) [Edited on 18/7/05 by NS Dev]
Like me, perhaps some of you like to pigeon hole people. That is, divide people up into certain categories. Sometimes those categories come naturally,
sometimes they're a previously unidentified yet commonly felt type. When given a suitably snappy title one can immediately map that title to this
category. A prime example is 'Chavs'. If someone doesn't know what a chav is, when you start to describe the characteristics
assocoiated with them, the penny soon drops and the listener will soon start to nod knowingly. That type of person has already been internally
categorised and your help has merely provided a common noun for it.
We can all think of various pigeon holed types; from a tweed wearing Bentley driving toff with a stately home and a shotgun crocked over his arm to a
piss-soaked tramp drinking White Lightening cider from a brown paper bag in the park.
The recent thread about knife-weilding teenagers and the general "Going to hell in a hand-cart" (I love that expression) threads that have
occurred have made me think. As many of the correspondants were broadly in agreement about the state of social affairs, does this mean that we are a
social type. And why?
Brought together by this forum on a common quest for car-building (cheaper the better) information, this gives rise to a chicken/egg situation. Are
the more reactionary morally 'traditional' elements of society (myself included) drawn to practical persuits inline with self-betterment? Do
we admire the techniques/industries of the past and in doing so absorb an inference of it's morality and traditional values, OR does an interest
in engineering, self-learning, practical skills derive this stance on it's own?
Does that make any sense?
Cheers,
Neil.
p.s. I realise that this is a generalisation, but that's the point about catgorisation.
it does make sense, and I don't know the answer! I have a fairly diverse range of friends from a smattering of entirely different backgrounds,
but some sense of engineering or mechanical nous seems to feature in all of them, either by occupation or hobby. Having said that, character-wise they
are totally and utterly unalike and range from very eccentric and totally off-the-wall, to pretty dull and boring! (I am probably nearer the latter
end of that scale in most respects!)
[Edited on 18/7/05 by NS Dev]
this is something that Ive thought about too.
Ive been posting for a while now, and enjoy the board- useful, generally entertaining etc etc.
but, the people on it, most of whom i like, are far more "traditional" and "conservative" in their outlook than my own social
scene..
is that because they are generally male, white, anglo saxon, with dull engineering viewpoints?
hmmmm.....
Terrible thing this car building, I have to use knives and hammers, all sorts of weapons in fact, gas axes, grinders etc.
Ten minutes with the gas axe soon relieves me of my pent up aggression.
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
it does make sense, and I don't know the answer! I have a fairly diverse range of friends from a smattering of entirely different backgrounds, but some sense of engineering or mechanical nous seems to feature in all of them, either by occupation or hobby. Having said that, character-wise they are totally and utterly unalike and range from very eccentric and totally off-the-wall, to pretty dull and boring! (I am probably nearer the latter end of that scale in most respects!
[Edited on 18/7/05 by NS Dev]
The eccentric end of the scale is the best place to be in my book Mike!!
I'll read into that answer where i'm at then. 12 year old lad wants to come to my bbq now he knows what i'm doing with the leaf
shredder ...... his mum wasn't keen for some reason!
My friends come from a wide variety of different back grounds and all have different for lack of a better term skills. Some are into computers, others
music, some film. But when I think about myself and all my firends do share one common denominator, we are all open, friendly, sensitive people.
As for myself of this forum I'm not sure that I fall easily into the engineering pigeon hole.... for me it is just a love of creating things
(well that and the pretty ladies) rather than what seems to be most of society today who's only love is destruction. Personally I blame lego.....
the sweedish made me abnormal!
quote:
Originally posted by Jumpy Guy
this is something that Ive thought about too.
Ive been posting for a while now, and enjoy the board- useful, generally entertaining etc etc.
but, the people on it, most of whom i like, are far more "traditional" and "conservative" in their outlook than my own social scene..
is that because they are generally male, white, anglo saxon, with dull engineering viewpoints?
hmmmm.....
i think i get referred to as a 'petrol head' by like minded people, diy/mechanic type by those at work who know a little about what i do at
home but verging down to lowly 'car nerd/geek' or the like with those who are ignorant of my hobbies.
Ned.
ps did i miss the point?
[Edited on 18/7/05 by ned]
quote:
Originally posted by Noodle
Brought together by this forum on a common quest for car-building (cheaper the better) information, this gives rise to a chicken/egg situation. Are the more reactionary morally 'traditional' elements of society (myself included) drawn to practical persuits inline with self-betterment? Do we admire the techniques/industries of the past and in doing so absorb an inference of it's morality and traditional values,
OR does an interest in engineering, self-learning, practical skills derive this stance on it's own?
) enough to do a
religion one yet either. despite trying to wind Nat up most people do think i'm eccentric.
5 years building a car helps reinforce the view, along with the leaf blower bbq and the fact i like trying different things and enjoying life. (As
long as i don't get in other peoples way too much)
I think the thing with this forum is we're a very diverse bunch with a couple of similar traits. We've all got the ambition to be creative
and are doing something about it. As someone else says, it does set us apart from a heck of a lot of people.
Creed, religion, money aren't something that join us and hence will be different.
think about ten topics that are quite current and i doubt any people would agree
with all ten of them and if they by chance they do...they won't agree on the solution
some could be classed more liberal than others and maybe some a bit to extreme,
and theres a big void in the middle with plenty of people dotted all over the place,
its like the so called "class system" theres now classes within classes within classes,
and in each of those there's a lot if boring thru to outrageous to oddball characters
really who cares as long as your good people i can mix with most types of people the only ones i can't stand is those who look down their nose
at you regardless who you are or what you do we are all the same
variety can make us all interesting even the nutjobs
doesnt everyone over the age of approx 25 or so see things in society as generally getting worse? Those under that age have too little life experience
to stand back and make an assessment.
atb
steve
Just two points I'd like to make.
Everyone I have met from this forum, all different in many ways, have been some of the kindest and most helpful people I have ever met, and I meet and
deal with a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds on a daily basis.
Also, the egg must have come first and was merely laid by two other animals that had cross bred.
Pat...
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
doesnt everyone over the age of approx 25 or so see things in society as generally getting worse? Those under that age have too little life experience to stand back and make an assessment.
atb
steve
now here's a topic ..........
Parents need a collective large kick up the arse from around 1970's onwards!!!!!!!
People have this strange idea that teachers teach english should also be able to teach RESPECT & DISCIPLINE.
NO NO NO NO NO NO - kids learn respect at home. So very few people know how to bring up and discipline children these days. You don't need to
smack children, just need to understand psychology.
(My mum was a primary teacher and eventually a head. I got to watch first hand the standard of children's behaviour dropping as the years went
by)
you don't need to be over 25 to see that things are getting worse.
i'm 19, and it seems clear to me!
i don't think it's so much that bad discipline is a new thing, just a damn sight more prolific.
just think what the next generation will be like! 
tom
[Edited on 18/7/05 by indykid]
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
doesnt everyone over the age of approx 25 or so see things in society as generally getting worse?
Interesting view - hadnt considered some of those points before.
One comment that sticks in my mind about high school when i was in the 5th year (and we only got to leave at 3:45!!!) was how the teachers compared
years. I over heard one conversation about how the second year where the worst year they could remember, in fact they where worse than the 5th
year!
Also, you can't deny society is changing. Children grow up much more quickly due to the pressures put upon them by (i believe) advertising.
ps did notice myself getting taller, i stopped having my chin on my g/f shoulder when walking behind her and started having to bend down to kiss her!
not pressure put on there shoulders they are being forced to grow up too young,
wether it be by being allowed to or having to,but if you let your dog bite you and do it's business everywhere it will,
if you let your wife spend all your earnings she will...(unless your married to mrs bob).
and if you let your kids go off the rails they will too, if your kids respect you they should respect everyone if brought up correctly.... just a
ramble
IMHO, kids generally have a crappy life these days - when they're young they can't roam around like I used to (for instance, I often used to
wander off to the local beach by myself when I was 10 or 11, hoping that my friends would be there). Very often me and a couple of mates used to go
off into the wilds for the day - can't see that happening very often these days.
And when they get to be teenagers the pressure is huge, there doesn't seem to be much plain innocent fun to be had, and the long-term prospects
are grim.
I'm glad my two kids are well past that stage...
David
Kids lives arent all that bad these days. They have DVD's, hundreds of TV channels, play stations etc. Sounds great. When i was a kid we only had
3 channels. Ch.4 came in when i was about 11 or so - that was a good excuse to get out more! e had a quarry nearby - it was great to see the big dump
trucks at such close quarters. There was an old slag heap at the other side of the railway line that was also great, it had a woods in the middle for
exploring and loads of ponds for catching frogs and newts etc. By the way - it wasnt me that used to blow the frogs up and stick them to the hawthorn
bushes.
Does the law need tightening up these days or have people become more cleverer at being evasive???
I dont know the answers to moral issues but i have a good sense of right and wrong and pride myself in keeping a good but fair level of discipline. I
would sh1t myself if a copper came knocking on my door - even if i knew id done noewt wrong. It amazes me how many people who make a sport out of
finding ways around the law of the land.
I sooooo agree........ When i was 11 I used to go wandering with my mates over the back fields - we'd walk for miles, walk along side (farmers
side) the motorway, cross it (via the famers bridge), stuff today children wouldn't be allowed to do......
yeah, ok, occasionally we did "naughty" things. I won't list them in case it incriminates me. But it was the sort of stuff i'd
expect to get a good telling off and a clip round the ear for ('found' a turnip with a few thousand others in a field for my mum once - mum
was mad at me when i got home).
I still worry when i see a copper, still respect the law. Once a bloke stepped out on me when i had the green light and i knocked him down. I really
thought i'd killed him, still stopped, walked (very apprehensively) to the back of the car ....... you have to face up to what you've done
in life. Too many people don't and think they should get a free ride.
You're back to parental discipline again...
(and I don't mean smacking - I reckon I smacked my kids about 3 or 4 times during their entire childhood - I soon found out it did no good, and
found better ways of maintaining good behaviour. Didn't always work, but they've both grown up to be good adults, so I can't have been
too far wrong.)
David
If you know how to wage psychological warfare you can control a kid without smacking. The problem is not many people know how to do it, or, are prepared to learn.
Hmmn, I was expecting a treatise on which anoraks and footware are best...
As for kids being better/worse than we were? Difficult to say -- there is a huge social disconnect between kids and us oldsters, just as there was
when we were young, and our grandparents bashed our parents for listening to the Beatles.
I do tend to see today's kids as being more outwardly destructive -- we got into a lot of scrapes and scuffles amongst ourselves growing up, kids
now seem to be more into vandalism, tagging and property damage and when they do go at each other they're more likely to use weapons than we were
-- but this may simply be me looking at it as an old git.
Cheers, Ted
OK then, a couple of illustrations.
There is a thread on here about a girl stabbing another girl last week almost killing her.
A couple miles away, right next to where jollygreengiant lives, is a place alled irthlingborough.
On Friday night, a 14 year old boy and a 16 year old boy got into a fight over a girl. The 14 year old stabbed to death the 16 year old.
The only incident I remember during my whole time at school of any seriousness was when the school hard nut stabbed a kid in the hand with a
screwdriver. (I left in 1975).
I dont recall anyone having knives, weapons, drugs, glue or any such things. Perhaps things changed a lot in the 16 years between us.
I dont think there is ANY excuse for carrying a knife. I thing a mandatory 6 months in prison or a young offenders institutio would sort that out. How
impressive would it be to carry a knife to school if any of your 'mates' talking about it could get you banged up.
I thought Andrew and Dads thread was enlightening, in the way that Andrew seemed to see it as normal and the way things were.
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by Monkey Man
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
doesnt everyone over the age of approx 25 or so see things in society as generally getting worse?
I will be thirty in december and I disagree strongly.
Getting worse in what way?
I started thinking when I was 16 at school that the people in the years below didn't show the proper respect for us fifth years.
It was terrible. No respect at all.
Since growing up I realise that that was wrong. We were just as bad at the same age we just didn't care about anything but getting out of school at 3:15.
We think it's worse but it's not. As we grow older we hold different values and think different things are important.
As a kid I didn't care about anything. As an adult I hold a very different view.
People change but don't notice. Did you ever spot yourself getting taller? No?
Well the way to measure your personality growth is whether you agree with a sixteen year old.
The thing to do when you find you disagree strongly with a 16 yr old is not to shout or threaten violence but to remember your superior experience and remember that you are the adult and that it is your duty to set the example to the younger people.
The feeling that things are getting worse is just fear. Fear that has no rational justification.
As that American chap said,
"We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
Sorry for the lecture. I know I tend to go on but I would be annoyed with myself if I didn't say what I think.
When i was in the 5th year 16 years ago (yeah, i'm 31) i remember one incident where one lad brought a stanley knife into school.
Tension between our high school and the next high school had been brewing for a couple of weeks. I seem to remember him saying something like,
"if they start anything" blah blah blah.....
most of us just kept away - but it was starting back then. In the end nothing happened and i'm not sure anyone had the guts to do anything
really.
In my mind things are getting worse, when I was at school between 1979 and 1984 never heard of anyone carrying Weapons if two people had a problem with each other it was sorted out with fists (rightly or wrongly). I overheard a conversation between 2 young guys resently 1 saying he carries a small knife for protection when he goes out at night (very sad). My Dad brought me up tough there was no grounding just a boot up the arse or if it merited it a good slap in the face it worked for me. Respect everyone until they give you reason not to, young and old.
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
OK then, a couple of illustrations.
had a shock a couple of years ago, went out with some mates and got searched before we went into a club to make sure we didn't have knifes.
What scared me more was i had my keyring leatherman on me at the time, they didn't notice it and i got into the club. Its got a 2" blade on
it........
Took it off my keyring after that night.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4697461.stm
As I work in Court and deal with this sh*t every day, I can say that in the last 6 years since I have worked there, things, especially youths (anyone
under 18) are definately more common place now and with much more serious crimes.
Pat...
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4697461.stm
Most mornings I talk with a senior doctor who teaches at a London university. Every year he has to deal with school-leavers who are finding it
impossible to cope with the level of work required of a medical student. They start the year with a collection of A+ results and think that they know
what hard work is, based on their A-level studies - then they REALLY find out what it means. It would have been better if the exams were as hard as
they used to be, so that only the most competent students went forward.
And before you complain that this is a harsh view, how would you like to be operated on by someone who's only got through the exams because the
authorities had lowered the pass rate?
David
(who now ducks below the parapet).
I will second that, I always remember teachers mentioning that "A-levels are the hardest thing you will do"...............well that's
total ball-cocks that is!!!
My degree was MUCH harder, the workload in the final year meaning working to 2:00 am through the night most nights.
Working on farms during holidays from when I was 13 gave me a fairly hardworking attitude, certainly most summers working 7am through to midnight was
not at all uncommon, and I still have the payslips from the last estate farm that I worked at (Cottesbrooke Estate in Northants) where I had 3 weeks
running with over 100hrs per week
Loved almost every minute of it though, certainly beats what I am doing now
well i completely stuffed up my a-levels purely because i didn't do any work! i've since done and hnc and an hnd, the hnc by day release and
the hnd i've just finished which was 2 evenings and a saturday morning in london after work (apart from saturday mornings which i had to commute
in for, when i dbothered) this involved far more self study, motivationa dn organisation which aren't my strongest points, but i did it.
my concerns about growing up is the social withdrawl ie when i was a kid i wasn't alowed my own tv in my room until i bought my own (28"
widescreen) which wasn't until i had a car to go and get it with! i had to buy my own computer and only had a hand-me-down games console quite
late on in my teens.
kids have all these technologically advanced gadgets, teh internet dvd etc etc which is great, but if it stops them getting out, getting exercise,
life experience, fires and tree houses in the woods and contributes to the over weight, sociallly dettached society where respect means carrying a
knife, what is wrong with a scrap and a bloody nose, thats as bad as it ever got at my school and that was within the last 10 years.
Ned.
quote:
Originally posted by ned
my concerns about growing up is the social withdrawl ie when i was a kid i wasn't alowed my own tv in my room until i bought my own (28" widescreen
kids have all these technologically advanced gadgets, teh internet dvd etc etc which is great, but if it stops them getting out, getting exercise, life experience, fires and tree houses in the woods and contributes to the over weight, socially detached society where respect means carrying a knife, what is wrong with a scrap and a bloody nose, thats as bad as it ever got at my school and that was within the last 10 years.
Ned.
Interesting thread.
I am an ex-teacher who left teaching, not through indiscipline, but through the sh1t handed down from on high.
I never had a problem with the youff of today. Yes you had a few nutters and yes they never seemed to be delt with properly in the system, but on the
whole the majority were just as scarred and unsure of their future as you and I. They were also capable of opening an old gits eyes (mine) to a
totally different world. They were funny, sad and sometimes pathetic but on the whole a good laugh. They loved to take the p@ss out of my cars and I
let them because I can take it and find it funny (unlike others) which ultimately led to a degree of respect and common ground. Have met many after
they left school and they took delight in showing me their first cars. (A couple had better ones than me!!!!)
Whats wrong with this bl@@dy country is the minority rule the roost and until the minority that shagg everything up for everyone else are totally
ignored or shipped to an island in the mid atlantic, nothing will change. (Chav's and other sh1t stirrers)
The complete overload of information we have to endure everyday is also a contributing factor. The number of teenage suicides are on the increase,
particularly among boys who find they cannot live upto the celebrity lifestyle expected in every magazine and in every advert, but at school they
don't talk about it because its not cool.
I once talked a scissor weilding boy down simply by asking him if he had tried a particular computer game and offered to lend him a copy. It was the
first time in his 14 years anyone took an interest in what he did Had a good working relationship with him after that, but teachers are not
around once the pupil has left the premises.
These factors are not usually talked about in public.
Not sure where I'm going with this but thought I would contribute.
Cheers
Mark