Although it would be lovely to have an unlimited budget which would let you build different cars for different situations, very few of us do so......... what engine (lets say realisticaly costing under £1500 to have up and running in a car) do you reckon would be the most competetive for the least amount of money in the most forms of weekend club type motorsport? I'm not talking about championship winning here btw just about being fast enough to be fun and not having to bumble around last in every event you enter!

I'm thinking maybe R1 or XE but can't decide between the two........

Any more ideas?

A Nissan CA18DET you can build an engine with forged pistons, metal head gasket, lightened and balanced bottom end, a decent T28 turbo etc...and be on your way to 300BHP for £1500.

An R1 will all the extra bits you might need bought from reputable suppliers should cost less that £1500 easily. You should get 160 BHP when dynojetted or power comandered on a good air filter and exhaust and will give 3.5s to 60 in a super-light-weight seven car or more like 4.5s in something more medium weight.

Don't know about the XE.

Surely it depends what class you want to race in?

Ahh no, thats the point! I want something that'll be able to go circuit racing one weekend, hillclimbing a few weeks after, sprinting the next month etc etc- I know it wont be excelent at any one thing but I haven't got the time or money to seriously do one championship and figured that variety is potentialy the spice of life

ZX12

Hi dave that deffinatly rules out a locost race engine then on a 1500 budget. I bet ns dev will be here in a minute and say vx and could well be right as it will be a bit easier to drive than a frantic bec is up the hills and narrow sprint tracks due to the torque available . But then again you do get the 6 speed box as standard on a bec and with 13'' rims gearing will not be to bad.

not that much help really as you probably allready know this .

cheers matt

ps lets see how long it takes nat to pop up and say vx is the way.

(edit) sorry dave miss read thought it was r1 or vx not xe

[Edited on 4/4/06 by procomp]

A VERY good question indeed.

I think you will need to be able to do a LOT of work yourself on any engine to be competitive for less than £1500.

Turbo Nissan is straight out of the window, nothing like enough power once you add the multiplication factor on, plus I guess you are talking sprint and hillclimb in which case you will need anti-lag to be anywhere at all.

Vauxhall XE, much as I like them, will not really be competitive on a £1500 budget, unless you are really canny about getting the bits together. The problem here is that there are a million and one 7's running vauxhall XE's of the 200hp ilk and you need something to get you past them, which invariably means steel rods.........which even being canny are going to be £400 minimum.



Are you talking about a car purely for motorsport and not driving it there and back too? If so then how about a tweaky air/oil cooled gsxr suzuki engine.

I know of a few grassers running them based on GSF1200 bandit cases and bottom ends. They respond well to diy porting etc, slide carbs are cheap, ign systems easy to come by and fairly cheap to remap, and with no cooling system as such they are SUPER light. 160hp is no big deal with these engines, and they are lighter than the later watercooled superbike engines, easier to get bits for and less fragile. They are ideally suited to short events like sprints and hillclimbs, and you can shave a lot of weight off the car by using one.........worth a think.

heh heh cross posted that with you matt, give the budget £2500 and I'd lean more to the vauxhall, but £1500 and you'll struggle! As you say as well you don't get a free gearbox with the vauxhall!

[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]

Well i got one thing nearly right only 3 minutes.I was wrong about his recomondation tho .
What about a 1800 zetec brand new in crate from ford 500 quid minor bits to complete and run it on megasquirt .

cheers matt

talking about being compeitive, how do the classes you are looking at work with regard to engine cc - could you perhaps get a zetec se 1.6 cheap out of a focus and run bike throttle bodies, megasquirt or emerald and possibly a set of cams s/hand if you can find some? this might be slower overall but more competitive ina specific engien size class (ie upto 1.6 or 1.7 as some places run/used to run) or perhaps the 4-age, but the zetec is probably cheaper to aquire and iirc is ally block? so lighter.

otherwise forthemoney i may well say bike engine as long as you can get the noise down without spending a lot on an exhaust!

Ned.

you can tell I am busy at the mo!

Think we both know that £1500 is the sort of budget that needs real ingenuity to be competitive on!!!

Here's me being miffed that I missed out on a Suzuki TL 1000 engine that went on ebay for £265 last night while I was making a cup of bloody tea! (arse that I am!!!) 130hp 2 cyl and nice and light (82 kg incl everything like cooling system etc apparently (thanks froggy!))

That's my ingenuity, use two of those buggers, still only 4 cyl and 2 litres but 260hp or so and lighter than a car engine and box, with a ridiculous torque curve and sequential gears, all for under a grand.......I can't get a gearbox for my vauxhall engine that will handle 260hp on that budget, let alone build the engine!

Helps that national autograss rules allow multiple engines!

Nah, I'm well aware that for £1500 you're not going to win anything

Has to be legaly road legal but I wouldn't drive it to events (it's potentialy long walk home from most motorsport venues isn't it!)

Zetec I had considered.....thought it was the SE they sold new for £500 though? (that's been a contender as well btw) if it's the 1800 as well it becomes more tempting!

*********LOOK OUT>>>>>>>AUTOGRASS PLUG*************

you can win in autograss with a car built on a total budget of £2100, cos I won my first full season having spent exactly that on the car, plus £600 to run it for the whole season including all costs (tow fuel, camping etc all included)

just another take on it.

Don't dismiss it as crude either, there are some seriously technical cars involved nowadays, see april's racecar engineering.

(PS it actually cost me £600 to build the car, the one in my avatar and archive, but I already had the engine and ems which cost me around £1500, so £2100 in total)

Another thing that has just crossed my mind while I am in autograss promo mode, is that the cars are unfeasibly quick considering the total non-allowance of anything remotely resembling an exotic material in the rule book.

All steel in the main chassis sections must be 2.5mm wall minimum, so T45 steel etc is pointless, no composites are allowed anywhere on the cars etc etc and yet they still make full blown rallycross supercars look rather slow around a track, as anybody who was at the NEC would have seen, and at various other events too, such as the blyton rallycross/autograss event showed, where the autograss cars reset the lap records!!!

[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]

[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]

Hi sorry should of said tho that it's the silver top ie formula ford- kit car one that is 500 quid . Not as light as the later 1600 se type but would probably allow easier entry it to the cicuit side of things depends on what championship really tho as sprint and hill climb have a class for just about anything .

matt

Maybe old mr champion would of been closer to the mark with build a grasser for £250 and race it . Sounds like good value for money to me as you get a good few runs at each event dont you .

matt

yep, get a few runs, normally get 5 as a minimum, so not much track time but then it's only a fiver to race and no pre entry is needed, just turn up.

It's not perfect by any means, but unbeatable in terms of cheap motorsport.

So........ we've worked out that they will be holding the winter olympics in hades before you're truly competitive with an engine that cost you £1500ish but we knew that already....... what we haven't resolved yet is what engine is going to be the least embarassing/most fun for £1500?

Autograssing hmmmmm, never considered that to be honest, I shall investigate

A little bit like locost racing really more time on the grass than the black stuff.
matt

what about mazda rotaries? what do they cost and what needs changing to install them in a 7? (assuming its a 7 you're fitting this engine to!)

Ned.

Indeed Matt

So in your role as chief autograss racing plugger Mr Dev, can you recomend any decent autograss related web sites suitable for those of us under employed at work today?

The best I can come up with on that budget (assuming the class structure allows bike engines directly competing with equivalent cc car engines) is to use a gsxr 1100 or gsf 1200 motor.

You should be able to find one ready modified for that sort of money, and they are as tough as old boots, in the grassers they sit on the rev limiter for most of their lives, covered in mud and never miss a beat.

The modern bike engines are more in demand so more pricey, heavier with their water cooling systems, don't seem to be as tough, as as the air/oil cooled gixxer 1100 is the most common drag bike engine in existence, there are loads of cheap tweaky bits available.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NS Dev
yep, get a few runs, normally get 5 as a minimum, so not much track time but then it's only a fiver to race and no pre entry is needed, just turn up.

It's not perfect by any means, but unbeatable in terms of cheap motorsport.

---

Websites:

Rather crappy but better put it at the top as is is the site of the governing body!!

NASA Site

Really good site of the national autograss magazine, photo galleries give you a good idea of the racing:

Autograss Review Mag

and my local club, only a very small club, heh heh just opened their new site and my car popped up!!!

M&L Autograss

there's a few for a kickoff.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon Ison

quote:

---

Originally posted by NS Dev
yep, get a few runs, normally get 5 as a minimum, so not much track time but then it's only a fiver to race and no pre entry is needed, just turn up.

It's not perfect by any means, but unbeatable in terms of cheap motorsport.

---

Sorry but Ive got too pipe up a little on that one, I cant ever recall getting 5 runs at an event unless it was a two day weekend jobbie, 5 laps maybe ? I would expect unless things have changed a lot since my day too get at best 10mins total track time at an event.
I would also add grasstracking is anything but cheap motorsport apart from the entry fees, the cars you mentioned above at the NEC for example? The cost of there engines alone would put me on track all season in the RGB series, Grasstracking is a great competitor sport but I think you need too paint the full story.

Dave, drop a bike engine in, there very reliable especially compared too tuned car engines and are perfect for motorsport applications, that we can thank grass trackers for, if you do the work yourself apart from maybe a prop adaptor you make all the bits you need yourself for not a lot of $$$$$.

whatever have fun.

---

I find it interesting that the neither of the two strongest advocates for the Vauxhall engine on here have even come close to recomending it..........(is it because of the sugested budget?) which I have to admit pushes me a bit further along the R1 route.

So I guess I'll have to forget about Autotesting then

Come on Matt, I'm on grasstrackers side here but personally I gave up grasstracking because I got fed up off 3 x 5 lap dashes over a two day event, yea at club events you will get more races in but be honest, do you get a full grid of class 9's at a club event ? If you naff the start up is it game over ? If you go wide on one corner is it game over ?
The 700 cars at one event is fine but from a competitors point of view it results in the above, 3 x 5 lap dashes over a full weekend, all I was doing was putting another point of view.........

With a bog standard bike engine and a race entry fee of around £200 I can have 2 x 15mins qualifying, 2 x 20- 30 minute races and not spend all of next week digging mud out the car, you can do a full season (car included) on tarmac and have change from a top spec grasser engine.

Same as last post, grasstracking is a great competitor sport but only for short periods, its a shame, I think it could do with a shake up, too many class's, class 4 & 6 for example, how many of those turn up at a M&L meeting with no national points at stake ?


Edit too add, how many class 9's scored points (regularly) in last years east mids championship, I won the east midlands open in a class nine some years back, but only because a diary cockup meant the fast boys where chasing points elsewhere.

[Edited on 4/4/06 by Jon Ison]

If it were for a road car (like mine is) I would not hesitate to recommend it as superior to a bike engine for that purpose, but competition, as you know only too well no doubt, needs a bit more thought.

You'll get a 200hp vauxhall engine for £1500 if you are very wise with your money, but every man and his dog has one, and you'll effectively be in a one make challenge against other vauxhall powered cars, which to my mind won't be fun, which I would imagine is why you are doing it!

Doing something a bit different to gain advantage has to be the way forward on that budget, and I have to agree that bike power seems the way forward, but I would speak to some bike tuners first, I think you may find benefit in using an older bike engine for the reasons I pointed out, especially if road use is not an issue.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon Ison
Come on Matt, I'm on grasstrackers side here but personally I gave up grasstracking because I got fed up off 3 x 5 lap dashes over a two day event, yea at club events you will get more races in but be honest, do you get a full grid of class 9's at a club event ? If you naff the start up is it game over ? If you go wide on one corner is it game over ?
The 700 cars at one event is fine but from a competitors point of view it results in the above, 3 x 5 lap dashes over a full weekend, all I was doing was putting another point of view.........

With a bog standard bike engine and a race entry fee of around £200 I can have 2 x 15mins qualifying, 2 x 20- 30 minute races and not spend all of next week digging mud out the car, you can do a full season (car included) on tarmac and have change from a top spec grasser engine.

Same as last post, grasstracking is a great competitor sport but only for short periods, its a shame, I think it could do with a shake up, too many class's, class 4 & 6 for example, how many of those turn up at a M&L meeting with no national points at stake ?


Edit too add, how many class 9's scored points (regularly) in last years east mids championship, I won the east midlands open in a class nine some years back, but only because a diary cockup meant the fast boys where chasing points elsewhere.

[Edited on 4/4/06 by Jon Ison]

---

Not knocking your results, i tried and failed where you succeeded, was trying like I said too give a broader picture, there's no fun scrutineering at 8am, qualifying at 9am then racing at 4pm either, was gonna say the grass ain't always greener, but you don't race on grass do you ???.......

Cut the class's down too segto style, be much better. oh shelf full off shiny things, got just shy off two hundred here, apart from 1 tarmac, 1 fishing, 2 golf, and a dozen or so banger racing they all came covered in grass.


Enjoy but peek over the rose tinted muddy specs of yours from time too time.

ok then, i'll recommend the vauxhall - you may get beaten by a more powerful one, but then if you go bike engine there'll always be someone there with a big money (read power!) hyabusa to beat you there as well.

if you want to be competitive as you put it then i guess we are trying to think outside the box to try and get the best bhp per pound!

what about a v6? if its possible to use the standard fuel/inlet system (unlikely i know) you might just have enough money to get the exhaust made for a 2.5/3ltr gm/ford/pug/alfa v6 and they should all make 200bhp+ with a load of torque and you choose wisely you could have an ally one that wouldn't be much heavier (ancillaries excluded) than a cast iron 4 pot (ie vauxhall/zetec)

Ned.

ps or get creative with individual bike throttle bodies and megasquirt! to keep the costs within budget

[Edited on 4/4/06 by ned]

bloody hell, got some catching up to do on the grassy shiny things then!!

Well done mate, thats not a bad collection!

Will try to look over me rosy specs now and again!

I do have other interests, looks like I am now spannering for a team racing a Radical SR3 in Britsports this year, but I am struggling for time in between other projects. Be nice to really get me teeth into one of these bikey devices and see what makes em tick though. Got a powertec 1500 busa in it at the mo, blew one up the other week but it went straight back to powertec so I never got the chance for a nosey inside it!

I'd like to try and get out to see some of the BEC and locost racing this year as well, will you be out later this year Jon?

some pre historic grass track piccys for you.....

heh heh, cool! Wonder what the cars will look like in 15-20 years time??

ps lots of grassy shiny things, nice one!

[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]

Whatever engine you use though Ned, odds on there will be someone with a more powerful, more expensive one that may or may not be playing to the rules as you read them - and if you've got the best engine someone will have better set up suspension/better gear ratios/has spent the previous week doing nothing but testing at that track or course That's just the way motorsport is! been there, done that, brought home the t shirt!

Perhaps I shouldn't have said competitive! NS Dev made a great point when he mentioned how widespread XEs are in 7s and how you'd probably end up in an unofficial one make class - which is something I'd not considered and don't realy want for the reasons I've just mentioned. I'd rather know why everyones p*ssing off into the middle distance ie their different engine, rather than endlessly wondering how people have 'modified' the same engine, which is what tends to happen in Locost racing just for example. Actualy that's a good reason not to use an R1 engine as well, b*ll*cks!

I'll be building up a crossflow in a minute if I'm not carefull (joke )

Gotta be the ZX12R.

2nd vote for one of them - but with a ZX12R you'll end up in the same class as the big money Hayabussa engines whatever you do and that's going to get a little tiresome quite quickly I would have thought!

Whatever engine choice you go for, it's all relative to driver ability.
I've seen weaker cars spank far more powerful class cars round the track because the driver has got more balls and ability.

quote:

---

Originally posted by D Beddows
2nd vote for one of them - but with a ZX12R you'll end up in the same class as the big money Hayabussa engines whatever you do and that's going to get a little tiresome quite quickly I would have thought!

---

a second vote for the ability bit. I see a lot of supoosedly inferior cars doing a lot of winning due to consistent, tidy and extremely skillful driving.

(sadly never mine!!!)

The joy of winning on a low budget is never to be underestimated!!!

The shame of running at the back on a big budget is a horrible feeling that fortunately few or none of us on here have to worry about!!

PS meant to say earlier that Ned's mazda rotary idea "could" be a good one depending on how the rule makers feel about how many cc's it is!!!

Still tricky on that budget. modifying them is all about knowledge of how to port them but the seal kits to keep them together at high revs are NOT cheap!

If its bang for buck then I would second the Alfa V6.

Paid £40 for an entire car and the engine is sweet, good oil pressure, free revving, all alloy, 130kgs, 190bhp, 190lbs torque. and that just the 12v

No carbs to worry about or messing to do, just clean it up and fit it in.


[img][/img]

That alfa looks the biz

of course you could EAAASSSILLY do that with a volvo engine and box !!

2.3 + RWD gearbox 190hp 200 ft lbs of torque - the whole car for about £350 on ebay . chip , 3 inch exhaust , upgrade turbo if you want (about 250 hp) at this level and no headgasket problems on 16-18 psi .

only downside is intercooler piping and associated heat problems .

now ive got mine over to RHSC work might start in earnest soon !!!!

in fact an early 740 turbo for about £150 - pre 90 (no cat) will leave loads of capital for plumbing and intercooler and t go to 250 hp , on pretty std everything .

my 2p worth

What about:

A 2.0 duratec from a rear end crashed mondeo...£800

A type 9 bellhousing...£350

Throttle bodies off ebay, or bike bodies....£200

Megasquirt....£150

Hey presto 200bhp for £1500!! Lighter than a vauxhall (90kg) but would pack a powerful punch at events.

See here for cheap 233bhp engine

[Edited on 4/4/06 by Tim 45]

As Jon mentioned, the beauty with the RGB is that the bike engines have to be standard, so you can literally raid the scrappy on a Friday and be competitive (power wise at least) on a Saturday. Most if not all the car based race series I can think of allow a degree of modification which will always severely limit your competitiveness on your £1500 budget.

As others have said, a ZX12 for £1500 would be a competitive class A engine, a £1k R1 engine in Class B or a £700 blade for class C, all straight out the box within a couple of bhp of the big spenders who insist on blueprinting their engines to get the very most out of the regs.

Going for the oddball engine has its merits, but a lot of the time they don't fit in within the regs, or if they did and gave an advantage, everyone would be using them

Chris

[Edited on 4/4/06 by ChrisGamlin]

spot on chris, and what a trackday car, if you want too overtake 99.9% of cars on track do a track day in a BEC.