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Using PCV ports in inlet for idle control (Zetec)
garybee - 29/5/11 at 07:31 PM

Can anyone see any issues with using the PCV ports in the inlet manifold (sandwich plate) for the idle control? I am using a Zetec with throttle bodies but would like to keep the idle control valve. I would make an airbox for the throttle bodies and connect one side of the idle control valve to that and the other to the (unused) PCV port on the sandwich plate.

Would appreciate any thoughts you may have on this.

[Edited on 29/5/11 by garybee]

big_wasa - 29/5/11 at 08:22 PM

Not a bad idea that.

I think you will have to try it and see if it will flow the volume. Let us know.

HowardB - 29/5/11 at 08:33 PM

very interested in this, I am adding TBs to my zetec soon

thanks

BaileyPerformance - 29/5/11 at 08:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by garybee
Can anyone see any issues with using the PCV ports in the inlet manifold (sandwich plate) for the idle control? I am using a Zetec with throttle bodies but would like to keep the idle control valve. I would make an airbox for the throttle bodies and connect one side of the idle control valve to that and the other to the (unused) PCV port on the sandwich plate.

Would appreciate any thoughts you may have on this.

[Edited on 29/5/11 by garybee]

Hi,

If your using Jenveys there is a kit you can buy that replaces the air bypass screws in each TB with a pipe, the 4 pipes go to a common chamber, then to a idle valve, you could use a small filter in the inlet of the idle valve.

garybee - 29/5/11 at 08:44 PM

Looks like I'm going to be the guinnea pig then :-D

I was scratching my head earlier wondering why people don't already do this and thought there might be something really obvious I hadn't considered. The port appears to have plenty of cross-sectional area so I doubt flow would be an issue.

garybee - 29/5/11 at 08:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by garybee
Can anyone see any issues with using the PCV ports in the inlet manifold (sandwich plate) for the idle control? I am using a Zetec with throttle bodies but would like to keep the idle control valve. I would make an airbox for the throttle bodies and connect one side of the idle control valve to that and the other to the (unused) PCV port on the sandwich plate.

Would appreciate any thoughts you may have on this.

[Edited on 29/5/11 by garybee]

Hi,

If your using Jenveys there is a kit you can buy that replaces the air bypass screws in each TB with a pipe, the 4 pipes go to a common chamber, then to a idle valve, you could use a small filter in the inlet of the idle valve.


That sounds like a sensible way of doing it. I don't have Jenveys sadly. Although with all the different setups that have been on my Zetec I could probably have just bought a set and saved a lot of time/money. Wouldn't have had as much fun fiddling though.

big_wasa - 29/5/11 at 08:55 PM

sound like my engine lol. Not been on the road and on its 3rd induction system

BaileyPerformance - 29/5/11 at 09:07 PM

The idle valve is not normally required when you are using throttle bodies, if the bodies are well balanced and fuelling/cold running it calibrated correctly than the engine should start from cold first time without/very little throttle. Not sure what ECU you are using but most have "cold advance" table, so you can raise basic timing when cold to raise engine idle, but i can see the logic of running an idle valve with TBs if your engine has big cams, race tuned engines can be a pain when cold!

garybee - 29/5/11 at 09:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
sound like my engine lol. Not been on the road and on its 3rd induction system


:-) That describes mine too actually. I really am going to finish it soon though. Nobody believes me any more though, think I've 'cried wolf' too many times.

garybee - 29/5/11 at 10:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The idle valve is not normally required when you are using throttle bodies, if the bodies are well balanced and fuelling/cold running it calibrated correctly than the engine should start from cold first time without/very little throttle. Not sure what ECU you are using but most have "cold advance" table, so you can raise basic timing when cold to raise engine idle, but i can see the logic of running an idle valve with TBs if your engine has big cams, race tuned engines can be a pain when cold!


I'm only intending to use the Escort EECIV, but want to keep my options open for bigger power in the future which is why I'm fitting ITBs.

[Edited on 29/5/11 by garybee]

BaileyPerformance - 29/5/11 at 10:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by garybee
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The idle valve is not normally required when you are using throttle bodies, if the bodies are well balanced and fuelling/cold running it calibrated correctly than the engine should start from cold first time without/very little throttle. Not sure what ECU you are using but most have "cold advance" table, so you can raise basic timing when cold to raise engine idle, but i can see the logic of running an idle valve with TBs if your engine has big cams, race tuned engines can be a pain when cold!


I'm only intending to use the Escort EECIV, but want to keep my options open for bigger power in the future which is why I'm fitting ITBs.

[Edited on 29/5/11 by garybee]


You mite struggle to use the Ford stock EEC system with throttle bodies, a far as i'm aware the EEC ECU is not simple to tune, there is something called EECTUNER from USA but this does not give you full control of all parameters, only the basics, if the donor car has a flow meter you mite get get it running if you pipe it in using a plenum on the TBs but the stock map in the EEC would be way out. I would go straight to aftermarket ECU if i was you, megasquirt been the most cost effective.

garybee - 29/5/11 at 10:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
You mite struggle to use the Ford stock EEC system with throttle bodies, a far as i'm aware the EEC ECU is not simple to tune, there is something called EECTUNER from USA but this does not give you full control of all parameters, only the basics, if the donor car has a flow meter you mite get get it running if you pipe it in using a plenum on the TBs but the stock map in the EEC would be way out. I would go straight to aftermarket ECU if i was you, megasquirt been the most cost effective.


Yep, airbox to airflow meter is exactly what I'm intending. I found a thread on another forum who did exactly that and got great results. I intentionally didn't bring that up at the start as the thread was bound to go this way and my original question would probably have gone unnoticed. I appreciate the input though, I will almost certainly end up going to an aftermarket ECU but reckon I can get what I need for now with the stock ECU.

big_wasa - 30/5/11 at 06:54 AM

eec ecu nice one

I am doing mine a little differant. Single Tb with eec-v. Upgrade will be a turbo and after market ecu.

The bike Tb's with eec-iv sounds like Will's 150bhp fiesta ?

will121 - 30/5/11 at 09:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by garybee
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
You mite struggle to use the Ford stock EEC system with throttle bodies, a far as i'm aware the EEC ECU is not simple to tune, there is something called EECTUNER from USA but this does not give you full control of all parameters, only the basics, if the donor car has a flow meter you mite get get it running if you pipe it in using a plenum on the TBs but the stock map in the EEC would be way out. I would go straight to aftermarket ECU if i was you, megasquirt been the most cost effective.


Yep, airbox to airflow meter is exactly what I'm intending. I found a thread on another forum who did exactly that and got great results. I intentionally didn't bring that up at the start as the thread was bound to go this way and my original question would probably have gone unnoticed. I appreciate the input though, I will almost certainly end up going to an aftermarket ECU but reckon I can get what I need for now with the stock ECU.


ive done simular but on a Fiesta, running a standard zetec throttle plate/injectors, GSXR600 throttle bodies running through a DIY fibreglass plenum and MAF using the standard ford 2 litre zetec ECU.
idle control on mine was just set by adjusting the throttle bodies tick over throtle stop as on the bike which allow small amount of air past butterflys so no need for separate ICV





coozer - 30/5/11 at 09:48 AM

GSXR TB's on mine with a cold start lever. Basically its like a choke that rotates a cam and raises the butterflys off the stops. Raises the idle to 1600rpm on cold start. But just a little tickle on the pedal does the same thing.

garybee - 30/5/11 at 11:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by will121
ive done simular but on a Fiesta, running a standard zetec throttle plate/injectors, GSXR600 throttle bodies running through a DIY fibreglass plenum and MAF using the standard ford 2 litre zetec ECU.
idle control on mine was just set by adjusting the throttle bodies tick over throtle stop as on the bike which allow small amount of air past butterflys so no need for separate ICV


Yours was the one I was referring to actually, thanks Will.

garybee - 30/5/11 at 11:08 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
GSXR TB's on mine with a cold start lever. Basically its like a choke that rotates a cam and raises the butterflys off the stops. Raises the idle to 1600rpm on cold start. But just a little tickle on the pedal does the same thing.


Interesting to see how other people get around the same problem. I take it you are also using the standard ECU?

BaileyPerformance - 30/5/11 at 11:15 AM

Are you seeing any power increase from this mod? i cant see how it would make any difference, the air flow restriction remains in place just like the stock Ford setup - MAF. Plus, more air needs more fuel, so the Ford map would be way out.

I can see this would help clearance problems, so fair play!

matt_gsxr - 30/5/11 at 11:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
GSXR TB's on mine with a cold start lever. Basically its like a choke that rotates a cam and raises the butterflys off the stops. Raises the idle to 1600rpm on cold start. But just a little tickle on the pedal does the same thing.


The gsxr600's had a external cable for this, which is what I use. The gsxr1000's operate the same cam but use the secondary throttle body motor for this. You can still connect a cable up, but it is more fiddly. (all TBI's are the standard k1-K3 ones).

will121 - 30/5/11 at 11:59 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Are you seeing any power increase from this mod? i cant see how it would make any difference, the air flow restriction remains in place just like the stock Ford setup - MAF. Plus, more air needs more fuel, so the Ford map would be way out.

I can see this would help clearance problems, so fair play!



it produced more peak power and revs but a loss in the mid range and torque, but for me as a track day car it was the increase in power/revs benefit as still running fiesta 1.6 gearbox on a 2litre and at my local track at snetterton was better on long straights.


i assume better air flow was achieved with increased area of the 4 throttle bodies compared to the single one and the MAF wasnt the restricting factor, think there is also within the standard Ford ECU an element of self learn/compensation as was still running the lamba sensor and assume it may amend mixture to match increased air flow

easy to see from before and after RR run below whether deemed a worth while gain or not, i done it to be different and also as a cheaper half way start to full replacement programable ECU etc, which is what ive now done and is best option if you can afford it

BaileyPerformance - 30/5/11 at 01:33 PM

fair play, you have made a small improvement, better than i thought!

Did the dyno operator comment of the fuelling? you may be able to gain some more power by raising the fuel pressure, they run 3.8bar stock, i would go to 4.5 and see what happens, the lambda will bring fuelling back under idle and part throttle. (the stock ECU goes open loop at full throttle anyway) Zetecs like fuel, even NA, the last one i did made 177BHP at 6500RPM at 12.5AFR on MS and jenvey 45s, the factory calibration is much leaner.