skinned knuckles
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 09:57 AM |
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employment law question.
Hi All,
i have a member of staff that has requested to work a 17hour double shift and i am strugling to get a definative answer to wether this is legal or
not. All of the advice i am getting so far seems to be that i cannot make him do it, but not if i can allow him to do it.
He works nights for me and that shift is 10 hours but he also wishes to work the morning shift of 7 hours immediately following on from this. he is
more than capeable of doing this as he has helped us out in the past when one of the morning staff didn't turn up.
employment lawcan be a bit of a grey area and i have been stung before in an employment tribunal so don't want to hammered again.
cheers
A man isn't complete until he's married, then he's finished
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coozer
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:00 AM |
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Say thank you very much for the offer. You are a much valued employee and as a reward we will pay you the full 17 hours but do not need you. Get
yourself off to bed, thanks.
Keeps him happy, keeps you legal. Nice..
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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deezee
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:00 AM |
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Night Working Restrictions
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:01 AM |
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Working Hours Directive needs to be reffered to
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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blakep82
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:02 AM |
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last year, when i was doing that pig flu thing, people were regularly asking for overtime doing 16 hour shifts. can't see its a problem as long
as he's got breaks at regular times. and by working long and getting tired, it won't be dangerous.
ie 16 hours graphic design, ok
16 hours on heavy machinery, not ok
again, don't know the law, but as long as he's requested it and you're not forcing him to, i think its ok
________________________
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tomprescott
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:02 AM |
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I'm not sure, might be dependent upon the line of work, things I woud think of are if he sustains an injury and blames it on you for making him
work too many hours at a tribunal, or worse, if he causes damage to a customer or their property as a result of being overly tired.
Get him to sign a waiver saying that it was his choice to work the double shift, stating that if anything happens as a result of his exhaustion, he
takes full responsibility personally.
A bird in the hand....
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blakep82
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
Say thank you very much for the offer. You are a much valued employee and as a reward we will pay you the full 17 hours but do not need you. Get
yourself off to bed, thanks.
Keeps him happy, keeps you legal. Nice..
good idea til he keeps asking and expects it, or other staff hear and are less than happy 
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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skinned knuckles
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by deezee
Night Working Restrictions
i run a business that is listed under "limits do not apply" of the night worker section. however the extra shift he wants to work is a day
shift so night limitations dont apply. its more the 17hour shift request that concerns me. everything seems geered to what i can reasonably ask the
employee to do. not what the employee has asked me to allow him to do. a bit awkward i know.
A man isn't complete until he's married, then he's finished
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James
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:09 AM |
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Is Tiny Tim starving at home?
You'll just end up with a knackered, useless employee in my opinion. No one can function 100% when they've worked for that long. I really
can't see why it's in your interest to allow him to do it.
Unless it night watchman and he gets to sleep through most of it anyway!
Just my opinion, but I reckon you're better off saying no. 
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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smart51
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:15 AM |
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Maximum regular hours must not exceed an average of 8 hours in any 24 but you can do overtime in addition to this. You must have 11 hours between
shifts. If your guy works a 17 hour shift then he can't start his next shift until 28 hours later, i.e. the next day plus 4 hours. If he works
the double shift on a Friday then has Saturday off, for example, you'd be OK I think.
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blakep82
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:19 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
You must have 11 hours between shifts.
i thought it was 8? thats what they told us last year anyway, because on some shift changes we'd finish at midnight, then be in 8am, but that
only happened like once a month or something
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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steve m
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:25 AM |
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"Maximum regular hours must not exceed an average of 8 hours in any 24 "
so what about us shift worker 2 days 2 nights 4 off all 12 hour or longer shifts, with no lunch or tea breaks when busy
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blakep82
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 10:32 AM |
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heres a new one to throw in, watching trawlermen on dave, just said they'd all been working 18hours a day for a week. also, i guess, technically
while at sea they're always at work?
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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iank
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 01:15 PM |
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I'd be cautious about it if he's working on machinery or in an environment where he can injure himself or others. If something goes wrong
you don't want HSE on your case over the long shift he's been working.
Lorry drivers obviously can't work shifts like that.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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smart51
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 01:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve m
so what about us shift worker 2 days 2 nights 4 off all 12 hour or longer shifts, with no lunch or tea breaks when busy
To quote Judas Priest "Breakin' the Law! Breakin' the Law!"
You must be given a break of at least 30 minutes if you work more than so many hours in a shift. You cannot opt out of this.
4 shifts of 12 hours in 8 days averages 6 hours per day. You're OK there.
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TimC
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 04:24 PM |
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Essentially, if its risk assessed (write it down and file it but does not need to take long to do!), you'll be fine. I would not make a habit
of it but as a one off assuming its a relatively safe environment, not lone working and not using say a grinder you'll both be ok.
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JoelP
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 06:18 PM |
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i wouldnt. They will be your best pal up til the moment they decide to sue you. Signing a disclaimer is pointless as you cannot absolve yourself of
responsibility for his wellbeing.
If anything went wrong you would simply not be able to explain to the HSE why you had a tired man on the job.
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LoMoss
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| posted on 11/6/10 at 06:56 PM |
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If this is a one off then you will be OK. He's requesting to do it and you are not asking him to. What everyone is referring to here is the
Working Time Directive (Working Time Regulations) which states that any worker must have a continuous rest break of 11 hours. The WTD also says that
no-one must work 48 hours or more in any one week, averaged over 17 weeks. If you want to play extra safe, ask him/her to sign an opt-out (basically
a 3 line document that says that they are wishing to work this and are waiving their rights under the WTD). You can't have your employee do
this kind of shift often, it should only be done on an exceptional basis otherwise you will have the health & safety police on your back too.
Essentially the WTD was brought in to stop unscrupulous employers from taking advantage of employees. Not sure if your guys have employment contracts
- if so, need to make sure you are paying any additional hours at the appropriate rate i.e. if they work more than x hours in any one week then
additional hours may be paid at an enhanced rate i.e. 1.5 times or 2 times normal hourly rate. Just something to consider. At the end of his shift,
he must have the appropriate rest break. Assume you're also aware that nightworkers have special rules about risk assessments and the like. If
you google Working Time Regulations you will get all the info there. Hope this helps.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 12/6/10 at 10:12 PM |
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I thought it was 12 hours between shifts...
As far as I know there's theoretically no problem with the length of the shift in itself, but what you have to think of is him being tired both
on shift and going home. I'd imagine if it comes out that the guy who fell asleep and ploughed into a bunch of kids had come off a 17 hours
shift you're up poo creek without a paddle.
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