Rorty
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| posted on 19/7/05 at 09:49 PM |
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A different perspective on the Islamic threat.
This is one German who gets it... Matthias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the German publishing giant, Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack
in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily newspaper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.
EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)
A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get
out of your head because it's so terribly true.
Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they
noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades,
inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.
Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated
and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do
our work for us.
Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now
countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.
Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by
the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of
the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U. N. Oil-for-Food program.
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement...
How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a
"Muslim Holiday" in Germany. I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our
(German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State
"MuslimHoliday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.
One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European
"Peace in our time".
What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious
crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon
Western Civilization's utter destruction.
It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy
that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be,
and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.
Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing
half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral
conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have
passed.
In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values
and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.
On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of
"tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I
fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.
For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American
economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons " of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our
Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or
our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".
These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking
into a neighbor's house
Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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the JoKeR
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| posted on 19/7/05 at 11:20 PM |
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Wow! You get four weeks of vacation??
Seriously though, I found that a very interesting read, which will no-doubt be fodder for many. Personally, I tend to agree with most of what he
said.
Am I the only one who sees the irony in a German talking of 'appeasement'?
__________________________
Jeff
http://www.midwestwelding.com
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/
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Peteff
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 01:02 AM |
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Is this religion or politics? Can we tell the difference? Their religion versus our politics, whose belief is stronger? my god versus your government,
who has most to offer, it's all coming down to reward in the end. I'll not risk everything for a promise of a better afterlife with 30
virgins throwing themselves at me when it's no better than what I already have. If everyone sees what they want and is able to obtain it without
blowing themselves and whoever they see as their enemy of the moment to kingdom come then they will probably stop doing it.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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the JoKeR
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 02:24 AM |
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For some people, religion IS their politics. I prefer to live in the here-and-now, and not bank it all on promises of an afterlife. I'm not
saying any specific religion is right or wrong - I don't subscribe to any of them, personally - but I didn't understand it with the
Japanese Kamakaze in WWII and I don't understand it with the Muslim extremeists. I guess my will to live is stronger than my desire to kill my
enemies. And I'm 100% thankful for that.
__________________________
Jeff
http://www.midwestwelding.com
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/
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JoelP
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 07:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
I'll not risk everything for a promise of a better afterlife with 30 virgins throwing themselves at me when it's no better than what I
already have.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 08:28 AM |
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I'd like to know where all the virgins are going to come from?
And what happens when they are deflowered?
Do you get a new one?
And does this mean that all of the fellas who don't kill themselves for their thirty virgins, are ,err, well, they have to 'look after
themselves'.?
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Noodle
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 09:40 AM |
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I think there are confusing motivations for the west to 'Democratise' the east.
They (we?) say people desire democracy. I think that's pap. Adam Smith hit the nail squarely on the head - people are greedy. They desire
consumerism.
The Soviet Union didn't fall to democracy. It fell to Baywatch and Levi Strauss. Franco recognised it, Hitler recognised it and our leaders laud
it as the true and righteous way. Take away 24-7 TV and endless cheap consumer durables and you've got political unrest.
How many times have we thought "I must get involved in this political process and affect change throughout the world"? Honest and
realistically, we think "I want a BEC/bigger house/portable DVD player/42" TV/Amarni suit/Snap-On tools etc"
This German correspondant has correctly identified us as greedy. Our "moral compass" waivers alarmingly when our supply of cheap imported
consumer durables is threatened. Where will the oil come from etc?
We musn't confuse democracy with consumerism! Our arrogance and our righteousness is dangerous/hilarious (I'm not sure which)
Neil.
Your sort make me sick
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alfasudsprint
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 02:30 PM |
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Whilst not personally liking Bush, I have to align myself with the comments made in the article, most it very well founded. People
'understand' suicide bombers in israel!!! After decades of bombing and killing Israelis, Arabs now want to be understood!
On another note, I dont think we should push our ideologies onto other nations who dont want them, like Iran for example, but must stand up for what
is right and wrong, sometimes it is as simple and difficult as that, Kosovo and now Darfur being excellent examples.
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Jumpy Guy
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 03:14 PM |
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"For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the
American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.
"
sorry i cant agree; Bush doesnt need a war to risk the collapse of the US economy, his home economic policies have always been catastrophic...
even before our "war on terror" independant pundits were speculating that what Bush really needed was a war of some sort- historically,
war time presidents/prime ministers are cut more slack on the home economy front.
not to mention the huge arms industry figures at play in the background.
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Dale
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 03:51 PM |
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I think most of all the problems come from the "MY God can beat up your God" bull s#$t. Could you imagine the UN uproar if the States ,
France, UK, Canada ect leader(who ever and when ever it might be) started killing thousands of there own people who publically dissagreed with them or
were a political threat to them. But when its genicide somewhere - oh we should discuss this as we dont want to offend these nice people who just
dont want this half million people of different religion living in there country.
Dale
Thanks
Dale
my 14 and11 year old boys 22
and 19 now want to drive but have to be 25 before insurance will allow. Finally on the road
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splitrivet
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 06:14 PM |
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Personally i think we should do what us Brits did back in the 17th and 18 th centuries round up all these loony clerics and trouble makers and deport
em to Australia.
That'll teach the bastards.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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jack trolley
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 posted on 20/7/05 at 06:26 PM |
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"Death to the giant teapot!" 
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steve_gus
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 06:42 PM |
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when you are dead, you dont have a body. When you dont have a body, you dont have a penis. Not a lot of use having 30 virgins who also wont have a
body in the spirit world.
I also suspect that 30 virgins get a bit boring through time eternal.........
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
I'd like to know where all the virgins are going to come from?
And what happens when they are deflowered?
Do you get a new one?
And does this mean that all of the fellas who don't kill themselves for their thirty virgins, are ,err, well, they have to 'look after
themselves'.?
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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Noodle
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 07:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
Personally i think we should do what us Brits did back in the 17th and 18 th centuries round up all these loony clerics and trouble makers and deport
em to Australia.
That'll teach the bastards.
Cheers,
Bob
Why not do it the other way round? Give 'em the UK and we'll go to the sun!
Neil.
Your sort make me sick
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splitrivet
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 07:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jack trolley
"Death to the giant teapot!"
Now now,Im from the Potteries the spiritual home of all teapots.
Anymore talk like this and I'll be forced to get a Fatwa out on ya.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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splitrivet
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 07:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Noodle
quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
Personally i think we should do what us Brits did back in the 17th and 18 th centuries round up all these loony clerics and trouble makers and deport
em to Australia.
That'll teach the bastards.
Cheers,
Bob
Why not do it the other way round? Give 'em the UK and we'll go to the sun!
Neil.
Damn good idea , but they'd have to take all the Auzzies out first and hold em somewhere just off the coast until we've all left Neil.
Cheers,
Bob
[Edited on 20/7/05 by splitrivet]
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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Rorty
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 09:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
quote:
Originally posted by Noodle
quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
Personally i think we should do what us Brits did back in the 17th and 18 th centuries round up all these loony clerics and trouble makers and deport
em to Australia.
That'll teach the bastards.
Cheers,
Bob
Why not do it the other way round? Give 'em the UK and we'll go to the sun!
Neil.
Damn good idea , but they'd have to take all the Auzzies out first and hold em somewhere just off the coast until we've all left Neil.
Cheers,
Bob
Please let me know if I can facilitate this in any way. I'll even line up seven virgins for each and every man willing to participate, though
I'd have to import them too as there aren't any left here.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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splitrivet
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| posted on 20/7/05 at 11:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
when you are dead, you dont have a body. When you dont have a body, you dont have a penis. Not a lot of use having 30 virgins who also wont have a
body in the spirit world.
I also suspect that 30 virgins get a bit boring through time eternal.........
atb
steve
After you'd been with the 30 virgins for 6 months they'd have you redecorating paradise and moving all the furniture around,and as for not
having a penis when your dead. if anyone see's me at the next show just nip over and take my pulse cos 25 years of marriage must be like being a
zombie.
If anyone tells my missus thier in for it.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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Jasper
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| posted on 21/7/05 at 11:41 AM |
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THIS GERMAN GUY IS AN ABSOLUTE F*CKING MUPPET
I can't believe a national news organisation gave him any airtime - so much of what he says is absolute b*llocks - it's scary.
There's absolutely no way that you'll beat Muslim fanatics by being more fanatical than they are - we're just not crazy enough and
willing enough to throw our lives away...
And what the f*ck did invading Iraq have to do with the war on terror? Do you really feel any safer? Why didn't they carry on pursuing
O'Sama in Afghanistan?
And if we're gonna march into every country that abuses and tortures it citizens you'd better all get you're cheque books at - cos
it's a very very long list - including very many of our so called allies.
And all this sh*t about Palistine and Israel really irritates me. Ok - here's one for you:
England looses WW11 and our country is under the control of Germany. They feel bad about what they did to the Jews and want to make amends. They
declare England 'empty' and say to all the European Jews left after the hollocaust go and settle in the UK - take over the British peoples
homes and treat it like your own country. Then America starts providing them with military help, lots of guns, tanks, planes and training. They decide
to move into Birmingham, clear all you Brummies out of your homes by force and tell you to p*ss off and go live up a Welsh mountain with no work or
future. Oh yes - and all you have to fight them with are sticks and rocks. Now, I'm not condoning killing innocent civilians, but if it were you
how would you feel and what would you do? (BTW - I've only used this as an example - I'm not anti-semetic and have many Jews friends and
customers)
Oh - I could go on and on and on - but I'd better go and earn some more dirty money .......
[Edited on 21/7/05 by Jasper]
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Deckman001
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| posted on 21/7/05 at 12:01 PM |
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I'm off to go Fishing next weekend,, can i have all the worms from the cans you have just opened !!
Jason
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Jasper
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| posted on 21/7/05 at 12:09 PM |
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'coarse you can Jason - there'll be plenty
[Edited on 21/7/05 by Jasper]
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MikeP
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| posted on 21/7/05 at 04:14 PM |
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Some if this reads like we believe our own propoganda. Muslims are willing to die to force the rest of the world to become muslim? None of the ones I
know are. Many christian missionaries have died trying to convert savages, so it's not without precedence - though I don't personally
know any of those either.
Killing innocent civilians in a war? I guess we've become more civilized since WW2 (Dresden, Hiroshima). We're surprised the rest of the
world hasn't caught up? After 12000 years "civilized war" is a pretty recent (and maybe temporary) concept. Much of the world still
lacks the technology let alone the will.
Suicide bombers, kamakazees aren't so hard to understand - aren't all soldiers supposed to be willing to die for their country/beliefs?
It's not like there are many other ways to attack. Conventional warfare is out - look what the US did to the Iraqi army.
This war is supposed to be against terrorists, not Muslims, right? Some of the comments here sure sound neo-nazi - unintentional I hope  .
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locogeoff
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| posted on 21/7/05 at 04:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeP
This war is supposed to be against terrorists, not Muslims, right? Some of the comments here sure sound neo-nazi - unintentional I hope .
When you were young and your heart was an open book,
You used to say live and let live.
(You know you did, you know you did, you know you did.)
But if this ever changing world in which we live in,
Makes you give in and cry...
Say live and let die.
(Live and let die.)
Live and let die.
(Live and let die.)
and I also hope its unintentional, as, if we go down the retaliation route we're going to hell in a bucket, and we're not going to enjoy
the ride
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JoelP
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| posted on 21/7/05 at 05:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeP
Suicide bombers, kamakazees aren't so hard to understand - aren't all soldiers supposed to be willing to die for their
country/beliefs?
I may be wrong, but im guessing that the vast majority of soldiers hope to live - even on a particularily bad mission, they would hope to be the lucky
ones who get back home in one piece. Suicide missions is a whole different league.
quote:
It's not like there are many other ways to attack. Conventional warfare is out - look what the US did to the Iraqi army.
Ive just worked out what you meant here, but cant be bothered deleting the quote - for a minute it read like you were implying that the US army used
non conventional weapons in iraq, rather than what i guess you really meant, namely that the iraqi army got demolished and now other dissidents know
that conventional attacks will not get them anywhere.
I think that the terrorist/muslim divide is blurred in some peoples minds - some people wont be too bothered if they are being unfair on innocent
people. Its a shame, as its all more fuel for the fire of hate.
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MikeP
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| posted on 22/7/05 at 04:39 AM |
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I agree, I think most soldiers want/expect to live - putting aside how many allied soldiers volunteered for suicide missions in those old WW2 movies
 .
You got my point - a lot of the diatribes we see try to make Muslims and terrorists seem insane so they're easier to hate. But what sane person
would fight "fair" in a battle they know they can't win?
Both sides start 'em young - kids think they'll live forever, and it's easier to get kids passionately devoted to a cause.
If the powers that be really wanted *terrorist* attacks to stop the obvious way would be to stop interfering in the affairs of other peoples. That
isn't going to happen, and probably shouldn't. But I don't believe our propaganda that terrorists are insane any more than I
believe the invasion of Iraq was a humanitarian act rather than political self interest.
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