craig1410
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 01:24 PM |
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Building regs - Shower lighting?
Hi,
Just starting a renovation of the family bathroom and would appreciate some advice on the building regulations relating to bathroom lighting. Any
general tips are also welcome.
The bathroom consists of a basin, toilet and bath and the previous owners (I suspect) have added a shower hose above the bath even though the tiles
don't extend to the ceiling. There is also no shower screen so you can't use it as a shower really, only for hair washing when in the
bath. We want to install a new bathroom suite (shower-bath, toilet, basin, shower screen and thermostatic shower. The shower is fed by pressurised
mains for both cold and hot water as we have an unvented hot water system with 3 bar pressure and a 210 litre tank. The shower has both a fixed head
and a handheld hose.
There is currently a single ceiling light above the edge of the bath about 2/3rds of the way towards the "head" end of the bath. The
switch for this light is outside the bathroom door in the hall. Firstly, does this light meet building regs at the moment? Secondly, if I install the
new shower, it will be about 500mm from this ceiling light. Can I assume this will not be acceptable? Common sense tells me it shouldn't be
allowed as I could touch the light while showering which would seem both a bad idea and a bad design! The light is mains powered and could be
described as moderately splash proof but certainly not sealed. It is quite flush to the ceiling and has a glass bowl facing downwards held in place
with three thumb screws. I can post a pic if it would help.
So, assuming the light isn't allowed to remain where it is, what are my best options? The room isn't that big so I think if I was to
relocate the light such that it is safe and compliant then it would be almost in the corner of the room. I was thinking of low voltage down-lighters
instead. Is that a straightforward way to go? Anything I need to look out for? I expect I need to use lights with some sort of wet/damp room
rating?
By the way, I'm located in Scotland in case there are any regional variations in building regs.
Thanks,
Craig.
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slingshot2000
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 01:38 PM |
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Hi Craig,
the lights should really be waterproof to at least IP44. This is a standard mark and you should be able to find light fitting marked as such. However
that are not all decorative.
Installing downlighters in the ceiling is an option, but that also has draw-backs.
Low voltage (12volt) downlighters are a masive fire hazard, you must be certain that the rear of the fittings are not within about 300mm(check
instructions) of anything flamable including roof timbers and loft insulation.
240volt downlighters are much less of a fire risk, but would have to again be marked IP44. Shower spec downlighters are available, realtively cheaply
now.
Also, all downlighters get hot and should therefore be wired, to the correct junction box, with heat-resisting flex (ie;3093y).
To comply with Building Regs any downlighters must now be fire and acoustic rated, cutting a hole in a ceiling destroys its ability to with stand fire
for 30minutes and aslo allows the passage of sound.
Hope this helps, if you require more advise please contact me.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 02:21 PM |
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there are 'safe zones' in bathrooms and you can find the areas ommitted from the IP rated specs, but i would also go for an IP rated
fitting. the fittings usualy say which zones they can be put in. the NIC EIC who are the inspectors of many electrical contractors say it must be
suitable for the environment its put in. eg you dont want a pendant type light hanging above a shower. this is not just risk of electric shock, but
suitability. eg if water splashes up on a boiling hot bulb it could easily shatter causing cuts etc. on the other hand you can get completely
submersival fittings which are completely waterproof and suitable for areas like the bottom of a swimming pool!
as an electrician,most properties we work in nowadays have the IP rated recessed down lights, but unlike what slingshot said we usually go with low
voltage. they give a much better light than the 240 volt gu10 fittings but can suffer overheating if not fit in the appropriate way and environment
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craig1410
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 03:07 PM |
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Thanks for the comments guys, I appreciate you taking time to respond.
Thinking of the down-lighters, would I be correct in assuming that the fire risk comes only from proximity to loft insulation, debris and timber? Is
the plasterboard itself safe enough? The space above the bathroom is the attic and although there is insulation installed, I could easily move it
aside around the lights. It's usually only me who goes into the loft so it would be safe from anything getting put in this are. In fact I would
probably build a barrier around the "hot zone' such as a wooden frame with metal chicken wire over it.
Regarding the different "Zones" within a bathroom, I've been looking at the website http://www.ip44-lights.co.uk and they describe
the different zones (0,1,2 and 3). One thing I'm a bit uncertain about is how zone 0 is defined when the shower is not enclosed. Apparently Zone
0 is 'inside the shower' but since I only have a shower screen and can walk anywhere within the bath would that mean that Zone 0 is
anywhere above my bath? It says on the website that Zone 0 must be low voltage and IP67 rated.
Why are the zones limited to 2.25m above the bath? Does that mean I could have a Zone 3 light fitting right above my head in the shower? Or does the
zone extend to the ceiling if it is higher than 2.25m. My ceiling is around 2.4m.
See diagram of zones on this site:
http://www.allupandon.co.uk/bathroom-lighting-zones-diagram.html
Cheers,
Craig.
[Edited on 4/1/2011 by craig1410]
[Edited on 4/1/2011 by craig1410]
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craig1410
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 03:29 PM |
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My wife is now coming round to the idea of having no overhead lights and just having an illuminated mirror instead. I know this has to be IP44 also as
it will be above the basin but is there anything else I should watch out for with illuminated mirrors?
Thanks again to all.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 03:32 PM |
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If you're going to get it illuminated, I'd suggest also getting it heated to stop misting....
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daniel mason
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 03:38 PM |
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take a look at the zones on the first link to the lighting shop under 'what are zones' zone 1 is basically within the bath an up to 2.25
metres from the floor. anything above the bath and abofe 2.25 meters is zone 2. as is a 600 mm away from the edge of the bath and up to 2.25m high.
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richardh
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 04:22 PM |
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whilst on electrics, anyone know what the height of a socket can be allowed in a bedroom.
ie its currently low level but cant get to it due to furniture etc. can it be extended or raised to be above the height of dressing tables etc?
ta
Time for a change!
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daniel mason
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 05:19 PM |
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no regs on heights in existing buildings rich! but there are safe zones to run wires behind the plaster. safe areas are directly above or below the
socket vertically, and for some reason you can run them within 6" of the floor or ceiling horizontally or 6" from corner of a room
vertically
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 05:52 PM |
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last bathroom i did, i put a combined fan and low voltage light over the bath, and a full voltage downlight centrally in the room.
LV isnt a massive fire risk, you just have to use your head. I dont believe you do have to have fire proof ones because the bathroom ceiling doesnt
have to be a fire barrier in a two storey house.
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richardh
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 06:12 PM |
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cheers Daniel! horizontally can you go round a corner? presuming a 30amp jct box and additional 2.5mm 3 core wire and chiseled channel with a wire
protector conduit over top then plastered?
Time for a change!
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 06:18 PM |
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the zone doesnt extend round a corner, to do this you would need a visible point on both walls, ie a socket on each, and if they were at a different
height, move the channel up or down within 6" of the corner. Easiest way to move the socket for you:
if the existing socket has only one cable, then remove the socket front, use a 32A connector block to join the new one on, and cover it with a
blanking plate. This would then maintain your safe zone on that wall.
If existing socket has 2 cables, and it is defiantely a ring, then run the new one as a spur off this and leave the old socket in place.
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richardh
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 06:37 PM |
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thanks JoelP
Time for a change!
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daniel mason
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 07:21 PM |
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or split the ring inside the low level box and run 2 wires to the high level socket. this way you can spur off either in the future. to split the
ring you need to connect one of the original wires in to the low level socket with one of the new wires going to the high level socket. then inside
the back box join the remaing old wire to the remaining new one in connectors.
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slingshot2000
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 08:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by richardh
whilst on electrics, anyone know what the height of a socket can be allowed in a bedroom.
ie its currently low level but cant get to it due to furniture etc. can it be extended or raised to be above the height of dressing tables etc?
ta
Building Regs do now dictate height for sockets and switches, They should be between 450(min) and 1200mm(max) from the floor. This is so they can be
reached by someone in a wheel-chair
!
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 08:29 PM |
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part m only applies to new builds!
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slingshot2000
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 08:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
LV isnt a massive fire risk, you just have to use your head. I dont believe you do have to have fire proof ones because the bathroom ceiling doesnt
have to be a fire barrier in a two storey house.
LV IS a MASSIVE fire risk, the way the dichroic lamps work involves disipating heat backwards through the reflector. Try holding your hand in front of
one for a few minutes, no problem.
NOW try the same thing with a 240volt GU10 ay the same distance, they disipate heat forwards and are therefore almost impossible to hold your hand
infront of for very long!
Why wouldnt you want a fire barrier to all that nice timber holding your roof up?
An easy way to solve this argument is to ask the Building Inspector when he makes his first visit to the job. As this is work in a room containing
water and electricity, this is Notifiable Work (ie; you MUST inform the Council before you start work, unless you are a member of an approved scheme).
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slingshot2000
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 08:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
part m only applies to new builds!
And to rewires if the Building Inspector has reason to be on site.
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slingshot2000
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 08:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
If existing socket has 2 cables, and it is defiantely a ring.
Just because it has 2 cables does not make it definetly on the ring, can you advise the op how to prove if it is or isnt?
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/1/11 at 10:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by slingshot2000
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
If existing socket has 2 cables, and it is defiantely a ring.
Just because it has 2 cables does not make it definetly on the ring, can you advise the op how to prove if it is or isnt?
very easily, but this isnt a DIY guide, if OP wants to go that far into it he can google it.
Reread my wording though, the word 'and' is there to imply that two cables does not prove it a ring.
I would also point out that part p is a farce; so many people do not bother notifying work, that it seems a bit silly to tell someone they *must* do
it themselves. I dont believe anyone has been prosecuted over it. Also, the only penalty provided for is a fine per day til any non compliant work is
rectified. But they would never even get into your house in the first place unless something did go wrong. Since these people are asking for advice on
the internet, one must assume that they will get the job done to a reasonable standard if they heed what they are told, and undertake suitable
backgroudn reading before they start; and its fairly unlikely that they will electrocute themselves, in either the short term or long term.
Im not big on hoop jumping myself, especially when it involves paying for the proviledge.
That said, i did pay the NIC for one years membership before i realised it was £400 down the pan. Ah well, live and learn.
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craig1410
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| posted on 5/1/11 at 12:30 AM |
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Hi,
Firstly, let me reiterate that I appreciate any advice given whether I actually follow that advice or not.
The thing about this work being notifiable is interesting.
1. I didn't know it was notifiable and even now I only have the word of someone on a car builders forum. No offence meant, I know there are many
professionals on here and we all help each other out with off the record professional advice from time to time.
2. I only found out that it is notifiable because I sought out advice for a job that I intended to do on a DIY basis but felt I could use some
professional or semi-pro advice.
3. If I hadn't been conscienscious then I might have just blundered on and made some safety related errors. In particular, the fire risk element
of the down lighters came as a surprise to some extent. They are so common these days that you could be forgiven for not worrying about it.
I'm with JoelP on not being keen on jumping through hoops and although I support the idea of making the world a safer place, I don't think
that making the rule book thicker is the way to go. Its better to get people to act responsibly but of course this is harder as it requires good
education and good parenting which take time. I'm also pretty confident that my own DIY work, although perhaps slower than a professional, is
probably of a higher standard than a great many professionals out there. If the plumbing and electrics of my Barratt built house are anything to go by
then this is certainly the case! I don't need to worry about offending the good guys out there because they will know better than I do what
I'm referring to. If nothing else this comes about due to being free from commercial pressure. In other words, I'm not trying to make
money out of it!
So, who do these notifiable work rules actually help? If you don't know then you will go ahead anyway and potentially make serious errors which
nobody is likely to ever find out about. If you do know then it is either because you are already a professional or have sought the advice of a
professional in which case you are probably a much lower risk than the first person.
Personally I will take a common sense approach as I always try to do. I could easily argue that there was a bath and shower there before and I was
only replacing them. This is completely true and i'm not even changing the locations of them. However, common sense tells me that the overhead
light is too close to the shower and isn't even mechanically secure enough for my taste. I think the illuminated IP44 mirror is favourite at the
moment.
Thanks again to all, I trust I didn't offend anyone with my cowboy comments... :-)
Craig.
[Edited on 5/1/2011 by craig1410]
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Liam
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| posted on 5/1/11 at 12:29 PM |
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Hi - just thought I'd chime in.
You're in Scotland so rules for notification to the local council do not apply - lucky you. Similarly you dont need to worry about things like
Part M socket heights etc etc (wouldn't have to even in England for adding a single new socket). You might want to check with your council if
any of the work you propose comes under the remit of any parts of the Scotish Building Standards, but given the basic stuff you're doing, I
really doubt it.
You of course want (and need) to do a proper job, so following BS7671 (the Wiring Regs) is still recommended. Your existing light sounds like a
fitting intended for a bathroom from your description, and given that your entire ceiling is 'out of zones' and there are therefore no IP
requirements, it is perfectly compliant as is and not dangerous. For peace of mind you could consider moving it further from the bath, replacing it
for a fitting that definately is IPx4 rated, or perhaps making sure the circuit is RCD protected (or just the bathroom via use of an RCD FCU in the
circuit). You should at least verify the circuit earth at the fitting is definately connected all the way back to the main earth terminal, and
depending on the age/condition of the installation, consider a general health check (PIR) on the whole lot.
Replacing the single fitting for downlights isn't really going to offer any advantages. Having said that, the wife wanted them in ours so we
have them . Not IPx4 rated (IP21 only I think) but tick the boxes for fire (though they dont need to be fire rated), acoustic, and passage of
moisture. You can't lay insulation directly over them in the loft, but you also dont want holes in your insulation either, so you can get covers
for them to give clearance and insulate over those, or do it the locost way as I did and build plasterboard enclosures over them and insulate over. If
you dont have a huge desire for multiple downlights, just stick with a single fitting. I also have an illuminated/heated mirror. It gives enough light
for a soft ambient mood for a relaxing bath, but you wouldn't want one as your only light in the room.
The best thing I fitted in the bathroom however was a decent extractor fan - not one of those cheap rattly wall mounted things, but a loft mounted bad
boy...
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SLTDK250T.html
So nice to have a long shower and not have the walls/ceiling dripping with water afterwards. In fact after a lifetime (well, after puberty anyway) of
not being able to see in the mirror/waterfall at all when shaving after a shower, I thought the heated mirror would be a godsend. Turns out with this
extractor I dont need it at all!
Good luck.
Oh - just a few pedantic points...
1. 230V is low voltage (LV). 12V is extra low voltage [ELV]
2. There is no wiring safe zone within 6" of a floor as daniel mason suggests. Wires there would make great targets for skirting board nails !
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