DaveFJ
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 11:35 AM |
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Ok so who really wants ID cards?
Quite simple
lets see who really wants ID cards ?
[Edited on 30/6/05 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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scoobyis2cool
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 11:47 AM |
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The cost alone is enough to make most people oppose them. Then when you add the fact that they want to set up fingerprint, retina and facial
recognition systems it starts to become quite worrying!
Pete
It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care...
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smart51
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 11:56 AM |
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the stated aim is to combat terrorism.
Most criminals have forged documents. ID cards wont be any different.
The september 2001 plane hyjackers had genuine documents. It didn't stop them
The database will be target no. 1 for hackers and eventually someone will get through.
My biggest concern is that there will be a biometric database of everyone in the country. by means of CCTV, they will be able to track your
movements. I dont want a government, or other agency with that kind of surveilance power. Not because I do anything illegal but because I
don't trust them not to do anything illegal.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 11:58 AM |
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Knowing the way modern goverments work I suspect the cost the citizen/terrorist pays will suddenly come down to almost nothing--- the cost issue is
a deliberate red herring to take objectors attention from civil liberties issues.
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mookaloid
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 12:08 PM |
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It's just another symptom of the 'Nanny State' attitude of this government.
They do not seem to take our basic rights into account. They treat us like we are little children who don't know right from wrong and need to be
told what to do at every opportunity.
Well I am an adult and I hate being told what to do all the time - I didn't vote for this government and now my fears are being realised...
Rant rant rant.......
Have a nice day everyone
Cheers
Mark
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andyps
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 12:35 PM |
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Can we please submit the result to the Home Office to show public opinion.
[Edited on 30/6/05 by andyps]
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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JamieG
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 03:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
My biggest concern is that there will be a biometric database of everyone in the country. by means of CCTV, they will be able to track your
movements. I dont want a government, or other agency with that kind of surveilance power. Not because I do anything illegal but because I
don't trust them not to do anything illegal.
Thats absolutely right and Exactly what just occurred to me today ! Through the rather sinister sounding "The Register"
database we could be tracked by cameras (note:already in place!) linked to the biometric data.
This is a complete farce, if this bill is passed im leaving the country before my passport expires and i 'need to' apply for one of these
cards. 
84.62% of people agree so far
[Edited on 30/6/05 by JamieG]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 04:03 PM |
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For the life of me - I cant understand why the rejection. Ultimately we will end up paying for them anyway! Whether it be directly from your pocket or
removed from your salary as a tax - if this government wants to do it, it will! Recent history has shown us this.
If you aren't doing anything wrong - whats the problem?
[rant] This government is a little like "pop idol". The public get the right to vote - then they don't like what they vote for! Take
gareth BL00DY what's his face and Michelle McGrannus where are they now - and who the f**k cares?[/rant]
Soon this government will have changed it's colours - not much will happen. The world will keep turning ce la vie... Make the most of what you
have got and be thankful for small mercies!
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Cita
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 04:29 PM |
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ID cards will add NOTHING to the safety of citizens,on the contrary it will give criminals a pass through as the card will be accepted as correct
information.
We have ID cards as long as I can remember and we used to need to carry them from age 12!
This never stopped crime in Belgium,on the contrary I would say!
The new trend for criminals today is to take the ID cards of victims with them so they can pay a visit later on when to much talking is done by the
victims,very handy.
It's completely useless,a waste of time and money.!!!!!
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JamieG
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 05:05 PM |
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quote:
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody
all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live -- did live, from habit that became instinct -- in
the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.
(From '1984', by George Orwell.) 
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James
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 05:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
For the life of me - I cant understand why the rejection. Ultimately we will end up paying for them anyway! Whether it be directly from your pocket or
removed from your salary as a tax - if this government wants to do it, it will! Recent history has shown us this.
For the life of me I can't understand why people aren't more uncomfortable with the idea of their personal data/information all being
logged by the government- and with no right to refuse!
Regardless of whether you "have anything to hide" or not.
Politicians are there to serve us- THE PEOPLE.
They are there at our behest. It is not the case (and should not be!) that we only exist in this country 'by their permission'!
It is us who exist by default (and by right!) and not them- they are only in power because we let them rule us.
Programs such as the I.D. card scheme only re-inforce the idea that the politicians are there by some sort of divine right and that we're lucky
to be here. This is what concerns me most about the scheme.
The fact that it's going to cost a bloody fortune (both via a personal 'fee' and the cost in tax) alongside the many other
disadvantages that have been highlighted are (for me) secondary issues.
What also concerns me is the use that the data could be put to. At the moment we have a reasonably middle of the road liberal-ish government. Who
knows what sort of government we may have in the future.
I'm sure that the database as proposed could very easily contain our DNA data too (DNA tests are becoming cheaper/easier all the time).
People seem to forget that Hitler was democratically elected in Germany. It was after he was in power that his policies changed and he became more
overtly right-wing. God only knows what a future extreme government could do with the info. Probably it's extremely unlikely- but is it worth
the risk....
All the best,
James
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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James
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 05:20 PM |
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What a f%^king joke:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/simon_carr/article295475.ece
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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wilkingj
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 06:12 PM |
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1. Its not the politicians you need to worry about. its the UNELECTED Whitehall Civil Servants who collate and feed the gov't their so called
"facts" These people are as dangerous as the terrorist... the public CANT get rid of them at all.
2. As for being tracked by your biometrics... Well its a dam good street camera that can read your fingerprints from 20 yards! OK it can gauge your
height. But sunglasses, a baseball cap and a hoody will stop most of that.
What you want to worry about is if it can be read by a RFID Tag reader, then all the shops know Who is going in and out, and passing by. They can then
send you junk mail etc. and the Govt could tap into their systems and have a pile of info on everyone.
3. Its a Piss Poor Network and IT Manager who cant keep the hackers out. We do it, and keep 4000+ servers separate from each other as well, all
within the same data centre. ie not just one firewall... but hundreds of them. Breaches are rare. It just needs bloody good controls on the changes
made to the systems and firewalls. It can be done.
Breaches are usually down to Lax security and poor controls on equipment and users / people. Oh... and People Error
4. As for Big Brother watching you... They have been doing it for years. I have first hand experience of this, over something I said, about 15 years
ago, in a short conversation on the phone. My Line and may mates were not tapped in the usual way either. (Believe me I know).
If that could happen then with Old mechanical exchanges, then with the modern digital systems its easier. When It goes ALL Voice Over IP (Certainly
within the next 10 years it will be completed - My Best Guess, as BT is already building its 21CN network - read the Comms Papers and not the
comics!)
Once its all IP based, monitoring will probably be a lot easier for those nice Graduate Chappies working in Cheltenham.
I dont believe ID cards will make any damn difference to my life.
However, I hope they will help to cut down benefit fraud and Tax evasion.. I am having to pay more for those who are effectively
"stealing" my Tax money.
If it helps cut organised crime which is costing me the Tax payer an absolute fortune, then I am for it.
If they want to know where I shop, and which public Loo I use... If they just ask I can tell them and its a lot cheaper than tracking me.
Has anyone thought of the size of a monitoring network that can track everyone in a crowded street, using Biometrics alone... Shite!... Thats some
optical and data network!.
I think everyone is getting well worked up over it. And I am getting RSI from all this typing, especially when I should be down the shed swinging my
tools about and sorting the Viento.
So.. If you see a Headline in the papers... "Luigi Viento arrested in major crackdown" Then you know I was wrong!.. and that the cards
Dont work.. and I made a cloned card with my real name in it..
Have a good night..
Luigi 
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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clbarclay
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 06:13 PM |
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How often in the past has a goverment/quango computer database ever worked properly if at all (they never learn). The chances are it will cause shed
loads of greif for every body except the criminals that will make the most of the confusion and loop holes.
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JamieG
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 08:18 PM |
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2. As for being tracked by your biometrics... Well its a dam good street camera that can read your fingerprints from 20 yards! OK it can gauge your
height. But sunglasses, a baseball cap and a hoody will stop most of that.
i was thinking of the recognition of facial biometrics (as a 3D model of ones face would be encoded into said database)rather than fingerprints, short
of wearing a burka theres not much which can be done about that.
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JoelP
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 08:21 PM |
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i dont think its as bad as people make out. Yes, the system will almost certainly not work properly and cost a fortune, but thats par for the course
with any government and most big companies.
The id card will have no bank details on it (correct me if im wrong) so its not too easy to get all the info needed for a sting. Retinal scans, who
cares? they cant clone retinas yet anyway. Nearly the same for fingerprints.
As geoff points out, a combined id system for all governtment and local council departments would make it a lot easier to find out whos fiddling tax
or benefits.
And as for big brother, i really dont care whos watching. I spent a good portion of my youth paranoid about whos watching me, nowadays i couldnt care
less. Junk mail gets sent back to the sender (free) in my house, so its irrelevant how much i get.
anyway, sleep well all 
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tks
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 08:41 PM |
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they can follow you
they can follow every one they want?
WY SHOULD THEY FOLLOW YOU..??
if you talk about an database do you have an idea of how much records it will contain??
pfff....
and then Mrs / Mss should pick you out..
ohh dear lets see Blue eyes, brown hair between 180 and 190..
mhh still 2millions records left? blast!!
ok its male x% off a woman of 180-190
pff stil 1,8 million??
i would'n be scared? wy should they pick you and not another??
if they pick you its for an reason...
thats one thing for sure with such an huge database.....
it stops terrorism maybe not in the way of the acting ones but maybe it will be difficulter to deal in suchs cards..
that will result in less black money for terrorism..etc..
For the Nerds:
How long would an Server park on oracle/SQL need for picking you if you would gave it the query above? or just your id? and family?
then it will need to fill Do / Loop your spreadsheet....
pfff.... run out of memmory cant be only msg clients get.. (on 2 million records?)
i would like that every system is coupled
wy because its the easyest way of overcomeing paper hassle....
and what about they could tell in wich district the less people die??
what if you go to DLA they scan pass and you pay an gone are you? insstead of filling everywhere your Name adres tel. number you fill in your ID
number...
Then online you can see activyty of you id
(to be able to track down usage of it wich isn't permitted etc.)
maybe an bad example but it could work
one number and for example your post code
etc. etc.
Tks
[Edited on 30/6/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 09:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JamieG
quote:
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody
all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live -- did live, from habit that became instinct -- in
the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.
(From '1984', by George Orwell.)
I read that book many years ago, and it gave me nightmares then!
I am glad you quoted from that, coz I was talking to me t'other half about that book, and how real it is becoming.
I have done nothing illegal, I have nothing to hide, but I don't want anybody intruding into my life that I haven't given permission to do
so.
I am probably a good deal older than a lot of you, but I remember my grandfather telling me, after having fought in WW1, that the reason he and so
many men fought,was for our liberty, and our right to live in a free land. This too was the common conception of WW2.
If anyone who is pro ID cards can tell me why 'the government' has the right to intrude in my private life and for what good reason, and
exactly what information they will hold about me and why, I am eager to listen.
Please dont tell me its about terrorism, or illegal immigrants......we all know that is bull!
I think it makes a mockery of all of the men, women and children who died in WW1 and 2, fighting for our freedom....why are we giving up so easily.
(My personal opinions of course)
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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donut
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| posted on 30/6/05 at 09:29 PM |
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All i have to say is
GRRRRRRRRRRRR
Andy
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andywest1/
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Hellfire
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| posted on 1/7/05 at 12:51 AM |
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Watch this and listen...
CLICK ME
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timf
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| posted on 1/7/05 at 07:43 AM |
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1984 by orwel was supposed to be a warning to governments etc
this one seem to think its the textbook.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 1/7/05 at 07:46 AM |
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Hmmmm
more things wrong with that video than can be bothered to list.
Most basic is it is hugely out of date with what the home office of disinformation is now saying about card usage.....
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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Fozzie
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| posted on 1/7/05 at 09:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by timf
1984 by orwel was supposed to be a warning to governments etc
this one seem to think its the textbook.
ExactlyTim.....
I also listened to that video, thought it was well outdated too, and thought hmmm 'commi' propaganda.....
Now, surprise surprise,after the election, they tell us how many 'illegals' they think are here, assuming that the electorate
don't have a brain cell between us and trying to 'scare' us all in to wanting ID cards..
How are they going to implement the 'illegals' situation that is any different to what they are not doing now, when the illegals/assylum
seekers cry human rights etc etc?......
(my personal opinions of course)!
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/7/05 at 09:27 PM |
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quite true fozzie, but no one ever thought that this was our countries only problem! They need to be tough on every issue, boot out failed assylum
seekers, sanctions on the french for their various misdemeanours, more prisons, generally stop pissing about. hanging for some crimes, rewrite the
human rights act (which muppet proof read that before it was signed off?! :mad
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Fozzie
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| posted on 1/7/05 at 09:53 PM |
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Absolutely Joel I just cannot see why we need ID cards per se!
I totally agree with what you say, but being continuing members of Europe, we will not be able to do any of your suggestions....the Court of Human
Rights spring to mind. I interpret the governments reasons to the electorate for having ID cards as being primarily to counteract terrorism
and the influx of illegal immigrants.
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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