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water cooling turbo
beaver34 - 18/12/10 at 03:09 PM

i have a water cooled turbo on my new engine build,

where in the cooling setup do the pipes need to be going in and out for this ideally?

thanks

austin man - 18/12/10 at 03:22 PM

I reckon you could use the pipes that would have fed the heater matrix in the standard set up after all its only a flow through the cooler

l0rd - 18/12/10 at 03:47 PM

as said but what i would do, is get a heater matrix with a fan and a switch. When you are pushing the engine, you can switch on the fan and keep the turbo feed a bit cooler.

beaver34 - 18/12/10 at 03:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by austin man
I reckon you could use the pipes that would have fed the heater matrix in the standard set up after all its only a flow through the cooler


i have had them blanked off, its only a very small fitting for the tubo anyway

ill have a think about it

britishtrident - 18/12/10 at 04:02 PM

Use a small 12v water pump from a Webasto diesel burning heater, water pump plumbed from the bottom hose through the turbo back to the top hose.

To protect the turbo the pump and cooling fan should be arranged to run for a couple of minutes after engine switch off.

[Edited on 18/12/10 by britishtrident]

madteg - 18/12/10 at 04:42 PM

I have used the heater pipes works fine for me.

Moorron - 18/12/10 at 06:05 PM

u dont need to use the water jacket on the turbo. Its main job is to keep the turbo heat under control when you switch the engine off, so not allowing heat buildup degrading the oil thats sitting in its bearings. Its there for people who race up and stop and get out (so normal people in normal cars). Let the engine idle for 30 seconds before switching it off and it will be fine.

If you look at renault 5 GT Turbos, the phase one had no water cooling on the turbo but the Phase 2's did. Yet its the same turbo for both when replacing them meaning if its ok on the phase one without water the exact same unit 'doesnt' need water.

Might make it easier if your struggling with your piping.

beaver34 - 18/12/10 at 06:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Moorron
u dont need to use the water jacket on the turbo. Its main job is to keep the turbo heat under control when you switch the engine off, so not allowing heat buildup degrading the oil thats sitting in its bearings. Its there for people who race up and stop and get out (so normal people in normal cars). Let the engine idle for 30 seconds before switching it off and it will be fine.

If you look at renault 5 GT Turbos, the phase one had no water cooling on the turbo but the Phase 2's did. Yet its the same turbo for both when replacing them meaning if its ok on the phase one without water the exact same unit 'doesnt' need water.

Might make it easier if your struggling with your piping.


i see,

it takes about 3 mins to get it back in the garage anyway and the streets are full of speed bumps so i would nt be giving it any use for the last few miles anyway, ill see when i come to doing to pipe work what im going to do, as i want to fit a remote thermostat in my system too

Strontium Dog - 18/12/10 at 06:27 PM

The turbo on my car glows cherry without spirited driving and lights the bay up if it's been given any beans. Use the heater pipes and fit a turbo timer unless you want to sit in the car for a while. 30sec is not nearly enough run down time, you need to run the engine until the turbo has cooled or you'll coke up the oil feed pipes and then kill the bearings when the oil can't get through any more. On my car that is usually betwen 3 and 10 mins depending on the driving done and ambient temps. Do NOT turn the engine off as the oil supply will stop and even if you are pumping water around the turbo the oil will bake before the turbo has cooled. Oil is also a coolant remember! I am running 1.2bar on a Toyota CT20 turbo.

ashg - 18/12/10 at 06:27 PM

on my turbo one goes from the thermostat housing to the turbo and the other comes from the water pump to the turbo.

Strontium Dog - 18/12/10 at 06:34 PM

Another point to note is that off boost your egt's could still be around 600 deg. Oil won't like that much and on boost your egt's could easily be 900 deg. hotter than molten brass! A turbo will last for a long time if you take care of it. There is no alternative to a decent run down procedure

Strontium Dog - 18/12/10 at 06:36 PM

DP Ooops!

[Edited on 18/12/10 by Strontium Dog]

beaver34 - 18/12/10 at 10:26 PM

ok,

so can i run the water out of the engine to the turbo then to the rad as that the way my cooling runs past the turbo or does it want to be the water from the cooler side of the rad which would be better im sure but a nightmare to do

what re you thoughs on dump valves aswell? do i need one or not, as half the world seems to be at war about them

coyoteboy - 19/12/10 at 01:18 AM

The water jacket is NOT only to keep temps under control after shutdown at all, they're there to keep the bearing temps under control during spirited driving/highway miles too, and while one manufacturer may use it specifically for one task, you have to know exactly why your turbo is water cooled. The quantity of water in the jacket heats up within seconds and boils if shut down glowing, the thermosyphon effect helps a tad but check any users manual on a car with a water-jacketed turbo and it will still warn you to allow the tubby to cool after a run. The oil flow is not sufficient to cool a water and oil turbo in normal operation.

The exhaust and bearing housing of my turbo is almost translucent shortly after a long boosting or 15 minutes of motorway miles, considering after about 100 degrees your oil is starting to be damaged permanently, would you really want to risk it?

For the info of the OP, on my car the water feed is taken off the water pump outlet (heater inlet also) and fed back into the main elbow as it leaves the head on its way to the rad.

quote:
what re you thoughs on dump valves aswell? do i need one or not, as half the world seems to be at war about them


Almost all performance turbocharged cars (with a large turbo) I've seen have had bypass valves as standard - not dump valves but the same basic operation.

Questions would be:
Is it a large turbo?
Are you pushing it harder than it would be used in stock form, if so, how much harder?
Are you using a speed-density fueling system or a metered air system?
Do you want a noise or silence?


[Edited on 19/12/10 by coyoteboy]

westy turbo - 19/12/10 at 09:24 AM

took my water feed from my inlet manifold,to the turbo,and then to my header tank,all BB turbos must have the water feed connected as the oil feed they have,allows less oil than the thros turbos,blow valve should be used as if not bleed the air when realising the pedal goes back to the turbo bladed and breaking/stoping them with an abnormal way.

beaver34 - 19/12/10 at 10:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
The water jacket is NOT only to keep temps under control after shutdown at all, they're there to keep the bearing temps under control during spirited driving/highway miles too, and while one manufacturer may use it specifically for one task, you have to know exactly why your turbo is water cooled. The quantity of water in the jacket heats up within seconds and boils if shut down glowing, the thermosyphon effect helps a tad but check any users manual on a car with a water-jacketed turbo and it will still warn you to allow the tubby to cool after a run. The oil flow is not sufficient to cool a water and oil turbo in normal operation.

The exhaust and bearing housing of my turbo is almost translucent shortly after a long boosting or 15 minutes of motorway miles, considering after about 100 degrees your oil is starting to be damaged permanently, would you really want to risk it?

For the info of the OP, on my car the water feed is taken off the water pump outlet (heater inlet also) and fed back into the main elbow as it leaves the head on its way to the rad.

quote:
what re you thoughs on dump valves aswell? do i need one or not, as half the world seems to be at war about them


Almost all performance turbocharged cars (with a large turbo) I've seen have had bypass valves as standard - not dump valves but the same basic operation.

Questions would be:
Is it a large turbo?
Are you pushing it harder than it would be used in stock form, if so, how much harder?
Are you using a speed-density fueling system or a metered air system?
Do you want a noise or silence?


[Edited on 19/12/10 by coyoteboy]


thanks for that, my engine is not one that in turbo charged normally its a 1600 zetec se sigma , my water pump has no outlets on it just pump the water straight through the engine, could i take the feed at the rad exit then feed it back into the header tank? or feed it into the pipe out of the engine into the rad somehow,

as regards the dump valve im not a fan of loud things it will be runnign around 20psi i have seen the recirc ones but they seem to be for specific cars, ill just be running a map sensor it runs on omex 600

Strontium Dog - 20/12/10 at 01:05 AM

Out of interest, what have you done to the 1600 Zetec internally to support 20psi?

RK - 20/12/10 at 03:29 AM

I'm considering water injection to the intake. Looks easy at first glance, and very cheap if you go diy, using your existing windscreen spray bottle. Lower temps, and more power. What isn't to like?

beaver34 - 20/12/10 at 06:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
Out of interest, what have you done to the 1600 Zetec internally to support 20psi?


rods, pistons, worked crank

Strontium Dog - 20/12/10 at 07:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RK
I'm considering water injection to the intake. Looks easy at first glance, and very cheap if you go diy, using your existing windscreen spray bottle. Lower temps, and more power. What isn't to like?


Run 50% Methanol, it is much better at cooling than water alone, about 6 times IIRC. There are issues with WI. If you don't map for it, it will rob power. If you do map for it and the bottle runs out it's detonation city and bye bye ringlands!

You want to use an injection curve relative to TPS and boost for best effect and so need to be able to programme the WI. This can be done from some ecu's or by using dedicated programmable WI.

Strontium Dog - 20/12/10 at 08:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
Out of interest, what have you done to the 1600 Zetec internally to support 20psi?


rods, pistons, worked crank


That's good to hear! What compression ratio have you chosen? What turbo are you using and do you have a graph of it's efficency. You should be able to produce lots of power at 1.4bar with the right turbo but need to make sure that your not pushing in too much hot air. Intercooler is key to making safe power along with timing and fueling of course!

westy turbo - 20/12/10 at 10:12 PM

bear in mind that methanol,worns the valve seals and where ever passes and rubber is there,iam using for 6th year now dilluted water with no probs or missfires,dual nozzles

beaver34 - 20/12/10 at 10:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
Out of interest, what have you done to the 1600 Zetec internally to support 20psi?


rods, pistons, worked crank


That's good to hear! What compression ratio have you chosen? What turbo are you using and do you have a graph of it's efficency. You should be able to produce lots of power at 1.4bar with the right turbo but need to make sure that your not pushing in too much hot air. Intercooler is key to making safe power along with timing and fuelling of course!


its all in the hands of jon at shawspeed who has many many years working with top spec cars and engines, i understand the basics but the spec he decided on, as regards the cooler is a full custom unit to fit in the nose cone 80mm core and the most efficient i could get as space is tight as you will be aware, the turbo is a garrett gt2871r i chose the larger exhaust housing for it as i wanted to move the power high up the rev range as i believe it will be better in such a lightweight car, he is having a manifold made to suit and a inlet, we were talking earlier about the turbo position as im worried about heat and wanted to have it sort of on the side of the car in the airflow and to have a scoop around it, maybe like Duncan cowpers latest dax animal