modern engine to replace old school Lump
Valtra - 12/10/11 at 10:01 PM
Hi
Due to loss of oil pressure on my beloved Fiat TC . It seems likely I have main bearing "issues" which could lead to Crank issues which
would consequently lead to engine out issues etc etc
If it turns out to be a drastic problem , I'm seriously considering replacing the engine with something more modern and potent . the good news is
that the glorious 5cyl Bravo/Marea/Coupe will bolt up to my fiat 131 gearbox with a bit of jigery pokery regarding the starter motor. My aim would be
to buy a complete car and strip absolutely every relevant part that makes the modern engine go. Loom, ECU, fuel system, throttle pedal , sensors .
and graft it to my old school engine bay.
this throws up several issues that I'm sure several people here will be familiar with
1 /Cat converter . My car is registered with a pre 90's engine and any replacement should only require basic emissions test also so I assume
I'm ok to simply discard this heavy item ?
2 /Many would no doubt go for throttle bodies and megasquirt / omex etc but if the standard injection gubbins can be made to fit and work and
continue their previous conversation with the ECU . there should be ample cheap power and reliability /economy are there any pitfalls I've not
thought of?
3/ mounting a fwd transverse engine up to a rwd gearbox . Will I need to do any mods to the flywheel /Spigot bearing etc etc.
4/ Fuel system for injection . My current system is an external Facet competition type pump , to filter regulator to twin 40's . Obviously
I'll need a return pipe to convert to Fuel injection , but would the current pump be ok ? or is it best to use the pump from the new doner.
5/ anything else to consider?
Thanks
Ian
owelly - 12/10/11 at 10:11 PM
I'm contemplating the exact same swap. There's nothing wrong with my Fiat TC but I like idea of the 4cyl (the 5cyl is too long) turbo. I
wouldn't change the engine details, apart from the engine number. You'll need a high pressure fuel pump and I think the Fiat Coupe Turbo has
it in the tank. I'd use the pumo and swirl pot from a Golf gti. I havn't got a donor car yet as they seem to have increased in value!
ali f27 - 12/10/11 at 10:23 PM
Hi Owelly I HAVE 1.6 TURBO lancia motor and box ecu wiring etc good engine was going to put it in mini but to many projects just looking for my money
back.
Cheers Ali
britishtrident - 13/10/11 at 07:07 AM
If using the original ECU I would do a lot of research on the immobiliser system before starting I have seen a couple FIATs sent to the breakers
because of imobilisers going belly up.
All 5 cylinders engines are the spawn of the devil !
MikeRJ - 13/10/11 at 07:32 AM
I love the 5 cylinder engine in my 20V Turbo Coupe; super smooth, powerful, surprisingly economic and a glorious sound. However, it's a very
heavy engine, just lifting the cylinder head is a struggle with one person and the iron block was designed for use in a diesel so weighs accordingly.
This is probably why the standard front tyre pressure is 39psi!
Definitely not an engine I would consider for a Locost anyway, but the older Lampredi derived 16v engine might be a better choice.
snapper - 13/10/11 at 07:47 AM
You can discard the cat, worth money at the metal yard, but will need a lambda boss in the exhaust.
Use the pump from the donor, a facet for carbs will deliver about 9 psi, fuel injection needs several bar of pressure.
b14wrc - 13/10/11 at 11:36 AM
Why are 5 cylinder's spawn of the devil British trident??
I have the Coupe 20vt and it does sound awesome, will power my locost along very well i hope. Comments on weight are correct though, i think it weighs
nearly 200kg.
I took the gear box off at the weekend and still can’t move the engine to get it on the engine stand. How heavy is the head? Anyone done any
mod's to this engine on here, would be keen to learn form experience, bit of a learning curve for me anyway and have all the time in the world to
do it.
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l603/b14wrc/483b4831.jpg
WRT weight - you can reduce this by emitting a few unneeded parts such as power steering. And with some tuning should be in the 250 -300bhp range
which will be pleasant.
Very interesting to learn that it was originally designed for diesel power.... should mean a strong block then.... 
more boost!
DH2 - 13/10/11 at 01:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by b14wrc
i think it weighs nearly 200kg
understeer... understeer... UNDERSTEER...
quote:
Originally posted by b14wrc
And with some tuning should be in the 250 -300bhp range which will be pleasant.
... oversteer... holy crap OVERSTEER!
b14wrc - 13/10/11 at 04:17 PM
Mid engined locost. So yes, tail happy.
sebastiaan - 13/10/11 at 05:33 PM
Why not go for an alfa 156 1.8 engine? Cheap as chips and the whole ecu end wiring is self contained on the inlet manifold. Just a few wires needed
for an easy 140 bhp. And 7200rpm as well....
Valtra - 13/10/11 at 05:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sebastiaan
Why not go for an alfa 156 1.8 engine? Cheap as chips and the whole ecu end wiring is self contained on the inlet manifold. Just a few wires needed
for an easy 140 bhp. And 7200rpm as well....
Will it bolt up to the 131 bellhousing?
[Edited on 13/10/11 by Valtra]
Valtra - 13/10/11 at 05:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I love the 5 cylinder engine in my 20V Turbo Coupe; super smooth, powerful, surprisingly economic and a glorious sound. However, it's a very
heavy engine, just lifting the cylinder head is a struggle with one person and the iron block was designed for use in a diesel so weighs accordingly.
This is probably why the standard front tyre pressure is 39psi!
Definitely not an engine I would consider for a Locost anyway, but the older Lampredi derived 16v engine might be a better choice.
disappointed to hear it is heavy but how heavy are we talking ? in relation to other common 7 engines ? for instance that fabled boat anchor the
pinto ?
as somebody has put later how dressed up is that weight ie does it include Turbo , intercooler Steering pump, Aircon pump. etc etc all of which I
don't need . Also are you saying the head is iron?
cheers
Ian
Valtra - 13/10/11 at 05:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
If using the original ECU I would do a lot of research on the immobiliser system before starting I have seen a couple FIATs sent to the breakers
because of imobilisers going belly up.
All 5 cylinders engines are the spawn of the devil !
Will do some research on the immobiliser issue. and I understand your comment about 5 cyl engines however as a youth the Quattro was a big influence
and listening to a grp B yowlling through the forrest at night is to know paradise . Now the VW VR5 lump now there is a crazy idea but it worked for
a while at least
Nickp - 13/10/11 at 06:26 PM
I've got a reground crank from a 131 (never been run) with all shells (+.10 IIRC) somewhere in the shed if you decide to give the old Twink a
freshen up mate. Many a good tune played on an old fiddle
Valtra - 13/10/11 at 07:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
I've got a reground crank from a 131 (never been run) with all shells (+.10 IIRC) somewhere in the shed if you decide to give the old Twink a
freshen up mate. Many a good tune played on an old fiddle
Ok Thanks is it a 1.6 1.8 or 2litre ? I'll bear it in mind , nothing is set in stone yet
Nickp - 13/10/11 at 07:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Valtra
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
I've got a reground crank from a 131 (never been run) with all shells (+.10 IIRC) somewhere in the shed if you decide to give the old Twink a
freshen up mate. Many a good tune played on an old fiddle
Ok Thanks is it a 1.6 1.8 or 2litre ? I'll bear it in mind , nothing is set in stone yet
2.0 mate. Bought as a complete recon'd unit to rebuild my Monte engine, but I just ended up using the block and pistons. It's sat ther doing
nowt so certainly won't break the bank
Valtra - 13/10/11 at 08:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by Valtra
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
I've got a reground crank from a 131 (never been run) with all shells (+.10 IIRC) somewhere in the shed if you decide to give the old Twink a
freshen up mate. Many a good tune played on an old fiddle
Ok Thanks is it a 1.6 1.8 or 2litre ? I'll bear it in mind , nothing is set in stone yet
2.0 mate. Bought as a complete recon'd unit to rebuild my Monte engine, but I just ended up using the block and pistons. It's sat ther doing
nowt so certainly won't break the bank
Ah well mine is a 1.6 so a 2.0 crank would upset the head and pistons every time they hit each other don't give it away for nothing a good 2.0
crank is a prized item if I remember correctly they are steel and good for huge power
Nickp - 13/10/11 at 08:09 PM
Just find a scabby 2.0 on ebay, and if it needs a crank give us a shout. My Monte makes a solid 150bhp and 140ft/lb of torque with just a DIY ported
head and twin DCNFs. Not bad for a 35yr old lump 
Nickp - 13/10/11 at 08:14 PM
Here you go-
2 LITRE FIAT 131 TWIN CAM MIRAFIORI SPORT ENGINE +BOX | eBay
You even get a spare 'box
Valtra - 13/10/11 at 08:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Here you go-
2 LITRE FIAT 131 TWIN CAM MIRAFIORI SPORT ENGINE +BOX | eBay
You even get a spare 'box
yes spotted that one yesterday ...you did say scabby didn't you looks rather time consuming that option
Nickp - 13/10/11 at 08:51 PM
You never know, might just need a scrub up and a head gasket. Might not like
Parts for a rebuild are best sourced from the US, even with the shipping and taxes.
Fill yer boots - http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index.php?main_page=page&id=6&chapter=1
[Edited on 13/10/11 by Nickp]
b14wrc - 13/10/11 at 09:10 PM
Hi, sorry to go back to the 20vt....
All in the photo is what I was basing my weight comments on.... Well heavy and this does not include a bag full of wire....
The head is alloy and the block is iron. I will take photos of the rebuild and post. If any one needs info just give me a shout, think there is
another guy on here with a lot of knowledge of the 5cylinder fiat.
I think the 5 cylinder is great and agree the Audi and VW engines are sweet.
Would go turbo.
owelly - 13/10/11 at 09:41 PM
The twink coming out of my car is excellent. Low mileage, four branch, good oil pressure etc, coming to an internet auction site soon.....
Valtra - 14/10/11 at 12:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by b14wrc
Hi, sorry to go back to the 20vt....
All in the photo is what I was basing my weight comments on.... Well heavy and this does not include a bag full of wire....
The head is alloy and the block is iron. I will take photos of the rebuild and post. If any one needs info just give me a shout, think there is
another guy on here with a lot of knowledge of the 5cylinder fiat.
I think the 5 cylinder is great and agree the Audi and VW engines are sweet.
Would go turbo.
Won't go turbo, too complicated, too much power, would need to seriously upgrade the brakes and gearbox and axle, as well as carbon fibre
undercrackers .
Can't see why it is especially heavy looking at your pictures , of course it will be heavier than a 4 cylinder and if it includes balancer shafts
and an iron block etc it will be heavier than a zetec se (my choice of 4 if starting from fresh now) and the head will be heavy because of all the
hardware that goes into a Twink . I wouldn't take any engine for a swim !
Valtra - 14/10/11 at 12:06 AM
By the way are there any engine mounting opportunities along the flanks?
Nickp - 14/10/11 at 05:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
The twink coming out of my car is excellent. Low mileage, four branch, good oil pressure etc, coming to an internet auction site soon.....
Sorted!! What's it in BTW mate?
[Edited on 14/10/11 by Nickp]
owelly - 14/10/11 at 05:44 AM
It's all good!!
Nickp - 14/10/11 at 05:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
It's all good!!
Bumfinger??
Valtra - 14/10/11 at 05:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
It's all good!!
Bumfinger??
Ah but which model of Bumfinger ? Mk 3 or 4?
Nickp - 14/10/11 at 06:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Valtra
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
It's all good!!
Bumfinger??
Ah but which model of Bumfinger ? Mk 3 or 4?
Or is it the Bumtwinker Special??
Valtra - 16/10/11 at 06:08 PM
Following a good "gander" over my engine yesterday I've come to the conclusion that it's better the devil you know and that a
rebuild using the experience gleaned since the original build some 15 years ago (though it was only struck up just over 3 years ago) will be the best
option : again looking over the engine I realised how many elegant solutions I found to literally build the car around the engine and then fit
ancillaries and attendant secondary items around it . Though I say so myself the installation is a work of art despite limited funds thrown at the
project or previous experience , and the moment that engine struck up for the first time was one of the best of my life . I may decide to massage the
specification a bit with certainly a few baffles in the sump and perhaps some slightly meatier cams to make better use of the Webbers . But on the
whole stick to the principal of a budget engine of real class.
Thanks for all the suggestions, very much appreciated and of all the options the Alfa TS 16v looked the best option but issues over engine mounts,
sump, inlet manifold clearance . plus worries over ecu compatibility and immobilisers etc meant that I would need a phase one engine or convert a
phase two to phase one electrics. That's not a path I would tread confidently
Ian
Valtra - 23/10/11 at 01:26 PM
Got a chance to check the oil pressure with a different gauge today and voilà 3 bar at idle and 5 bar at high revs when warmed up . "Hienz"
manual says 2.9 to 4.9 at 6000 revs . just gotta get my fueling sorted to stop the poping and banging at idle and I'm away .
Thanks all for your input
Ian
Nickp - 23/10/11 at 03:46 PM
Result!! Always worth getting a second opinion with old (or new) gauges