Apparently our far-eastern friends have baulked at the size of aunty's debts.
There's an election looming...
What do you think?
Neil.
There are various rumours doing the rounds that deal old MG Rover will be in administration by Friday (the 8th of April) if their Chinese talks
fail.
Apparently our far-eastern friends have baulked at the size of aunty's debts.
There's an election looming...
What do you think?
Neil.
Seems the bail out will come
http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=625952
MG Rover's future in doubt despite loan
By Tim Webb and Clayton Hirst
03 April 2005
MG Rover's rescue deal with the Chinese car maker SAIC is hanging in the balance, despite the Government's last-ditch offer of a £100m
sweetener loan to the beleaguered British company.
SAIC is holding what could be decisive talks with UK government officials in China this weekend about its planned joint venture with the loss-making
company and the terms of the loan.
One condition of the loan, which the Government disclosed on Friday, is that the state-owned Chinese company gives assurances that it will not pull
out of the deal.
SAIC, which is growing increasingly concerned about MG Rover's financial position, is considering its next move.
The Independent on Sunday understands that the Government has offered to lend the money to keep MG Rover afloat until a deal is signed, but expects to
be repaid within six months. SAIC wants more time to repay the money.
The exact terms of the loan have not yet been worked out.
But if the Government insists on early repayment, SAIC could walk away. Failure to do a deal with the Chinese would push MG Rover into administration,
probably within weeks, with the loss of up to 6,500 jobs at its Longbridge plant.
This would be highly embarrassing to the Government, with a general election just weeks away. MG Rover denied that the deal, which could still be
signed later this month, is in jeopardy. SAIC declined to comment.
Another condition of the government loan is that the four directors of Phoenix Venture Holdings, the company that owns MG Rover, contribute some of
their own money. "The Phoenix Four" rescued MG Rover from closure in 2000 when they bought it from BMW for a nominal £10. But they have been
criticised for setting up a £12.9m executive pension fund and for paying themselves large salaries, and have been accused of "asset
stripping" the business.
MG Rover has been in negotiations with SAIC since last summer. It had said that it expected the agreement to be signed in January or February this
year. But in the past week it is understood that the directors of Phoenix Venture Holdings made a series of financial disclosures that have left SAIC
seriously concerned about the deal.
These disclosures involve the level of liabilities SAIC would take on if it set up the car-making joint venture. SAIC is understood to be dismayed
that these disclosures were made at such a late stage. The disclosures could include how much money the Chinese would have to invest in MG Rover and
the scale of the company's losses, as well as MG Rover's pension and redundancy liabilities.
A spokesman for MG Rover denied that the company was late to reveal the full scale of its problems to the Chinese.
The timing of MG Rover's potential demise could not have come at a worse time for the Government. Longbridge is in the Labour MP Richard
Burden's Birmingham Northfield constituency. The Redditch constituency of Trade minister Jacqui Smith is nearby. Studies have shown that the
collapse of MG Rover could affect 50,000 workers in the West Midlands. This helps to explain why Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Patricia Hewitt, the
Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, have pledged unprecedented support to the ailing company.
One senior Whitehall source said: "Part of the problem was that MG Rover only recently disclosed to the Chinese the full scale of the problems
and liabilities at the company." MG Rover denies this.
Ministers are working on a plan B should MG Rover go into administration. With little prospect of finding another buyer and with EU rules preventing
the Government artificially propping up the firm, DTI officials are figuring out how budgets could be diverted to help re-train those who would lose
their jobs.
4 April 2005 23:18
independent .
It's hard to see a way out for them.
The model range is beyond funny apart from a couple of the Larger MG badged cars.
I fear for the workforce.
the govt are not allowed by eec rules to give free money to a company. so, they would have to some way justify a loan on sound financial grounds.
However, i think the current owners are in it for short term financial gain - apparently the four of em pay more into their pension fund than all the
bmw directors do.
8,000 jobs, and all the support industries around them may make the govt do something. but perhaps not.
and at the end of the day, would you buy a chinese based rover?
the indian made cityrover has been a disaster, only 5,000 sold in a year, and you can pick one up new for less than 5k.
its sad - all the great names of the british motor industry have now condensed into the basket case which is now rover.
atb
steve
Is it any wonder so many people are building their own cars?
Rover is more likely to go to the wall because of news stories exagerating the problems. People hear the news and think "better not buy a rover
then". people not buying rovers because of made up news stories is what will make them go to the wall.
SAIC have not signed the deal YET. if they do, rover will continue to be OK and will probably improve due to the cash injection bringing forward the
new models.
Rover's worst enemy is the British news media and the people who actually believe what they say.
The hideous Indian thing aside Rover management have made a decent stab of repairing the massive damage BMW did (for reasons we can only guess at) but
they are straved of cash and need a better platform for the 45 based range than the old Honda one they have just now. The main problem with the
chassis is the Honda designed rear suspension but since the 45 was designed the trend has been to follow the lead of the awful Ford Focus and
build taller small and medium sized cars.
My guess is the Chinese are playing hard ball and this actually suits Rover management as a tool to screw some cash out UK plc - certainly the
timing on the run up to a UK election is interesting.
As for EU rules on goverment aid to industry it dosen't seem to stop many western european countries supporting flag carrier airlines at levels
that make Rover's debt seem trivial.
[Edited on 5/4/05 by britishtrident]
BMC, Leyland, Austin or MG Rover the righting has been on the wall ever since the Japanese started fitting radios to thier cars.
The only thing not written on the wall was a date. Though I expect you could find the date writen down some where in Nostradamus.
the all new Rover 45 replacement is said to be a very good car. Rover has said that it can be in production very quickly after they get the cash to
pay for the tooling.
If it is as good as they say and they do get it into production, it could be the key to a Rover revival.
There is another factor to Rover's success. The japanese overwhelimgly buy japanese cars, as do the Germans, the Americans and to a lesser
extent, the French. We don't buy our own cars, we buy Japanese, german and French cars predominantly.
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
There is another factor to Rover's success. The japanese overwhelimgly buy japanese cars, as do the Germans, the Americans and to a lesser extent, the French. We don't buy our own cars, we buy Japanese, german and French cars predominantly.
sadly (and i like and have had several british cars) a lot of mainstream brit cars havent had a good reputation or press. This is a problem when there
are 30+ other marques out there. take the following :
rover 820 - depreciates like heck (i had one)
metro - falls apart in a crash (i had 2)
montego - never really popular (guess what - i had one)
maestro - not a classic (guess what...... i had one)
rover 200 et al - all 9+ years old, reputation for exploding K seires.
rover 400 - as above based on a honda that was stopped yonks ago.
rover 600 - not a bad car - (oh yes, another gusto owned car)
mini - bit of a classic, which kinda excuses its antique and uncomfortable to drive nature (i had 2)
austin allegro - pretty hated car - didnt have one!
as above for morris marina.
rover havnt had a car thats shone above all the competition for years. I gave up several years ago buying brit, cos there are other things to choose
from out there.
cars are not like fridges. you buy a fridge and keep it 15 years till it conks out. cars are a personal thing. you dont hear people saying they like
indesit and not electrolux. people buy cars for reasons of image, practicality, performance, etc.
will a car made in britain from chinese parts be able to compete with the other 30+ manufacturers.
sadly, I severly doubt it.
most car companies are either state owned (renault) or are part of a group, like ford or daimler chrysler. How is a small company with 8k employees
building imported bits gonna compete when the rest of the industry has either merged, or is building similar models based on a common platform to keep
costs down.
atb
steve
i started my working life at a BL dealer,the cars were outdated then, they failed to up date the oily bits and a quick re-hash of the shiney bits
didnt do the biz for customers either.
it is a pitty but they have been in the poo for as long as i can remember and this could be the end.rip aunty
According to a report in Autocar magazine the Chinese have been financially supprting Rover for a few months, in return for which they have already
been given the Rover and MG brands. All that really remains now is the tooling for manufacture of the cars, and the longer it goes on the less it is
worth.
Unfortunately, the bad publicity is likely to kill off Rover unless they get a good tie in with the Chinese.
After many years of struggling I think BMW have a lot to answer for as they had some very strange ideas about what Rover should be, and how they must
never compete with BMW. That is why the Rover 75 is so unsporty - but just imagine if it had been introduced with the MG ZT spec. Many magazines have
rated that higher than equivalent BMW's in most areas, but MG Rover have never had the right resources to promote it, and have always had the
press commenting about the imminent death of the company putting people off buying for fear of losing warranty and support.
even with the mg spec, its still a boring shape, old bloke mobile.
i do like the interior of the std model, but the outside of the car is tosh.
sticking a spoiler on the back and painting it blue doesnt stop it looking like you need a pork pie had to drive one.
the predecessor, the 600 was a more current looking car.
atb
steve
Steve,
You forgot the Maxi (guess what, I had one) - the only car I have ever actively hated, it was wrong in so many ways. It didn't deserve it's
place on the road.
(who said "don't prevaricate, say what you really mean!" )
The crappiest car I have ever owned - and I have owned quite a few over the years.
David
Agree with the comments on here (smart51 and british trident).
I've tried to stick to Rover when possible, and as soon as I was able to get rid of the french turd that we used to park on our driveway, I
did.
And bought an MG R ZT260.
Absolutely fantastic car. Solidly built, comfy, quite quick but not very economical.
Currently want to buy the wife a ZR but have to figure out how to pay for it first.
People (media) keep going on about Rover's dept, but didn't ford lose £800,000,000 last year! Surely that would make them quite bust.
Chrysler Benz or whatever they call themselves aren't terribly profitable.
If Rover go under and I really hope they don't, I am going to be mightily f'd off about it.
It will be a very very sad day,
What I can't understand is why a share offering hasn't be made. Sod the rest of the world, surely there must be enough people in this
country who would be willing to buy £500 of shares to save a company with a great heritage, huge potential once 45 replacement productionised, and one
of the last great BRITISH manufacturing companies!
What BMW did was strip a company back to the bones, holding back any possible competition from MG.
I'd bet a tenner they made a profit selling LR to Ford.
ATB
Simon
My company has just made a massive investment in MG Rover... judging by the rumours coming from board level we have made a major mistake as it looks
like it will be an assembly plant with components made in Shanghi, sub-assembled in Shanghi then shipped over here for the remaining 100 or so staff
to finish assemble and polish up, then badge it a British car. Makes me laugh. Get it over and doen with for God's sake! The Eastern wage average
is £35/month at Director level - how the hell can we compete with that???
What happens to the £16M that the four directors have ringfenced for their pension fund I want to know? Doesn't mention that on the news does it?
I dont think many people would put 500 quid in a f^&ked company.
The british car industry hasnt made money for what, 40 years?
why should rover, with help from the chinese, turn things around when there are more powerful competitors out there.
my point about the fridge was meant to explain that cars are an emotional thing. people often choose a car cos it fits their self image. I dont think
a chinese made car would do that.
I would buy rover if I could. but they dont make anything i want. as they dropped turnover by 17% this month, seems other people think the same.
if people are not even buying the cars, why would they put their hard earned into a combine thats not made money for 40 years?
atb
steve
[Edited on 6/4/05 by stephen_gusterson]
Ok so - turn things on it's head for a moment. If you give me a cheque for £500 on the understanding that I could turn it into £5000 before I go
bust do you take that chance? 
That's what ALL major suppliers to Rover have done for years. The reason why Rover is failing is pretty easy and can be levelled at most failing
automotive producers. The lack of vision. If you do not produce what the public want - you are doomed be it British, English based in the UK or not.
People will only swallow sh!te for so long...
Looks like Rover have thrown a 7. The political writers have the obituaries published and the receivers are moving in.
Shame.
Wonder who'll buy the name and what will they re-badge?
Neil.
this article shows just about how stuffed they are.
all the silver has allready been sold
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4423725.stm
Sounds like they have been stitched up doesn't it?
So - we have got no UK Rover badge... and the new CITY ROVER... jesus - who designed that? 
IMS the writing has been on the wall for years!
Have a look at these links:
http://www.xpower-mg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22616
http://www.xpower-mg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22609
ATB
Simon
While I find it a sad day that Rover is going down the pan I can understand why. Perhaps if the company had invested in new technology instead of
using designs from the '50s for the next 40 years then the current predicament would not be so dire. British Leyland/Austin Rover/Rover MG never
recovered from the dark days of the seventies. While all the other big producers had a Worldwide market to draw from in terms of shared platforms,
technology and funding, poor old BL had to cope with militant unions and wildcat strikes which held up development, made the cars expensive to make,
and reduced the export market as poor supply and uncompetitive prices reduced demand, especially when the European market had a vast choice of
cheaper, more interesting cars?
Don't forget, there is already a precedent for the decline of Rover. You only need to look at the decline of the British motorcycle industry to
see how bad things can be for a company that relies on past glories for success.
One other point. The £100,000,000 bridging "loan" that was needed, as a self employed person myself, if I ever run into difficulty and find
myself facing bankruptcy, can I get a £16,666 "loan" from the Government to help me out with no guarantee of success?
The only Rovers that have been sold here (for years) are the Range Rovers and they're held in high esteem by liberals who shop at high end
boutiques.
My hope that Rover might sell off the rights to produce the alum. V8 they bought from GM (aka Buick 215 here) to some company who'd drop them
into 2500 lb roadsters. . . with FI, I understand they're even smog-legal.
quote:
Originally posted by carcentric
The only Rovers that have been sold here (for years) are the Range Rovers and they're held in high esteem by liberals who shop at high end boutiques.
My hope that Rover might sell off the rights to produce the alum. V8 they bought from GM (aka Buick 215 here) to some company who'd drop them into 2500 lb roadsters. . . with FI, I understand they're even smog-legal.
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
quote:
Originally posted by carcentric
The only Rovers that have been sold here (for years) are the Range Rovers and they're held in high esteem by liberals who shop at high end boutiques.
My hope that Rover might sell off the rights to produce the alum. V8 they bought from GM (aka Buick 215 here) to some company who'd drop them into 2500 lb roadsters. . . with FI, I understand they're even smog-legal.
carcentric,
The ally V8 rights were one of the things bmw gave away when they sold R/Rover. . . .Simon
The rights to the Rover V8 engine were for sale when Land Rover stopped making the last version of the Discovery as it was the last volume user of it. Don't know if anyone bought them though. It almost certainly would be very expensive to make it compliant with upcoming emission legislation for Europe and the US.
quote:
Originally posted by andyps
The rights to the Rover V8 engine were for sale when Land Rover stopped making the last version of the Discovery as it was the last volume user of it. Don't know if anyone bought them though. It almost certainly would be very expensive to make it compliant with upcoming emission legislation for Europe and the US.
Didn't they start off as a Buick from U.S. originally?
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Didn't they start off as a Buick from U.S. originally?
Looks like Uncle Tony's getting a bit nervous about those marginal seats....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4447323.stm
Autocar had a little peice about the ZTT260's (rear-drive V8) going for £20K new. Now there's a thought...
Cheers,
Neil
Would he have given the money if there wasn't an election coming soon? Me, cynical, never.........
That £150m would have helped MG Rover introduce a new car model, which would have increased sales, which might have helped secure a deal with another
manufacturer, which would have secured the jobs, which would have meant we still had a domestic volume car manufacturer.
But Tony is sorry about it, so all is well!!!
150m would have done bugger all
it took 6.5m just to pay wages for a week.
new cars cost 100s of millions to produce. thats why so many manufacturers collaborate and use common platforms.
if a worker at rover gets 24k a year inc overtime, and there are 6,000 or em, thats 144m friggin quid on wages alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and they need more than 1 model.
figures i saw today were that 10 years ago rover had 10% of the uk market. Now, its 3%.
I think its terribly tragic for the 6,000 an another industrial employer gone west. But sometime you have to admit defeat.
All they own is the MG name. they dont own the plant, or even the rover name.
150m wont even do that much for the workers - 40m alone is needed for the stat redundancies. Then as it was said on the radio that the money is going
to a local agency to use as they see fit, they said it would be used to subsidise jobs whilst other work was found. so the govt will get some back as
tax anyway!!!!!!!
atb
steve
[Edited on 15/4/05 by stephen_gusterson]
quote:
Originally posted by andyps
Would he have given the money if there wasn't an election coming soon? Me, cynical, never.........
That £150m would have helped MG Rover introduce a new car model, which would have increased sales, which might have helped secure a deal with another manufacturer, which would have secured the jobs, which would have meant we still had a domestic volume car manufacturer.
But Tony is sorry about it, so all is well!!!
My dad said that a rover spokesman was on tv the other week and he said that the bridgin loan offer of 120m was no where near enough, and needed to be
at least 10 times that.
So theres no way 150m would have saved Rover....
David
so, if blair did nothing, he would be a heartless bastard!
how does he win?
doenst it make sense to pay the workers for a week while they sort out whats happening?
atb
steve
why should they be paid though? its not a state-run company, so its nothing to do with the government really.
yes that many job lossess will have a small overall effect on the national economy, but why should the government help Rover workers specifically and
not anyone else who is being made redundant?
I saw a thing on the news earlier where some workers families were campaigning for government help to pay their mortgages and car loans. WTF?
the difference is that its 6k people in the one area all on the job market at the same time. they could, of course, get a job at a local engineering
company, but they are all probably also stuffed by losing rover's business.
what should be taken into account is that this isnt really redundancy. if you are made redundant from a solvent company, they pay the stat redundancy
and normal wages in leiu of notice. all the rover lot are getting is stat redundancy, - no notice at all - which is capped at 280 a week. so, if you
have been there 10 years, you get 2,800 and are in competition with 6k plus other people all trying to get a job.
there are only 40 checkouts in my local tescos, and they dont seem to be manned by hairy car workers. the rate for working all night at tescos is less
than 5.50 an hr.
im glad my 17 year old is doing business studies and not following my footsteps in electronis design. no one makes anything in this country any
friggin more
atb
steve
[Edited on 15/4/05 by stephen_gusterson]