In another thread I was fitting a new water pump - I have filled up with plain water and let the engine run for a few minutes. The water pump
doesn't leak so that looks good.
However, as the temp gauge measures the water temp how do I know if the water is reaching all parts of the engine (the bottom half of the engine
seemed to get hot quite quick)?
If I have an airlock how can I tell and if needs be get rid of it?
The new water pump has the viscous fan outlet on it, which I have a blocker-pipe for. I left this off while filling until water came out and then I
blocked it off again. When the engine was running water was squirting back into the expansion tank through the top pipe - is this right?
Squeezing the top rad pipe pushed some water into the expansion tank but the pipe itself felt like it had more air than water in it
(resistance-wise).
Any help much appreciated as I am hoping to get back on the road this evening.
[Edited on 6/6/06 by Just]
And the water is going from the engine to the bottle then how can you have an airlock in the engine??
sow seems good to me,
when the thermostaat begins to openup, the radiator will be added to the circuit sow make sure you add water enough to the installation.
also wy do you add water and not antifreeze??
do you add destilled?
Regards,
Tks
Just water for now to test for leaks around new pump. Will go and drain and fill properly then if water going in an out means no airlock.
if its a tiger rad theres a bleed screw on the rad top right corner
Not sure if it is a Tiger rad, but can't see a bleed screw.
I have filled it up with distilled and anti-freeze now and have ran the engine for a few minutes twice. The first time it went down a small amount so
i topped it up. The second time it was fine until after about 2 minutes when the level started to go up and then went up quite rapidly causing the
tank to overflow.
On both occassions steam was coming out of the expansion tank quite soon after starting the engine. The rad was getting hotter at the bottom than the
top, but the heat was gradually going up.
Am I doing something wrong or is the steam and overflowing normal? I have finished for the night now, so tomorrow should I top it up again (if it
goes down) and then run it again?
Having let it cool down again it seems the level has dropped a little below where I topped it up to before the last engine run.
[Edited on 5/6/06 by Just]
Something VERY odd if the rad is getting hotter at the bottom, the hot water enters at the top and after filtering down through the core exits the bottom cooler. The other odd thing is that water should not be flowing back to the header tank, untill the thermostat opens, something very, very weird. I think I would crack the top connection on the rad, just to make sure you have water up there, this would also clear any air lock in the top of the rad. atb Chippy
Yeah sounds like backpressure.
My advice - remove rad cap, remove header cap - fill rad manually until @ top.
Replace cap - add some water to header tank - start the car - it should drag the water from the header round the system.
Good luck
Ok thanks guys, I don't have a rad cap, but can take the hose off the top of the block and fill the rad that way, didn't feel like there was any water in the top rad pipe.
You should have a header tank with a rad cap on, and this should be the highest part of the system. If not, you're building in problems
unnecessarily.
Some of the cars I deal with have water returns from the back of the heads to the top tank as well. This gives more even cooling and prevents any air
locks in the engine end.
With the header tank at the top of the system, all you then need is a small tube from the top of the rad to the header, and this will deal with any
air/vapour problems and be self bleeding.
Cheers,
Syd.
Yep, to echo what syd said, you should have small hose from any high points in the system (usually thermostat housing, top of rad etc) back to the
header tank to make the system bleed its own air out.
Do all this first, if you still have probs come back on again as there is another less fortunate possibility if you got it really hot when you drove
it very low on water!
Thanks guys, the header tank is higher than everything else, although the bottom pipe would be lower than the top of the rad, but all the pipes slope
down from the header tank.
The pipes in my system are;
Pipe A is the one squirting water into the header tank and runs between the block and the header tank
Pipe B is carrying the water out of the bottom of the header tank to the bottom of the rad
Pipe C carrys water between the top of the rad an the block (direction unknown)
Pipe D carrys water between the water pump and the rad (direction unknown)
Water is squirting from Pipe D into the tank - I guess this is wrong then?
I don't think I got the engine really hot before just doing 60 up the motorway - no heroics and there was still quite a bit of water in the
engine/system when I took it apart to change the pump.
Also how will I know when there isn't an airlock - is it just the fact that all pipes and the whole of the rad will get warm?
Finally, does the temperature gauge on the dash measure from the sensor on top of the rad? This might explain steam at 50 degrees.
[Edited on 6/6/06 by Just]
[Edited on 7/6/06 by Just]
Still in need of some thoughts here. I took off the hose between the top of the rad and the engine. Water came out of the rad and out of the engine
end so I don't think there was an airlock in that pipe (although why it is so wide I don't know).
Have checked and double checked and there is no bleed screw on either the rad or stat and the stat looks well fixed in.
Having ran the engine again to get it all warm water is still coming through the pipe from the top of the engine into the top of the header tank. I
was told by a work colleague that he has seen this type of arrangement on an engine before?
So, with everything warmed up, the pipe from the bottom of the header tank to the bottom of the rad stayed cold throughout, the pipe from the bottom
of the rad to the water pump warmed up, the pipe from the top of the rad to the engine warmed up and the pipe from the engine back to the header tank
warmed up too. This would lead me to believe there isn't an airlock?
The rad itself heated up at the bottom first but quickly heated to the top as well. The bottom of the rad was a fair bit hotter than the top when I
stopped the engine with the top left being quite a bit colder than the top right.
The water coming into the header tank was very hot at the end (steam again) and putting on the cap to see if pressurisation would do anything
didn't.
I am confused now as to whether I have a problem or not - the only odd things remaining are the water coming into the tank (which could be normal) and
the rad heating up at the bottom.
Any further help would be much appreciated as I am running out of ideas.
The water going from the engine to the
header tank is perfect! it eliminates air bubles etc. etc..
also i guess the level isn't growing in th ebottle sow water is also pumped out of that bottle..
its just tje small (when cold) circuit!!
seen for example on a not to old Astra 1.9Diesel
When hot, the thermostat will open up
and then water is taken from the rad and added to the rad, its just that simple!!
if your bottle is the highest on all of the things and it has water then your engine has it to!!
if it then makes circuit using the bottle then there is no problem!
Wy not take some pics!
(if needed with phone)
or draw us up your situation in PAINT
(save as jpg)
Tks
I think a pic of your system would come in handy. It sounds as if everyone is getting confused with what you mean. If poss a schematic of the system would be useful to, ie which pipe goes where and so on.
Ok, I'll go and get some pics now and get them up with a clear-ish description.
Meantime, if the temp gauge stays below 80 deg does it matter whether water is circling properly? I am assuming that the temp sensor on the block is
reading the actual temp of the engine and as long as I keep it below 80 deg I can safely keep it running no matter what issues are occurring with the
water works?
Depends. If the water around the engine is flowing and is at 80 C then that's fine. However, if a pipe is placed wrong, that could be the only water flowing, ie the other end of the engine could be at 100+C, which could start trouble.
Apologies if the photos above are a bit big, but I think they just about capture it all.
From the top;
Pipe A is the one squirting water into the header tank and runs between the block and the header tank
Pipe B is carrying the water out of the bottom of the header tank to the bottom of the rad
Pipe C carrys water between the top of the rad an the block (direction unknown)
Pipe D carrys water between the water pump and the rad (direction unknown)
The only pipe that doesn't get hot as quick as the rest is pipe B.
Having ran the engine twice again tonight and getting up as high as 85 deg, with the tank held higher than anything else, we got two lots of over
flow, but crucially some spitting and weezing from Pipe A along with the usual water flow and a drop in level (although slight). Also the water
turned from clean pink to a dirtier pink/brown once the gauge hit about 80 deg.
And a schematic;
I should add that the pipes etc have all gone back on the way they were and the previous owner ran it for 1350 miles (I imagine without issue).
I have also tested for pressure in pipe C when turning the engine on cold and there was no pressurisation, so I am confident there is no damage from
the original drive with a dodgy water pump seal.
Looks fine to me,
I may have missed it but I can't see a pipe from the head(between the carbs) and anywhere. Is this blocked off? If so it could be your
problem.
BTW the Tiger rad doesn't come with the bleed screw but a rad repair shop should be able to put one in quite cheaply.
I also used to have problems bleeding the air from my Cat but used to lift the header off the bracket to get it as high as possible when filling.
[Edited on 7/6/06 by Schrodinger]
There is a pipe between the carbs from the engine into a little 'flask' like thing - is this it?
I see in the Tiger manual even they recommend that a bleed screw is put into the rad, but as it is a pressurised system I am wary. My main issue is
knowing whether I have an airlock or not - did you have water steadily flowing through the top pipe 'A' into your header tank?
I can make the bottom of the header the highest part of the system by removing from the brackets, but where the bottom pipe (b) goes down to the rad
it goes under the carbs, so limits how high I can currently get the tank up.
[Edited on 7/6/06 by Just]
is the water level,
it should be the highest in the tank, that will asure you that there is a pressure on everything below it...
the bleed screw will help you faster.
also when the engine will get hot and a bodgy road will help you allot.
Tks
quote:
Originally posted by Just
There is a pipe between the carbs from the engine into a little 'flask' like thing - is this it?
Thanks David, with the pipe names it makes it so much easier - the thermostat opens at 88 deg then - drat, probably got within about 3degs of that
last night!. So if I understand correctly the rad below 88 degs does not 'flow' water around it's whole height?
Is a possible solution to open the rad stat by shorting it to allow water all around the rad and hope the air works up to the highest part (tank held
up) again?
Would the rad get hot towards the top if the stat hadn't opened? We noticed that the water in the header tank went brown quite quickly at one
point suggesting that the water had gotten to a part of the system it hadn't previously (when the engine got as warm as we had had it).
It may open earlier than that, but the std stat opens at 88deg. When the stat opens the top hose and rad will get hot pretty quickly.
If you dont have a bleed in the top of the rad you could try disconnecting the top rad hose while refilling, that should help a bit.
I need to think about how to plumb mine up. But shall start another thread for that!
David
[Edited on 7/6/06 by flak monkey]
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
The large pipe from the thermostat housing allows water to flow from the head to the rad when the thermostat opens at about 88deg.
quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger
I also used to have problems bleeding the air from my Cat but used to lift the header off the bracket to get it as high as possible when filling.
Mhh ok
then i would disconnect the hose from the rado to the pump..
fille using ht ebottle this hose the maximum,
then with a fast move put on the hose on the thermostaat then you shoudl have quet some water in it and not many air..
Tks
anyway when thermost stat opens i think that air would escpay true the housing to the bottle
quote:
Originally posted by Just
Is the thermostat that opens the little electronic stat in the top of the rad or the big one with the pipes into it on the block?
quote:
Originally posted by Just
quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger
I also used to have problems bleeding the air from my Cat but used to lift the header off the bracket to get it as high as possible when filling.
Schrodinger, did your Cat flow water back into the tank in normal operation? How did you know if you had air in there and how did you know if it had gone?
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkeyThe large hose from the bottom of the rad to the water pump is the water return to the block.
When you fill the header tank the water is going down pipe B, filling the rad, then the engine via pipe D. Problem is, air cant get out of the rad as the thermostat will be closed, meaning pipe C is effectively blocked off. Pipe A will let air out of the engine as its the other side of the thermostat.
David
Rad should get hot from the top as thats where the thermostat allows the hot water into the rad. The pump then draws the cooler water out of the
bottom of the rad.
David
Ah ok, so until I get the rad heating from the top down I have issues?
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Yep, to echo what syd said, you should have small hose from any high points in the system (usually thermostat housing, top of rad etc) back to the header tank to make the system bleed its own air out.
Do all this first, if you still have probs come back on again as there is another less fortunate possibility if you got it really hot when you drove it very low on water!
Look how he connected the stuff!!
he have the bottle connected to lower rad position..
and the lower rad is pump input!
sow its normal that the rad heats up because thats where the water is sucked from!
If you don't want this you have to options.
Block of the smaller rad outlet.
and put a T piece in the big pump input hose to the engine..
connect to that the bottle.
Then your rad won't heat up simply because there is no water circuit in it!
JUST let we put it like this:
You have the situation pretty normal.
the only thing i would mod is the T piece
(sow your rad cant cool down the engine)
and i would add a bleed screw in the rad (on top of it) or make us a picture sow we can see its shape..
Tks
Ok, so I took the pipe C off at the rad and water poured from the top of the rad. I took it off at the thermostat housing end and water poured from the engine. Could I still have air in the rad?
Ok, one more thought - if I start it and get it up to 80 or so and then short the fan, if I see a drop in temp (or even a maintained level no higher) would this prove that the system is totally ok or could there still be a risk of air even if this is true?
Near the carbs there was a hose right?
open it while engine is running,
if you get the fullhose filled with water coming out then short it again..
then you are sure all air is out.
in fact the same for the other closed hose
also think about the T piece
because when you have cold engine and are driveing it would take engine more time to warmup and thats exactly what you donīt want.
Sow TIG up a T piece
Cheers
Thanks, I don't think I need a T-piece as I am not fussed about warm up I just need to know if I have air in there or whether I am good to go
driving?
The pipe on the side is more than likely the PCV I think.
Apologies for my continued badgering, but I think I am progressing.
Before starting tonight, I checked the level and woah! it had dropped a lot. So, topped up and ran it again. This time the rad warmed up at the top
much quicker, only just behind the bottom really.
I ran it until the engine got to about 70 degs then shorted the thermostat for the fan. The fan came on and was able to hold the 70 degs for few
minutes.
Eventually the water came over the top of the header again but not with such 'bubbliness' as usual just a smooth rise. I switched off (as I
always do when it over flows) and it stopped overflowing almost instantly this time (sometimes it carries on flowing over for a bit).
So, suspecting that this may just be natural rising due to no cap on, I put the cap on and started again. This time the engine spluttered to a halt
after about a minute, but I suspect (hope) that this is due to a dead battery as I have started and ran the engine 8-10 times with no charging this
week.
So, does it sound like I am heading in the right direction? My next plan is to check the level tomorrow when it has cooled and either way, lift the
tank up again while running it to see if it overflows, then let it cool, top it up and repeat until I can't get it to go lower. It would appear
that I haven't been getting the air out because the tank wasn't high enough.
By the sound of it your last post gave us a clue. You have put the fan belt on haven't you?
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
By the sound of it your last post gave us a clue. You have put the fan belt on haven't you?
yeah worth checking all the basics with me, but no the fanbelt is on, but the alternator doesn't charge at idle (the light stays on, on the
dash). I had expected it to run out of juice in the end.
Sounds like your alternators on the way out too then...
Wasn't sure if the pictures were before or after . For future reference if you drain the cooling system it would be worth taking off the hose from the thermostat housing and checking that outlet isn't blocked , common if engine hasn't been used with antifreeze . Also with the pipe off the cooling system will self bleed easier .
Thanks Rustynuts, will do.
After three hours on the batt charger the engine still won't start - should I charge it for longer even if it says it's full?