One bloke had 1 (yes one) usable vein left in the medical sense. Unfortunately the only vein he could inject into was the same one they could put a drip into. Never heard what happened to him but i'd put a heck of a lot of money on him being dead now (and i don't gamble).

If we're going to change the system we need state controlled, clean drugs. How are we going to do this? Are we going to fund drug manufacturers (criminals / terrorists?) in other countries?

Problem 2)
Drugs are mostly HIGHLY addictive. This is the great thing about them, you get addicted and then the supplier has a source of income. Its why crack is so popular and dealers give away free samples.

If we allow drugs, can we really allow something that is so addictive? Do we want to destroy familes with people on crack desparate to get more and more & stealing to fund it? How is this going to stop crime?

The only way is to give it away in unlimited amounts. How do we stop people killing themselves / fund giving the drugs away?

Problem 3)
Drugs harm you. Who is going to pay to care for the people harmed by the drugs? how is society going to cope with all the extra strain on the health care system?

Problem 4)
People often don't have enough self control. This can be from eating too much, driving too fast (it is breaking a law - but hey, you don't agree with it so its fine to break it), drinking too much, smoking too much. So if people struggle to control themselves now - if you add in addictive drugs .......... what are we going to do? Sure some people do manage to control usage, but other limits help them. They know its illegal, its not available on every street corner, their is stigmatism to consuming, they know its not good for them - these all add together to help limit peoples consumption. How will we limit it in future?

(Note - i've generally said 'drugs'. I've only used one named drug in an example. I've written about drugs in general. You can include Alcohol and Nicotine. If they were discovered now they would probably be banned. We're in a situation where they are embedded into society and we're used to dealing / ignoring with the negative effects. Just because we do, this does not make it acceptable / right. For reference, i don't smoke, i do drink occasionally and rarely to excess - often i'm the one looking after friends at the end of the night as they've had too much, i did deliberately try hash cakes in Amsterdam and have friends who take substances that are classed as illegal.).

cliftyhanger - 7/12/10 at 12:40 PM

I don't think cannibis is as legal as it seems in Holland.
IIRC there are licenced "coffee shops" but there is no legal supply. I am happy to be corrected on this.
And some areas of Holland have had massive problems and taken away the licences to get rid of the drug tourist trade which created problems similar to those experienced by most large towns/cities with people who drink to (vast) excess. Seems in this country that is all OK because some big companies are making huge profits. Doesn't benefit the people living in those places (except the bar staff).
Anyway, to clarify, the whole thing is FAR more complicated than I can work out. But I stand by my comments that legalising drugs is a catastrophic idea.

scootz - 7/12/10 at 12:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
I don't think cannibis is as legal as it seems in Holland.
IIRC there are licenced "coffee shops" but there is no legal supply. I am happy to be corrected on this.
And some areas of Holland have had massive problems and taken away the licences to get rid of the drug tourist trade which created problems similar to those experienced by most large towns/cities with people who drink to (vast) excess. Seems in this country that is all OK because some big companies are making huge profits. Doesn't benefit the people living in those places (except the bar staff).
Anyway, to clarify, the whole thing is FAR more complicated than I can work out. But I stand by my comments that legalising drugs is a catastrophic idea.


Yup... they've experienced an absolute nightmare in parts of Holland with this.

mistergrumpy - 7/12/10 at 01:07 PM

I cannot condone drugs at all. I've dealt with too many people and personally seen cannabis lead on to harder drugs and also seen the results of the paranoid side of people that it creates. I've dealt with hardened criminals (armed robbers, GBH with intent etc.) who have said they're given cnnabis up for a while because of the results of their paranoia, usually inflicted on their wives/girlfriends I must add.
Lets face it it's REAL easy to get drugs anyway and its REAL easy to not get caught buying them. I've witnessed people using drugs and dealt with their subsequent overdose. I've had to deal with their gangrenous limbs and take them to hospital and I've found them dead in their own squalor. I've had loads of dealings with prostitutes and heard how rape is an occupational hazard. This is usually from heroine and crack but this lad last night was different. I've not witnessed that before which prompted me to write this.
There's absolutely no way you would want this stuff legalising and if you say it should be then you've quite simply never witnessed the results, except maybe on television.
He was eating sausage and mash from a wooden spoon like he'd not eaten in weeks. His flat was a poo hole mess and filthy (all owned by home on a mortgage I might add. GBL was his downfall and lead to his job loss) He was conscious for around 40 seconds then his head would drop and he would crash head first into the floor or his plate so that he had mash potatoes in his greasy hair and his head was just scarred and swolled. I had to keep sitting him down to stop him landing on his head!
This is a class C drug that's purchased via the internet as an alloy wheel cleaner, so readily available and I'm telling you there's no way that you could viably make it legal. To legalise it would attract interest from new people and there'd be bodies all over the floor with little twitching feet and battered heads not knowing where they were and covered in shite and snot.

cd.thomson - 7/12/10 at 01:15 PM

as with everything, moderation is key

Jasper - 7/12/10 at 01:15 PM

I have an older retired friend who has lived in Amsterdam for many years now and has a different view on this. They have less problems on a Saturday night from people being stoned than Brighton does with people drinking - that is for sure. It's never going to be perfect, humans seem to like to party some of the time. The licensed coffee shops are well controlled and the situation there is stable and well organised. I was there a couple of months ago and can honestly say it was one of the friendliest and most charming cities I've ever been to.

As for MikeR's comments than all drugs are addictive and they all harm you - well, that again is just more Daily Mail nonsense. Drugs like LSD and Ecstasy for instance have no addictive qualities at all and do the body no physical harm, cannibis is also not physically addictive and again does no harm to your body - you can smoke it for years then stop and have no physical cravings at all (except for the nicotine if you've been smoking tobacco with it). If you take away a serious alcoholics drink he can die from the withdrawals, it's physically addcitve stuff and the brain's chemistry changes over time to deal with it, take away the alcohol and you can have serious problems, hence why they are usually weened off with something like valium.

You've never going to get a real view of what's going on with drugs in the UK from reading the newspapers, that's for sure. And yes, it is a very complicated issue with no definitive answers - trouble is most people wouldn't even begin to acknowledge the actual evidence and research as shown by the Horizon programme on drugs last year. For instance Ecstasy has been shown to be an extremely low risk drug with over 200,000 regular users, and yet they are very very few cases of people ending up in hostipal from it or having long term damaging effects. The scientists on the programmed advised it should be a class b or c drug (I can't remember which) and yet it still classed with Heroin. So are we telling our kids that Herion is the same risk as Ecstasy? So when our kids go clubbing a meet other young people taking it and seemingly haing a great time do they then think - well, if Heroin is classed as dangerous as Ecstasy then that must be ok to take too? See what a nonsense the current system is? The government were presented with this research and ignored it completely.

Why is it you can buy alcohol on every street corner 24 hours a day with almost zero control. At least in Europe (France, German) it's much harder to buy alcohol. There is always pieces on the news saying how worried everybody is with alcohol consumption - so why do our councils give almost anybody a lisence to sell it? Why don't we make it available at bars, off licenses and supermarkets only? Because the government earn too much money from it and they all like a drink but frown upon drugs.

Peteff - 7/12/10 at 01:38 PM

I'm sorry but you've all missed the important point of this post, is it any good at cleaning alloy wheels? I don't come on here to read people's opinions on legalising drugs but realise it is a heated topic, I see the result of them having had things stolen including cars and know what I think but I will not burden anyone else with my opinion even in non car chat. I accept mister Grumpy's warning and see why he's probably grumpy now. I know a local chap who was famous for the amount of LSD he used as a youth and his brain is now mush and the number of people who have died as a result of taking rave ( E's and whizz) drugs is well documented Jasper so don't try to justify those as candidates for being legalised.

[Edited on 7/12/10 by Peteff]

Jasper - 7/12/10 at 01:51 PM

Sorry, did I say Ecstacy should be legalised?

I think not, I'm just agreeing with the scientists who think it should be reclassified correctly due to the harm it causes to the user and to society - I still think it should be illegal. We can all tell anecdotal horror stories, but I can guarantee you the vast majority of people will have more stories about alcohol killing or harming friends or family than there will ever be on recreational drugs.

Here's some statistics for you:

Ecstasy

Deaths associated with different illegal drugs are also difficult to judge accurately. One exception is ecstasy with over 250 ecstasy-related deaths being reported between 1999 and 2004. [4]

Alcohol

Estimates of annual alcohol-related deaths in England and Wales vary from 5,000 to 40,000. This includes deaths from cirrhosis of the liver and other health problems from long-term drinking, deliberate and accidental overdose, traffic deaths, fatal accidents while drunk etc. [2]

Here's the web site these stats came from:

http://www.drugscope.org.uk/resources/faqs/faqpages/how-many-people-die-from-drugs

Table 1 Drug-related deaths in England and Wales 2000 to 2004[4]
Cocaine 575
Amphetamine 384
Ecstasy 227
Solvents 246[3]
Opiates (heroin, morphine & methadone) 4,976
Alcohol 25,000 - 200,000 approx.
Tobacco half a million approx (UK - [1]

Table 2
Number of deaths England and Wales in 2003 and 2004 (substance is mentioned on the death certificate) [4]
2003 2004
Cocaine 113 147
All Amphetamines 66 83
Ecstasy 33 48
Solvents 42 [3] 45 [3]
Opiates (heroin, morphine & methadone) 766 944
Cannabis 11 16
All deaths 2445 2598

[Edited on 7/12/10 by Jasper]

MikeR - 7/12/10 at 02:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
As for MikeR's comments than all drugs are addictive and they all harm you


Thats a bit of a miss quote - i said "drugs are 'MOSTLY' highly addictive.

I accept / agree that some are not addictive - although the effects of the drug / the act of taking them can be. I believe (could be wrong) nicotine's effects leave the body in 48 hours, unfortunately people still have long term addiction to it due to their body / brain craving the effects.

I think 'e' is an interesting debate when it comes to drugs. Its one of the few i think research should be conducted into legallising a state manufactured version. I'm not saying it should be legalised, but we should research and consider the reconmendations.

p.s. tip - never go to a random small town in Holland and try and buy 'coke' from a guy behind a bar. They get very confused and then upset with you. Seems you need to ask for cola, not coke

Jasper - 7/12/10 at 03:27 PM

Yeah - you've highlighted a major issue whenever people try to discuss this subject. The term 'drug user' seems to include your man chronically addicted to heroin (or GBL for that matter) and your other man who might smoke a joint on occassion, have the odd Ecstacy or line of coke at a party and drink in moderation.

Would a man who drinks alcohol in moderation label himself with the same term as the man sitting on a park bench with a can of Special Brew? They are both 'Alcohol Users' but behave in a totally different way.

What does really worry me is what started this thread off - new untested untried and unresearched drugs that suddenly appear on the internet - stuff like Meow Meow, GHB (GBL) and whatever new thing they come up with next. This stuff is potentially very dangerous but seemingly very easy to get hold of. Surely as you say if a party drug like Ecstacy was properly regulated in some way it would take some of the danger of these news drugs away, but then again probably not as there are always people who want to try the next 'thing' no matter what the risks.

Strontium Dog - 7/12/10 at 06:14 PM

Haha! Back in from the job I was doing and I thought this would be raging!

Someone told me today that more people die in the UK from bee stings every year than from taking ecstasy. Don't know if it's true but sounds likely, so bees have got to go! I also believe it takes about 2 kilos of canabis dropped from a great hight to do you any real harm, pre psycotics aside! (And we don't need them anyway, or is that a psycoticist comment?)

At the end of the day it should be about freedom of choice with the condition that you don't do harm to others by intent or willfull neglect. People die racing every year, and many on the roads to work as well. Quick, ban all unnecessary car journeys and all racing immediately it is obviously bad for some peoples health! And so on it goes

It's worth looking up the effects of caffeine withdrawl too, now that's hardcore.

JoelP - 7/12/10 at 06:51 PM

drugs are mostly habit forming and pretty unconstructive. I actually know two lads who developed mental issues from smoking too much weed, one was badly off in High Royds, the other just unable to deal with the paranoia most people get when not used to it.

I will agree the drugs laws are a total joke, as i know a lad who is importing vast quantities of legal highs, and is vat registered for it! They have a long line of synthetics to work through as each becomes illegal.

I do find myself somewhat isolated in my anti drug views as we all were high as kites as teenagers, and most of my old friends still are. But as said, it gets you nowhere.

cd.thomson - 7/12/10 at 06:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
drugs are mostly habit forming and pretty unconstructive.


so is having a tommy tank

JoelP - 7/12/10 at 07:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cd.thomson
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
drugs are mostly habit forming and pretty unconstructive.


so is having a tommy tank


and games consoles, which is why i dont have one!

scootz - 7/12/10 at 07:29 PM

Speaking of games consoles... I bought a PS3 when they first came out and only bought my first game last month!

I used to love Tomb Raider and Doom on the PS1 back in the day, so my first purchase was Tomb Raider: Underworld. Why can't things just stay the same! I can't operate Lara any more and am in real danger of losing interest as it's just so complex and frustrating

Think I'll go up to the attic and fetch down my Atari for a game of Pong!

JoelP - 7/12/10 at 08:08 PM

Pong was awesome, if thats the one with bouncing balls that split up

scootz - 7/12/10 at 08:10 PM

T'was indeed!

MikeR - 7/12/10 at 10:07 PM

tangent alerty -> Atari spent a lot of time tweeking the game play of pong to make it as enjoyable (addictive) as possible.

scootz - 7/12/10 at 10:10 PM

Jasper - 8/12/10 at 10:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Speaking of games consoles... I bought a PS3 when they first came out and only bought my first game last month!

I used to love Tomb Raider and Doom on the PS1 back in the day, so my first purchase was Tomb Raider: Underworld. Why can't things just stay the same! I can't operate Lara any more and am in real danger of losing interest as it's just so complex and frustrating

Think I'll go up to the attic and fetch down my Atari for a game of Pong!



Oh that's really good to hear, I used to love playing computer games then about a year ago I started to find they were getting really hard (or I was just getting old!). I tried playing Rainbow 6 I think it was on the PC and couldn't get past the first level! I've been tempted to get a PS3 to play GT5 but I know I'll play it for about a week then get stuck.

I think I'll stick with Super Mario Kart on the Wii, I can just about cope with that!

MikeR - 8/12/10 at 12:11 PM

I do love how lots of people say that canabis isn't bad for you - seems most professionals think it causes long term issues and medium term paranoia .......... which others on here seem to back up.

Probably safe on small infrequent doeses ......... but when does it become a risk?

Jasper - 8/12/10 at 02:21 PM

I don't think anybody would say smoking cannabis has NO risk or isn't bad for you - eat too many donuts and you'll probably end up with high cholesterol etc etc.

It's the amount of risk and damage that's important here, and cannabis has regularly shown to be a much lower heath risk generally than most other intoxicants including alcohol. Would you rather be a bit paranoid, or have cirrohis of the liver?

[Edited on 8/12/10 by Jasper]

Strontium Dog - 8/12/10 at 07:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
I do love how lots of people say that canabis isn't bad for you - seems most professionals think it causes long term issues and medium term paranoia .......... which others on here seem to back up.

Probably safe on small infrequent doeses ......... but when does it become a risk?


Where on earth do you get this tosh from? I am in my mid/late 40's and most of my friends are too or are older. Some of these hold senior positions. I have been a relatively heavy toker for over 30 years as have at least 80% of the people I know probabaly more! No isues amongst any of us more than the usual problems people sometimes experience. None that I know have had adverse effects from using Mary Jane! Most scientists actually agree with this, who do you think is a profesional? And yes I know some of those too. One guy, a nuero specialist who helped with the cannabis trials in hospitals. He is a convinced of the benefits of using herb. Then there's the two MS sufferers I personaly know, the only thing that helps them is a smoke, but perhaps they should not do it any more as some misguided individuals don't like it.

Now lets consider the damage that alchohol causes! I can point to several deaths of people I used to know from direct use of, or from being killed by a pissed driver! (Olly you are still missed mate). Grrr!.

No problem there though as it is legal to drink your self to death and the other driver toped himself at the same time, you might even get a liver on the NHS so you can keep going a bit longer if you're lucky!

I really don't want to keep on with this, but it really makes my blood boil when people know vitualy nothing about the subject they are so happy to pontificate about Daily Mail readers, this means YOU!

Right, I'm off to roll a fat one before practising my brain surgery techniques on the cat, .......again!

Out of interest, this guy (link below) was considered a clever chap, perhaps he is the sort of professional we should take notice of!

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/63.html

Strontium Dog - 8/12/10 at 09:09 PM

Some wise words!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5UBNjXfIfs

MikeRJ - 8/12/10 at 10:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
I have been a relatively heavy toker for over 30 years as have at least 80% of the people I know probabaly more! No isues amongst any of us more than the usual problems people sometimes experience.



You seem to come across as quite aggressive though; isn't that another symptom of long term use?

Strontium Dog - 8/12/10 at 10:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
I have been a relatively heavy toker for over 30 years as have at least 80% of the people I know probabaly more! No isues amongst any of us more than the usual problems people sometimes experience.



You seem to come across as quite aggressive though; isn't that another symptom of long term use?


If you say so, you are the expert it seems, although I think you may be confusing pot with something else! Personally though I'd go with Harvard Proffesor of Psycology Mr.Grinspoon but I guess he is not one of the experts someone was going on about! In most people a long term use tends to lead to pacifistic tendancies and a love of the arts, maybe I'm the exception!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Grinspoon

[Edited on 8/12/10 by Strontium Dog]