NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:29 PM |
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I completely agree Jumpy Guy, my viewpoint exactly.
Hearing views of those touched by problems does give me a twinge of guilt over my opinion though.
Certainly I think that tobacco being legal while many other and "less reputable" drugs are not is totally ridiculous.
Several of these "other drugs" are physically counter-addictive, and can only be used for a relatively short period before they become
ineffective, whereas tobacco is completely the reverse!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Jumpy Guy
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:39 PM |
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People who are predisposed to have porblems such as addiction, will always have problems.
very sad, but true.
you cant legislate for this- drugs are illegal, yet lots and lots od people still take em.
its a health care issue, not a prohibition issue.
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ditchlewis
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 01:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jumpy Guy
People who are predisposed to have porblems such as addiction, will always have problems.
very sad, but true.
you cant legislate for this- drugs are illegal, yet lots and lots od people still take em.
its a health care issue, not a prohibition issue.
in may ways i agree
but how do you protect the vunerable? if the the market in drugs (what ever nature) was totally un regulated and the drugs easily accessable, then how
do we protect the child and the vunerable.
i think that our currant problems would explode and society would then have a very very expensive problem, socially and ecomomically...
i have lived with someone for 12 years who had serious mental health problems and i can tell you that care in the community does not work. the effects
of the illness are not just on the ill person, it is their partners, children, familly and friends (if they have any). if you have a family to look
after you the government dont care this = no care in the community.
drugs of all types, be it alcohol, nicotine, cocaine, hash, video games etc are a huge problem for the vunerable who as children and even adults, have
no knowlege if they have this addictive streak or not. if left unchecked this will impact in a huge way on society.
we are in a moral dilema and there is no right answer
sorry about that, just off to the pub for a drink and to lighten up 
ditch
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MikeR
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 01:14 PM |
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Seem to recall having this conversation a little while ago walking back from the pub NS Dev )
I've got an interesting view on this. I know i've got an adicitive personality so stay away from most adicitive substances. Heck, i even
try to avoid adictive activities as i'm a bit of an adrenalin junkie.
Alcohol was invited as a way of purifying water so it was drinkable as said before. The Chinese found a different way of doing this - boil it! Smoking
was brough to England something like 400 years ago.
These things are now entrenched in our culture and whilst known to have harmeful effects, society is used to coping / ignoring them.
Drug abuse is a relatively modern concept. As such society has recognised the potential effects, decided that the risks to society in general are too
high and has made them illegal and driven them underground. What would be interesting would be a comparitive study of the effects of the drug vs. the
effects of trying to get the illegal drug (Crime etc)
If you look around the world, it will take a very brave government to legalise a lot of illegal drugs as the risk (if only of not getting re-elected
is very high). Read Ben Eltons "high society" for an interesting take on the situation.
My personal view is that we have three choices, stick with a version of what we have now, ie managed risk. Decide life should be precious and ban
everything damaging or go the other way, legalise everything. No solution is anywhere near ideal so with a lot of implications very few people
understand ....... so lets make the best of what we've got.
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Jumpy Guy
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 01:25 PM |
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If we legalise drugs, then we can regulate to a far higher level.
Have a minimum age of purchase, then rigorous licence control.
absolutley hammer anyone who produces them illegally. To be honest, Customs and Excise would be involved, since it would be a tax evasion issue.
As for mental health, you're right. People with addictive personality should self regulate. It should be taught as a welfare/ healthcare
issue.
This is not a drugs issue. As someone else mentioned, kids and adults become addicted to many weird things- Video Games, Football., porn on the
internet, text messaging, chat rooms.
We cant cover all of these by law, can we??
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flak monkey
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 01:51 PM |
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Legalisation of drugs has one major flaw:
By legalising something you are saying that in societies eyes its ok to do it. Regardless of the dangers to health etc etc
Remember that age restrictions on things are not enforceable (how many 12-16 year olds do you see smoking??). So how would you feel if your kid came
home high or whatever? And you have no grounds on which to say they shouldnt be, as its legal?
Also remember some class A drugs are actually instantly addictive, heroin being one (also one of the most destructive mentally).
The only thing stopping a lot of sensible people (especially youngsters) trying drugs is the fact they are illegal and hard to obtain.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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ditchlewis
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 02:03 PM |
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well that pint was good and i am less on my high horse
quote:
Originally posted by Jumpy Guy
As for mental health, you're right. People with addictive personality should self regulate. It should be taught as a welfare/ healthcare
issue.
This is not a drugs issue. As someone else mentioned, kids and adults become addicted to many weird things- Video Games, Football., porn on the
internet, text messaging, chat rooms.
We cant cover all of these by law, can we??
people with addictive natures cannot self regulate, my ex would smoke 40 to 80 cigarets a day, and if she could not have one i would be sent
out in the middle of the night to find one (easier than all the shouting and screeming).
on an much lighter side, my fiance's ex is addicted to internet porn. he recently asked her to shave his B***s for him so he could post pictures
of himself on a certain site he had found
she said no, but had to admit that it had crossed her mind to take the opportunity to cut them off.
shame on him and Ex copper and all!!!!!
regards
Ditch
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Jumpy Guy
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 02:17 PM |
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Illegal drugs are hard to obtain?
I think that we all know that that is utterlu untrue. I've lived in six cities in the past 8 years.
In all of those cities, I've been made aware of exactly where to buy drugs. In many, i've seen drugs buys, in pubs, clubs, alleys.
BTW I'm a dull bloke. I dont know lunatics. I dont take drugs. I'm utterly unconnected to the underworld. And i make no effort to find
these things out.
Now, if i was 15, and made effort, then I'd find out a heck of a lot quicker.
My point is that we have to accept that people who want to try drugs, WILL try drugs. Easy to get. Cheapest they've ever been. Cheaper than
booze.
Ok, sothese vulnerable people really want to take drugs, and they have the means to get them.
surely you dont want your kids down some dodgy estate, off some hoodlum.....
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Benzine
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 02:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DorsetStriderAlthough I would also say that anyone that takes any halucinagenic substance should really take a look
at their lives. People turn to drugs as a means of escapism. Drugs will not solve any problems only you can do that.
If someone is taking halicinagenic drugs for escapism then, yes, that's bad. Some people, however, can report life altering experiences, i.e.
seeing life in a new way, learning more about oneself.
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Overdosing on paracetemol is more dangerous than overdosing on alcohol but whenever a smoking ban is discussed, someone whinges about alcohol but
never paracetomol.
Someone who has overdosed on paracetamol isn't as likely to beat me up on the street but I know what you mean by affecting others i.e. family
members etc
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Peteff
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 02:32 PM |
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If they were buying their drugs with money they had earned I wouldn't mind, it's the misery and damage they cause breaking into property
and stealing cars etc. to fund their habit, then when they go to court their addiction is used as an excuse for their crime. They should be made to
accept full responsibility for their criminal action not given lighter sentences so they can get back to their next fix quicker.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 03:13 PM |
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Now that I really agree with Pete!
Responsibility for ones actions!!!
Unfortunately over-legislation tends to surpress this in a society (just look at the explosion of "claims culture" )
This is one of my most hated things about society today, the culture of "nothing is an accident" and "must be someone elses
fault"
Sometimes we trip over and break a leg, and it's our fault. Likewise sometimes "one" might use an illegal substance, and again must
face the consequences, not I feel in terms of the use of the substance, but in terms of how this affects the persons life.
If somebody becomes hooked on smack, they need to face the fact that they are goign to have to pay for it, which will probably be impossible, and
result in crime, therefore they must avoid becoming hooked on it to start with.............
Now if only it were that simple, but in overall terms, that's how I see it!
[Edited on 16/2/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeR
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 05:51 PM |
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Jumpy Guy - perhaps i'm blind but i've lived in 3 different towns / cities. None reknowned for having no drug users. I've NEVER
knowingly seen anyone sell drugs!
Pete - i agree people should be made to face up to the consequences of there actions but ......... if you can get drugs in prison, prisons are over
crowded, we don't have enough rehab spaces ....... what chance do we have? Everyone is unique and needs to be treated as such, each person needs
tailored punishment to make them understand what they have done, why it is wrong and help not to reoffend.
So perhaps the question is not should we legalise these substances but should we improve society so rehabilitiation happens, reduce the desire / need
for people to want escapism, improve the quality of the products so people aren't made ill by side effects........ and a whole load of other
impossible things?
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RazMan
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 06:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Everyone is unique and needs to be treated as such, each person needs tailored punishment to make them understand what they have done, why it is wrong
and help not to reoffend.
Quite right - a lot of habitual offenders look at prison as being a little 'time off' from their usual chosen career. The punishment
should fit the individual and not neccessarily the crime.
The community service scheme is one area which works quite weel IMO. So let drug junkies do their time helping in hospices and rehab centres and show
them the ugly side to their habit.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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MikeR
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 06:32 PM |
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I'd love to see people putting back into the commuity. Vandals being forced to fix other vandels mess but in there community. Perhaps i
don't understand but if you made me repeatidly fix up someone elses destruction, i think i'd get the message to stop destroying things.
I loved the story about the joy riders who built a car as part of rehab. Did everything, made it immaculate and on the last day of the course they got
a day out ....... at a banger racing night with there car entered. I believe they all learned there lesson - especially after they had the debrief.
Only problem as it was so widely reported everyone knows about this now.
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nitram38
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 06:52 PM |
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Most of the crimes today can be directly attributed to drugs.
Shop lifting, burglary and muggings have gone up in society since more drugs came on the scene.
As to legalising everything, are you advocating that those who want to can do it and then use crime to fund it?
I live in a democracy and if they put it to a vote, most people would ban them.
They don't just destroy the users lives.
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Simon
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 09:08 PM |
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TAX, TAX, TAX, TAX
That's all it's about.
Drive an uneconomical car, pay more tax; smoke more, pay more tax; Drink more, pay more tax.
The government couldn't give a poo about peoples health or the environment.
If they wanted a healthy nation, smoking/drinking etc would all be illegal. If they wanted to protect the environment, they'd ban all IC engines
and shoot all the cows.
ATB
Simon
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wilkingj
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 09:21 PM |
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legal or not... Ask a biochemist what these substances do to your brain chemistry. Most of the illegal ones can have a permanant change to your brain
chemistry.
I would rather take risks with my viento than the inside of my head.
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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Marcus
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 09:56 PM |
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Interesting thread,
Maybe I'm a little naive, but as neither I, nor any of my friends have had anything to do with illegal drugs, I can't really be
objective.
BUT I feel de-criminalising would be a huge mistake.
Drugs harm almost everyone in society. As has been said before most burglaries, muggings, car thefts are directly attributable to drug taking.
It's a dangerous thing to allow kids and other vulnerable people easy access to such things. Even alcohol, I feel, should be more regulated.
There are loads of kids drinking at home, when they get bored of that buzz, it's drugs.
Perhaps my views aren't popular, but that's how I feel. A friend of mine has an alcoholic wife (she was always obsessive, a workaholic
before she was made redundant) I rarely see him - HE's become withdrawn and never goes out, scared of leaving her with a bottle.
Depressing situation for all concerned.
Marcus
Marcus
Because kits are for girls!!
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MikeR
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 10:59 PM |
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pretty popular views from where i'm sitting!
people talk about freedom of choice. How about if i decide to break into your house, should i be allowed to do that? What about mug you, shoot you,
blackmail you, kill you? Ok, extreme, but what about disturb the peace, throw my rubbish in your garden, vandalise your walls?
Breaking the law is breaking the law. We have laws there to protect society from *US*. We are animals at the end of the day & if we're not
regulated we revert to type (remember the rose bowl or what ever in new orleans?)
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JoelP
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:11 PM |
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It boils down to what we are here for. Some would argue we are only here to have fun, and get as high as possible in as many different ways as
possible - i know a few people who will literally try anything, even homemade chemicals (locost at least!). It is possible to hold down a job and live
this way, though i suspect crack and heroin cannot be used like this unless you are a rock star...
I dont believe that sh*t myself, i never drink to excess anymore (literally, usually sober enough to drive home). I grew out of drugs years ago, and
feel nothing but pity for my old friends who havent changed since they were 18 - rented house, same crap job as when they left school, no sign of
savings, no real achievements except a load of blurred memories, and doing nothing constructive with their lives.
The lad i employ is struggling with cocaine, knows its shite but cant leave it for good as he got all his friends into it and it seems too normal when
he's with them. He's 22 and going nowhere fast.
Legalising it would make no difference to people who are already into drugs, as its all easy to get hold of. But as flak monkey says, it sends the
wrong message IMHO, that it is moral. It isnt.
As for whre the line is crossed with regards to acceptable pastime and unacceptable substance abuse, like all things its a slippery slope. You can
draw the line where you like, but it is undenyable that there is a line somewhere - would NS dev or jumpy guy make heroin or crack legal? Do you
understand how powerful these things are?
And finally, i know a few people who have been sectioned after cannabis use. Some people just have paranoid personalities and dont stand a chance.
I support the smoking ban simply because im a selfish sinner, i dont give a toss about smokers rights and i dont care who dislikes me. One day i hope
to live in a world where people care enough that i can care back, and worry about compromises, but it wont happen in this life.
nite all.
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Jumpy Guy
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:42 PM |
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legalise cocaine and crack? yep, i'm afraid i would.
and yes, i have seen the effects of drugs on people, and my wife is a forensic psychologist, so i understand the mental health aspect.
As an aside, one of her patients recently tried to kill themselves with an OD, and was rushed to hospital.
On wakening, she was then charged with possesion of a class A drug.
If someone can tell me how that helped this persons problems, or improved society as a whole,then I'd love to hear it.
I have also seen an uncle die, riddled with cancer as the result of a 20 a day habit. I never met two of my grandparents- both also the Big C, both
also heavy smokers.
I've seen cousins killed in crappy wars, and i've seen friends seriously injured in motorsports, one of whom has been in a vegetative
state for three years.
So, from a purely selfish point of view, I could put rational arguments forward to ban all tobacco products, all armed responses, all motor sport. All
of these achieve very little towards the common good, cost millions, and result in death.
And have huge knock on effect on friends and family.
My point is- legislation achieves very little. Most of the objections are about knock on effects of criminality- burgulary, muggings. If these
vulnerable people could ask for help without fear of prosecution, then maybe we could begin to deal with the problems that drive people to drug
use.
An interesting point- statisticaly, a few people on this website will have had serious drug problems in the past. I'd be interested in their
viewpoint, rather than the rest of us soapbox loiterers.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 20/2/06 at 08:51 AM |
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Again very well put Jumpy Guy.
regarding experiences, a very good mate of mine has (in the past) taken most substances to considerable excess, not including heroin.
I regard his opinion as pretty reliable on that basis, and he is probably the most level headed, reliable, astute and generally likeable person that I
know.
As was said, the effects of substances evidently depends on the mental condition of the taker, as with him, they seem to have had little or no
permanent effect.
[Edited on 20/2/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 20/2/06 at 09:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
It boils down to what we are here for. Some would argue we are only here to have fun, and get as high as possible in as many different ways as
possible - i know a few people who will literally try anything, even homemade chemicals (locost at least!). It is possible to hold down a job and live
this way, though i suspect crack and heroin cannot be used like this unless you are a rock star...
I don't think that's what we're here for, but then what are we here for?????
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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JoelP
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| posted on 20/2/06 at 09:20 AM |
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build cars! and maybe enjoy natural highs...
damn that sounds hippy like
[Edited on 20/2/06 by JoelP]
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Benzine
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| posted on 20/2/06 at 01:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Surrey Dave
Deceased American comedian Bill Hicks, did a great routine about substances.
He was a brilliant man Some more drug related Bill quotes:
"The rock stars today who don't do drugs and who in fact speak out against drugs – 'We're rock against drugs!' ... Boy,
they suck."
"You see, I think drugs have done some good things for us. I really do. And if you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me
a favour. Go home tonight. Take all your albums, all your tapes and all your CDs and burn them. 'Cause you know what, the musicians that made
all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years ... rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreal f**king high on drugs. The Beatles were so high
they let Ringo sing a few songs"
"Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you."
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