TOP GEAR SURVEY 2005 LINK
3 Skoda's in top ten -
BMW highest entry 25 and that's the Mini....
Nearly every Jp car (bar Honda) performs poorly (as expected) on Squeaks/Rattles...
Lowest rated car's are French (that's why they're buring them!!! 
)...
Mercedes finally get their cummupance....
(Guy at Rockingham - almost trashes his SLK500 AMG due to seizing rear brakes - can do better? - you bet!!!)
That's my take anyway! Great survey!!!
[Edited on 14-11-05 by Hellfire]
Im on my 2nd Skoda Octavia estate, brilliant cars, most reliable cars ive owned bar none.
Dave
My VW Sharan came in at 146th place. oops!!
Oh well i never wanted to sell it anyway.
Apart from the heater not working and costing £300 to fix a few weeks ago i must admit my car has been superb! (touch lots of wood!!!)
Honda S2000 no. 1 second year running.
Nuff said!
In my humble opinion one of the rare pieces of automotive mastery that makes other car manufacturers actually think about what they sell to us.
It is very rare that I get very excited about production cars. No doubt a trait shared with many on here, when you know exactly how they go together,
what makes them good etc etc etc, the "What Car" type reviews seem rather pointless.
Every once in a while though a truly brilliant piece of work comes along.
Last cars to have this effect on me were the lotus elise and exige. Both cars produced on stupidly low development budgets and with access only to
rudimentary facilities compared to the "big manufacturers" and yet can appeal to the masses, have "adequate" reliability and are
just packed full of bits of design genius. Having your back to the wall makes good designers shine!!!!!
The Honda S2000 is another piece of such genius. My only quandry is how it is made for the price??? I can only guess Honda's profits from it are
slim or negative.
I could go into the vast array of parts that Honda had to design and tool up for speciafically for this car, which adds hugely to the costs, but I
won't!!
I think it is best summed up by the example that my mum drives. She loves driving, but wants a reliable car. She is a retired 60-something and wants a
car that she can do track days in some weekends, go to the coast in at other weekends, and even take the dog out in now and again. Honda met all these
requirements easily. She can get in and out with no problem, it's comfortable, EVERY and I mean EVERY control apart from the gearstick, is
reachable without removing your hands from the steering wheel!!!!!!!!! She straps the dog into a harness in the passenger seat, which is always
amusing, but shows it can be done! Another day she will then take great pride in scaring her friends witless with high speed country jaunts!!! She
just LOVES the car (as do I, especially when she lets me nick it for a bit!) and after all this, it NEVER breaks down and just goes to the Honda
dealer for nice normal services.
She paid £23,000 (new price) for the privelige to do all that.............................................I would consider that a bargain and a VERY
worthy survey winner indeed.
[Edited on 14/11/05 by NS Dev]
[Edited on 14/11/05 by NS Dev]
I wonder if these surveys actually take into account the numbers sold. For example, 307's came 3rd from bottom, and you see loads of them. You
might be lucky to see an s2000 once a fortnight.
Another aspect is the whinge factor. People are more likely to bitch about something they had a negative experience about than a positive one.
Yet another aspect is the reasons people didnt like the car. Is it reliablity, dealer service, spares prices, fuel consumption - what exactly?
I have done 26000 miles in 10 months in the car 4th from bottom - renault laguna. My wife has done 22k miles in 3 years in the car 8th from bottom -
megane. We havent had a problem with either. Both of these cars sell by the millions and the megane is i think the no 4 selling car in the UK. Do we
see them at the roadside, or being towed? Nope. Are there loads of em about? yep.
Still not seen an s2000 in some time tho.
atb
steve
when i filled in that survey i had a primera, and rated it well - its ended up around 90th though!
I have now a Skoda Octavia (new shape) to replace my Mazda6. Class apart... the Skoda wee wee's all over the Mazda in virtually everything (bar
looks - which you can't see from inside). My Mazda6 was regularly in the garage for loads of stuff (mainly recalls). The Skoda doesn't even
see the garage until 30K consecutive miles! Amazing... one of the best cars I have had too! I had the Octavia VRS before the Mazda6 the VRS is an
awesome car! From what I understand the new UK VRS is better than the old one! Sadly it wasn't released when I got the Ovtavia Elegance.
[Edited on 15-11-05 by Hellfire]
My tin top (Fiat stilo - well ok it is the 2.4 Abarth ) came very near the bottom with one of the bad points being rattles...
I can honestly say that i have yet to find another car with less rattles! It's very well built and there is no hint of a rattle anywhere... (Oh
yes and did I mention bloody fast too!)
Just shows that you need to take these surveys with a pinch of salt, sad really though as it willl put some people off decent cars...
at the end of the day it is the opinion of the owners of these cars though!
If somebody is happy with their car they will say so, if not, they wont.
I can speak from experience from a few years ago on the previous model Renault Megane, and it was truly awful to drive. It had only done 5000 miles
but the ABS came in far too early in the dry making any sort of fast driving very dangerous (extended your braking distance at random just when you
didn't expect it) the build quality was best described as cheap and nasty.
The pug 307 that I drove recently was also uninspiring crap in my opinion, also space inefficient and just generally extremely dull, can't
comment on reliability, didn't drive it far (thank god!!!)
Forget the number of cars sold, the survey works on percentages, and all the cars sold enough to make that a good reliable measure of opinion.
Good cars like the Skodas and Honda S2000 did well because they are good cars, full stop. The bad cars did badly for a reason too, and not just
general whinges.
I am sure there were a few people that liked Rover 800's when they were new cars.....................................................
Whats to stop merc drivers writing in and rubishing BMWs. I bet somone in an owners clup could get together enough support to influence the results.
I'm off to buy a new shape Espace tomorrow, and yet the previous shape came very near the bottom. HOWEVER, when reviewed on their web site they
still recon it's the Daddy of MPV's and the one to beat. So who's right?
The other thing that influenced my decision is that there are are very few auto diesel's made in big MPV form....
My mate uses one for his window cleaning round, he's had it for about 8 years and the only thing wrong with it is the locking system. I think his
buckets and leathers are well insured though. 
I must admit, I have to agree with DaveFJ when he says they need to be taken with a pinch of salt. If a few more categories had been introduced, such
as Looks or Sound, I reckon the list would have been very different.
Although the S2000 may have still won, I bet the rest of the list wouldn't be the same. Lets face it, some of those cars in the top ten may be
reliable and have very few rattles but most are as dull as dishwater!! 
strange that, cos mazda regularly gets in the top ten. when I had my new 323f in 1997 it was 9 in the reliability rankings
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
I have now a Skoda Octavia (new shape) to replace my Mazda6. Class apart... the Skoda wee wee's all over the Mazda in virtually everything (bar looks - which you can't see from inside). My Mazda6 was regularly in the garage for loads of stuff (mainly recalls). The Skoda doesn't even see the garage until 30K consecutive miles! Amazing... one of the best cars I have had too! I had the Octavia VRS before the Mazda6 the VRS is an awesome car! From what I understand the new UK VRS is better than the old one! Sadly it wasn't released when I got the Ovtavia Elegance.
[Edited on 15-11-05 by Hellfire]
We also had a 'last shape' megane from new at R reg. It was a base 1.4 liberte. Has ABS. did 45k miles over 5 years. Again, no problems at
all. Nice roomy car, but the 75hp engine is underpowered.
So, thats two meganes ive had without any issues at all. must be tempting fate
I did have a Rover 800 - I loved the car but it probably had more problems than any car ive ever owned. I would put most of them down to the crappy
dealer and one or two things of my own making (holing the sump on a road hump!).
How do you mean 'percentages'.
If 2000 S2000 get sold in a year, and 50,000 meganes get sold in a year, its fairly easy to see what might get most respondants.
TOP TEN
1: Honda S2000
2: Lexus IS200/300
3: Lexus RX300
4: Skoda Superb
5: Skoda Octavia
6: Honda Jazz
7: Honda Accord
8: Subaru Legacy
9: Skoda Fabia
10: Subaru Forester
in my mind, these dont sell as high numbers as the bottom ten
150: Citroën Xsara
151: Peugeot 206
152: Renault Mégane (Nov '02 on)
153: Rover 25
154: Fiat Stilo
155: Mercedes M-Class
156: Renault Laguna
157: Renault Espace
158: Peugeot 307
159: Peugeot 807
and the top selling UK cars for last month....
1 Ford Focus (5,907) Ford Focus
2 Vauxhall Astra (3,550) Vauxhall Astra
3 Renault Mégane (2,801) Renault Megane
4 Vauxhall Corsa (2,625) Vauxhall Corsa
5 Volkswagen Golf (2,553) Volkswagen Golf
6 Peugeot 206 (2,498) Peugeot 206
7 Ford Fiesta (1,952) Ford Fiesta
8 Renault Clio (1,880) Renault Clio
9 MINI (1,728) BMW 3-series
10 Volkswagen Polo (1,714)
Not a SINGLE ONE of the best selling cars from last month are in the best list, but TWO of the highest sellers are in the worst list.
Of the most reliable I would guess the following dont even sell more than a couple thousand a year - if that.....
1: Honda S2000
2: Lexus IS200/300
3: Lexus RX300
8: Subaru Legacy
10: Subaru Forester
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
at the end of the day it is the opinion of the owners of these cars though!
If somebody is happy with their car they will say so, if not, they wont.
I can speak from experience from a few years ago on the previous model Renault Megane, and it was truly awful to drive. It had only done 5000 miles but the ABS came in far too early in the dry making any sort of fast driving very dangerous (extended your braking distance at random just when you didn't expect it) the build quality was best described as cheap and nasty.
The pug 307 that I drove recently was also uninspiring crap in my opinion, also space inefficient and just generally extremely dull, can't comment on reliability, didn't drive it far (thank god!!!)
Forget the number of cars sold, the survey works on percentages, and all the cars sold enough to make that a good reliable measure of opinion.
Good cars like the Skodas and Honda S2000 did well because they are good cars, full stop. The bad cars did badly for a reason too, and not just general whinges.
I am sure there were a few people that liked Rover 800's when they were new cars.....................................................
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
You might be lucky to see an s2000 once a fortnight.
Still not seen an s2000 in some time tho.
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
We also had a 'last shape' megane from new at R reg. It was a base 1.4 liberte. Has ABS. did 45k miles over 5 years. Again, no problems at all. Nice roomy car, but the 75hp engine is underpowered.
So, thats two meganes ive had without any issues at all. must be tempting fate
I did have a Rover 800 - I loved the car but it probably had more problems than any car ive ever owned. I would put most of them down to the crappy dealer and one or two things of my own making (holing the sump on a road hump!).
How do you mean 'percentages'.
If 2000 S2000 get sold in a year, and 50,000 meganes get sold in a year, its fairly easy to see what might get most respondants.
TOP TEN
1: Honda S2000
2: Lexus IS200/300
3: Lexus RX300
4: Skoda Superb
5: Skoda Octavia
6: Honda Jazz
7: Honda Accord
8: Subaru Legacy
9: Skoda Fabia
10: Subaru Forester
in my mind, these dont sell as high numbers as the bottom ten
150: Citroën Xsara
151: Peugeot 206
152: Renault Mégane (Nov '02 on)
153: Rover 25
154: Fiat Stilo
155: Mercedes M-Class
156: Renault Laguna
157: Renault Espace
158: Peugeot 307
159: Peugeot 807
and the top selling UK cars for last month....
1 Ford Focus (5,907) Ford Focus
2 Vauxhall Astra (3,550) Vauxhall Astra
3 Renault Mégane (2,801) Renault Megane
4 Vauxhall Corsa (2,625) Vauxhall Corsa
5 Volkswagen Golf (2,553) Volkswagen Golf
6 Peugeot 206 (2,498) Peugeot 206
7 Ford Fiesta (1,952) Ford Fiesta
8 Renault Clio (1,880) Renault Clio
9 MINI (1,728) BMW 3-series
10 Volkswagen Polo (1,714)
Not a SINGLE ONE of the best selling cars from last month are in the best list, but TWO of the highest sellers are in the worst list.
Of the most reliable I would guess the following dont even sell more than a couple thousand a year - if that.....
1: Honda S2000
2: Lexus IS200/300
3: Lexus RX300
8: Subaru Legacy
10: Subaru Forester
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
at the end of the day it is the opinion of the owners of these cars though!
If somebody is happy with their car they will say so, if not, they wont.
I can speak from experience from a few years ago on the previous model Renault Megane, and it was truly awful to drive. It had only done 5000 miles but the ABS came in far too early in the dry making any sort of fast driving very dangerous (extended your braking distance at random just when you didn't expect it) the build quality was best described as cheap and nasty.
The pug 307 that I drove recently was also uninspiring crap in my opinion, also space inefficient and just generally extremely dull, can't comment on reliability, didn't drive it far (thank god!!!)
Forget the number of cars sold, the survey works on percentages, and all the cars sold enough to make that a good reliable measure of opinion.
Good cars like the Skodas and Honda S2000 did well because they are good cars, full stop. The bad cars did badly for a reason too, and not just general whinges.
I am sure there were a few people that liked Rover 800's when they were new cars.....................................................
[Edited on 15/11/05 by steve_gus]
Where I will admit that the statistics become slightly less relevant is in the middle ground in the survey.
Those people who are fairly indifferent about their car are less likely to respond than those who are either really pleased or really upset over their
cars.
The top and bottom of the list should be pretty "accurate" but the middle ground is just that, a big group of cars that are pretty evenly
matched.
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Sorry to go on but by percentages I mean..................PERCENTAGES!
As long as there is a representative sample of cars sold then it doesn't matter whether 100 or 10,000 people responded regarding a particular car. Their views should be consistent if the cars are consistent!!!!! If one in five say the car is crap then as long as 5 people wrote in it makes no odds after that. 50,000 people can write in about a car but if 1 in 5 say it's rubbish the result will be the same!
Unfortunately my job involves lots of sampling and the like so I am uncomfortably familiar with one of my most HATED subjects, statistics!
quote:
How do you mean 'percentages'.
If 2000 S2000 get sold in a year, and 50,000 meganes get sold in a year, its fairly easy to see what might get most respondants.
TOP TEN
1: Honda S2000
2: Lexus IS200/300
3: Lexus RX300
4: Skoda Superb
5: Skoda Octavia
6: Honda Jazz
7: Honda Accord
8: Subaru Legacy
9: Skoda Fabia
10: Subaru Forester
in my mind, these dont sell as high numbers as the bottom ten
150: Citroën Xsara
151: Peugeot 206
152: Renault Mégane (Nov '02 on)
153: Rover 25
154: Fiat Stilo
155: Mercedes M-Class
156: Renault Laguna
157: Renault Espace
158: Peugeot 307
159: Peugeot 807
quote:
Sorry, but you are talking complete crap here!!!!!!!!!!
The sales volume matters not one jot as long as a representative sample of cars has been sold (I would say around 100)
steve_gus - 16/11/05 at 08:22 PMreally?
why is it then that a subaru legacy and a subaru forester (which are as rare as rockinghorse shyte) are both in the top ten, when the much higher sold Impretza is at a lower number?
How about posting useful information rather than insults. Can you explain why the top cars are mostly low volume cars, and the worst are high volume cars..... pure coincidece - i think not
Percentages are only going to work on a level playing field - like stopping people on the street. If its a voluntary thing, mentioned on the end of top gear, some people will be inclined to vote more than others.
Take my car for example, and my wifes. Laguna and megane. Both are the pits on the site, but in 4 years total ownership and 50,000 miles not a single problem. I couldnt be assed to vote. Now, imagine if my turbo had blown and id just payed 1400 quid to have it fixed - it be on like a shot bitching about it.
You have 10000 potential megane drivers against 38 subaru forrester drivers watching top gear when asked to vote.
read this for a discussion (gives a link to the FULL listing too)
http://cars.mylounge.com/t149548-top-gear-survey-2005-results---peugeot-do-badly.html
one extract....
I'm always amazed by how badly Peugeot as a whole do in these surveys. I've
had 4 Peugeots, a 405, 306 and our current 2, a 206cc and a 406. I just
looked at the rating for the 406 and can't believe it was the same car as
the survey results.
Bearing in mind mine has over 170,000 miles on the clock, I can't
believe how it has just 2 stars for handling, comfort, rattles and
steering/suspension. For each of these, I'd personally give the 406 4 stars
for each of these. As far as reliability and customer care, and costs,
that'll be different for each owner, but mine has been fine for reliability,
keeping in mind its mileage.
I think the customer care annoys people most and people are much more
likely to put the effort into these surveys if they want to complain about
their car, rather than praise it,
[Edited on 16/11/05 by steve_gus]
flak monkey - 16/11/05 at 09:11 PMAt the end of the day if it is done on percentages then it should all work out fairly, as long a reasonable sized sample from each catergory (in this case the make/model of the car). There is a whole field of study on sampling so i shant go into thats as its very boring.
If only 50 people voted for the S2000, but all of them said it was crap, it would be near the bottom, 25 said it was crap then it would be somewhere in the middle, and so on.
The results show the percentage of people that are happy, or not, with their cars. Those cars that had the most percentage of people reply with positive feedback will be close to the top, those with the least positive comments will be near the bottom.
I can see why it would be easy to think the numbers are skewed, as you may think that if less cars are sold there will be less problems. There will, and this would affect the results IF too smaller sample was available, as the results could be hevily positively or negatively skewed easily. There will still, proportionally, be the same number of faults regardless of whether 10 or 1million cars are sold. There may be more occurrances of the fault in the more popular car, but the percentage will work out the same assuming the cars have the same reliability. The larger the sample the more accurate the representation of the overall view of that car. So the best selling cars in the list will have the most balanced veiw, the ones that have sold may be less balanced, but are not neccessarily wrong or heavily skewed.
Hope that makes sense...
David
NS Dev - 16/11/05 at 10:58 PMNicely put Flak!
Sorry Steve, I wasn't trying to be insulting, sorry about that!
I was trying to explain what has now been explained above (very nicely!)
As long as the samples were of a reasonable size then skewing (doncha just love statistics.......god I HATE them!!) should be minimised and the survey will be reliable.
Sample sizes can be surprisingly small and still give good results.
off at tangent now but there are whole shelves dedicated to many many books on how to improve the accuracy of predictions based on sample sizes that are traditionally too small (god why did I go on that Six-Sigma course!!:mad
Anyhow, all this means that as long as Top Gear have not fiddled the data, the survey should be a fair reflection.
steve_gus - 16/11/05 at 11:41 PMI can see exactly what you are all saying, but the problem is with online type voting is it isnt representative.
Its human nature to bitch rather than praise.
Plus, does the survey take milage into account? an S2000 probably comes out on nice sunny days and does 4k a year. My Laguna does 32k in all weathers. 8x more likely to go wrong if they were on equal terms mechanically.
I can see that 50 people with one unhappy is 2% and that 10000 votes with 200 unhappy is 2%.
BUT...... with such a small sample, if there is a 0.5% chance of gearbox failure, you dont have enough cars (or milage?) to see a fault. a 0.5% chance of gearbox failure with 10000 cars is fifty people complaining against none for the 50 sample.
People also bitch about the most incredibly daft things and see them as a hug issue when they are not. Some of the stuff you see in online surveys is mad.
I searched for info each time I bought a digital camera. You will see posts saying its great, and others saying its the worst POS they have ever encountered.
I looked for info on tyres last week. One person didnt like a particular brand as he had SIX (thats right six) blow out on him, and he suspected it might be weak sidewalls. I suspected he was an idiot for either having the wrong tyres or couldnt drive, or needs to make a mistake six times before he learnt
I find it hard to believe that anyone would buy anything Frnech is they were as bad as the survey says. For example, the renault megane sells 3rd most cars here at 3k a month, (and the focus sells more than twice that). The survey tells us these are not good cars. In fact virtually all the top ten sellers are not good cars.
So, is the survey skewed or are the british public daft and our roads littered with abandoned Peugeots?
atb
steve
[Edited on 17/11/05 by steve_gus]
steve_gus - 16/11/05 at 11:48 PMIn the words of the top gear site
This year's overall winner is the same as last year's: Honda's S2000 roadster.
___You don't see many of these on the road______ but when you do, the driver's always wearing a smug grin, thanks to this sports car's unbeatable combination of screaming performance, rock-solid reliability and built-in individuality.
and
Lying second from bottom is the Peugeot 307, a car that was awarded European Car of the Year in 2002. Go figure...
and
South Korean car maker Hyundai is on the up. You rated its products above Audi's, and only slightly behind BMW's.
so, we should all be buying Hyundai then.
atb
steve
PS
Election polls are not considered accurate unless there is a sample of 1000 or more. Are there a thousand forresters in the UK from total sales I wonder?
NS Dev - 17/11/05 at 12:41 AMthere is a lot there that I either can't accurately answer or can't be bothered to!
What I will say is whilst the "family" S2000 doesn't do 32,000 miles a year, it does do over 15,000 a year, and in the two years and 33,000 miles so far covered, there has yet to be a fault, or any "outside of normal sevicing" work.......of any sort however minor (and my mum is bloody fussy, I wouldn't want to work on her car very often!!). I know there shouldn't be after only 30 odd thousand miles, but that's more than can be said for my dad's BM 330Ci!!, or the Fiat Coupe Turbo before it, or the Alfa 156 v6 before that, or the nissan 200sx before that..........................................
I guess I am personally biased, as are you Steve, so we'll have to pass the debate over to others
flak monkey - 17/11/05 at 07:52 AMquote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
I can see that 50 people with one unhappy is 2% and that 10000 votes with 200 unhappy is 2%.
BUT...... with such a small sample, if there is a 0.5% chance of gearbox failure, you dont have enough cars (or milage?) to see a fault. a 0.5% chance of gearbox failure with 10000 cars is fifty people complaining against none for the 50 sample.
[Edited on 17/11/05 by steve_gus]
You are quite right, that is why I mentioned sample sizes. You do have to have a representative number of cars from each group to make the results fair.
Also, as with any satisfaction survey, you have to take the results with a pinch of salt anyway. The majority of people will only take part if they have had really bad or really good experiences with their car. This in effect, statistically, renders probably the top 15 and bottom 15 of the survey misrepresentative of the general view. Unfortunately this is one of the problems that Stats cannot overcome.
Theoretically the results should not be biased or skewed, however due to the way we think and respond to questions, often results can be misleading.
I dont take much notice of the results of the survey to be honest. You know what cars to avoid (French and Italian) and which ones to go for (British, Japanese and German) if you want a reasonably reliable car. Just drive down the motorway on a hot summers day and count the numbers of cars broken down. I bet you 80% of them will be French, which seems to sit well with the survey overall!
David
steve_gus - 17/11/05 at 08:02 AMThere is a plane, if you look at accident statistics, that is extremely dangerous and has a worse record than any russian airliner. Its the revered concorde. By airliner standards, a relatively llow flying hours example crashed and burned. This was one out of 12 planes made, and was therefore a 12% or so chance of catastrophic accident compared to most other planes less than one percent.
We all know that this was a one off after 27 years of flying.
But using percentages (especially when you look at the lowish miles the planes actually did) makes Concorde seem like a total death trap.
Better fly on a Tupolev then
atb
steve
steve_gus - 17/11/05 at 08:04 AMI think i bassically agree with you Flack......
Along with NS's positive experiences, I can say that my 26k so far on my Laguna have also been positive - so far. Buy if you search then net for it you find a lot of failures. Perhaps Im bucking the trend or somethng has changed...
atb
steve
flak monkey - 17/11/05 at 08:25 AMquote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
There is a plane, if you look at accident statistics, that is extremely dangerous and has a worse record than any russian airliner. Its the revered concorde. By airliner standards, a relatively llow flying hours example crashed and burned. This was one out of 12 planes made, and was therefore a 12% or so chance of catastrophic accident compared to most other planes less than one percent.
Quite right. This does infact mean that the concorde was not a safe plane to fly on if you base it purely on the stats. It doesnt matter how long it had been around, what matters is the number of flights compared to the number of failures. If you work out how many flights the concorde has made, then the number of accidents you can find out how reliable it was. It wont come out well compared to something like a 737...
Had the concorde carried on flying, assuming it did not have another accident, its reliability would have gone back up again. This is a case where the results are heavily skewed since not enough data was available to get a reliable result.
David
PS 1 in 12 is 8.3% [(1/12)*100]. But I will let you off as its early in the morning
[Edited on 17/11/05 by flak monkey]
steve_gus - 17/11/05 at 12:23 PMyeah - that illustation came to me just as I was leaving for work and didnt take a lot of care.
I found this, which was interesting for carstats buffs
http://lib.smmt.co.uk/articles/homepagearticle/HomePageArticles/2005%20-%20SMMT%20Motor%20Industry%20Facts.pdf
lists numbers and makes sold in 2004 in the UK from the prime source, the motor mfr association.
atb
steve
[Edited on 17/11/05 by steve_gus]