Hi Guys,

My XFLow locost has been on the road a week, when the accelerator cable stuck "open" and blew the head gasket, and bent an exh valve.

I have put it all back together, but have one problem left - The engine is only running on two cylinders (3&4). Those two are as sweet as nuts. The other two are receiving petrol in via the webers but not igniting.

You can take the lead off the plug and there is no discernable difference. You can also cover up the weber on that side, again with no difference.

Head is ok. Cleaned it and all seems ok. Back together with a new valve, head gasket and so on. The problem is not to do with my new valve - its on the other side of the engine.

We've checked the following:

Spark plugs
Leads (working and in right sequence)
Weber seals
tappets (three times)

Bit perplexed. Any ideas that i can try tomorrow?

Cheers,

Mark

Are you sure the linkage between the carbs are OK. 1&2 not working, 3&4 working then the carbs would be most likely.
If it was ignition, then 1&4 and 2&3 would pair the fault !!

are all the valves moving "up and down" ?
and i know you have checked the leads
but they are on in the right order and the plugs sparking?
as you say that there is no differance connected or not

A further suggestion... have you made sure the ditributor was fitted correctly.... is it firing in correct sequence? Perhaps 180 degrees out..

Gizmo - We were thinking it was one of the carbs, but nothing "should" have changed since i took them off to get at the head.

I will take them off again tonight, to make sure nothing obvious. They are squirting petrol nicely though? Can the carb be damaged with a backfire going through them?

Steve - All the valves are moving up and down, as we set the tappets by bringing each valve to the bottom, then guaging the opposite valve (9 rule). Any alarm bells on this method?

Also, Leads on in right order and plugs sparking nicely (they go in the right order 1243 anyway), but i'll have another look tonight.

Hornet - Dizzy is on the same way round (side exit type cap, so easy to check).

Has any of this extra info rung any more bells, coz unless we get it sorted, i can see this costing me a lot more than pride!

Thanks so far!

Mark

Soz m8.... exit on cap has nothing to do with it, when you engaged rotor into engine, you could still be out 180. You must ensure its set to fire cylinder 1 when its at TDC.
Take spark plug out and turn engine to TDC for cylider 1, take dizzy cap of and make sure rotor is at position 1.
If ok.. then thats eliminated. Best o luck

another suggestion is have you checked for compression on those 2 cylinders? If the head gasket blew then its possible the cylinder head could be warped. Did it get hot etc? If you don't have a compression tester then just try taking the spark plugs out, put your hand / thumb over the holes to seal them and turn the engine over. There should be roughly equal compression on 3&4 as there is on 1&2. Another reason for low compression could be buggered rings or valves not sealing properly??

Right, another night on the engine - no nearer.

I printed all the suggestions off at work, and went through each one!

Swapped webers over, problem didn't move, but eliminated a nagging doubt.

thanks Hornet for the abc on dizzy cap (honestly just what i needed - not a mechanic - if you haven't guessed!). Did as you said - timing is right though.

Stuck fingers in plug holes - seem the same, but tomorrow, i will get meself a tester and do it a bit more scientifically, and will strip the head (feck it) and check each valve again. If this doesn't work when i get it back together i will be well naffed off.

Can overtightening the head bolts (i have got a torq wrench however) cause this problem? I think i will get someone to look at the straightness of the head some more, too.

Cheers for your replies so far!

Mark

mmmm, I'm wondering how only one valve got bent - with crossflows if you over rev them valve bounce is the first thing that tends to happen (especialy with standard old? valve springs) and then you can write valves off rather quickly especialy if the block has been decked or if the cam timing is wrong. I take it there were no marks at all on the top of pistons 1&2?

Even so my bet is you've bent valves on cylinders one and two and therefore don't have enough compression to ignite the mixture - but then you shouldn't realy have been able to blow a head gasket just from over reving the engine for a few seconds (?) either so......... doubt it's rings as you probably would have noticed score lines in the bores as it would have to have been a fairly sudden dramatic failure, as Gizmo said it's very unlikely to be ignition and apart from that with a crossflow there is very little else it could be if it worked before, the valves and pistons still both go up and down and the plugs and leads all work

Good luck

[Edited on 28/5/03 by D Beddows]

If you are not mechanical minded..... I still have another point to ask.... when you checked cylinder 1 was at TDC and rotor was set to fire...... are you sure cylinder 1 was on compression stroke and not exhaust stroke? (Please ignore this if I am being too basic) FYI a 4-stroke has the following.. induction... compression.. combustion.. and exhaust strokes ,so you have to be sure when checking for firing that it is on compression stroke...
PS How is the engine starting? I would have thought it would be very difficult to start a x-flow on only 2 cyliders.... especially the ones that you say are ok?

Hope you get it going... you will be at frustration stage no doubt ! :mad

That's a good point actualy....it's not too difficult to start a 4 cylinder engine with points type ignition with only three cylinders firing but if 2 are out it's quite a feat!!!

If the timing was 180 degrees out the engine wouldn't start at all and would backfire through the carbs so that must be near enough. We're assuming it's points ignition or a basic electrical equivalent by the way?

similar, but not....
once did a head gasket on a metro and put the plugs leads back on wrong it started and ran, though wouldn't rev and kept backfiring.

probably not a great deal of help, sorry...

Ned.

Hello,

Mrs H here,

The hubby has just sent me in to type out these results from the comprssion test:

4 = 150
3 = 145
2 = 110 ish
1 = 150

He says he's going to regrind the valves (especially in "2".

Theres nothing obviously wrong.

Any new ideas would be gratefully appreciated, he says.

And also does any one know what the compression should read from a 1660 X/flow.

Thanks everyone.

Mrs H (and Mark)

From them results id say a valve on no 2 was slightly bent.. Which i doubt a re grind would solve.. Aslong as the compressions are roughly the same on each bore the values dont really matter too much..

After the compression test, and a can of lager, the engine now appears to work on all cyls?!?

I'm not one to believe that engines and the like can sort themselves out, but perhaps it cleared its throat or something?

The carbs need settign up, but they did before this whole episode started.

I am sure that i need to take the valves out again, but i think i will run it for a week or so, and see howe it is.

What do others think of this idea, and can engines mend themselves. We have done nothign apart form the compr. test on the engine tonight, then started her up...

Whatever the outcome, i really appreciate the replies and u2u's. This is what makes this forum so excellent. Cheers. Pints on me!!

All the best,

Mark.

Pint of coke for me mate, I'm driving....

I know I've contributed absolutely nothing of help to this thread, but I still thought I'd take up your kind offer....

Are you sure it was lager.... maybe it was Red Bull and you spilled some on the engine..

Nice one.. glad its going.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark H
Steve - All the valves are moving up and down, as we set the tappets by bringing each valve to the bottom, then guaging the opposite valve (9 rule). Any alarm bells on this method?

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Alright Mark, glad 2 hear the problems sorted!! Must be a relief!

Its possible there was a bit of crap stuck between the valve & its seat - now dislodged!?!?

Anyway...who cares - congrats mate!!

p.s. What's the secret of getting the other half 2 help out????

Latas, DS

quote:

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Yes, bells are ringing furiously. I think the crossflow has the same firing order as the Valencia engine (1243) which is different to just about every other 4 cylinder engine I have ever worked on (1342).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by steve26

p.s. What's the secret of getting the other half 2 help out????

Latas, DS

---

Hello again,

Mrs H here,

The only reason I help Mark out is so I can appease my guilt when I'm out driving the beast on days like this whilst he's at work.

Mwa ha hah hah hah haaaaaagh!

Rock on Mrs H!!

hurrah!!! glad I was wrong mate

Just to leave this topic with one thing... the Haynes Manual way of checking valve clearences is crap as you have to get two valves into the right position rather than one (and it's much harder to remember than it has to be) - instead - no.1 valve fully open check 8, 2 open check 7 etc until you get to 4 open check 5 then it's 8 open check 1, 7 open check 2 - ie do it the other way round - very hard to forget and much harder to get wrong.......then all you have remember is 25 inlet and 55 exhaust on your metric feeler gauges and you can throw the manual away

lol

Dave

quote:

---

Originally posted by D Beddows
Just to leave this topic with one thing... the Haynes Manual way of checking valve clearences is crap as you have to get two valves into the right position rather than one (and it's much harder to remember than it has to be) - instead - no.1 valve fully open check 8, 2 open check 7 etc until you get to 4 open check 5 then it's 8 open check 1, 7 open check 2 - ie do it the other way round - very hard to forget and much harder to get wrong.......then all you have remember is 25 inlet and 55 exhaust on your metric feeler gauges and you can throw the manual away
Dave

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not sure if you have overlooked the pushrods here.ive seen bent valves and bent pushrods, if you take it apart again give them a good check.

my 2pence worth!

john

locost online,

I did overlook pushrods as it happens! The pushrod on no. 8 valve is bent (the side of the shaft is actually rubbing inside the head), which is the same as the bent exh. valve.

I tried to order a replacement today from Burtons, and they can't get any!!

Do you need 1300 or 1600 push rods

as i do have a 1300 set

or the breakers yard

steve

Have you tried Vulcan engineering.

http://www.vulcanengines.com

[Edited on 3/6/03 by bob]

mmmmm MikeRJ - regarding the rule of 9 not working on a x_flow - I had to think about this for half an hour or so just to be sure but (just for a laugh, and be as technical as you like) I'd like you to explain exactly why it doesn't work on a x_flow.......

Hi D Beddows
Mike RJ is correct in what he says the rule of nine will not work on a cross flow motor with firing order 1243 it only works on four cylinder motors firing 1342 with siameized ports inlet and exhaust on same side. what you need is rule of five.
start on inlet valves only when number one is fully open set number four when number two is fully open set number three and so on. when completed do the same procedure on the exhaust valves. cheers davef.

I've u2u'd you mate, re rule of 5. Looks promising!

Mark

I thought you could only count to 3 though Mark mate?

Hippy - That, of course, could be my problem! Cheers for the input!!

Got to the bottom of the problem. And not great news.

The cam follower must have exploded on impact, coz i found the bottom of the follower in the sump!

OF course, the next question is how to get the rest of it out. I may start a new topic, but you are more than welcome to reply here until i can get some photos.

Cheers,

Mark

i've got a ford crossflow 1600, just need to know cylinder 1, at the gearbox or the front of the car??

cylinder one is from my experience always at the front of the engine (drivebelt end, not gearbox end)

Ned.

Defo agree..... cylinder 1 on x-flow, Belt end!..

disagee

no 1 front of engine timing chain end not belt end

just to be correct

cool, i try'd starting it up last night - no success , but i noticed the starter motor wasnt doing to well, it start to slow down. So i took it off the motor and just ran it - starts off real quick and then slows down - so i'ts going in for a service today

sorry if this is daft but thats what a flat or weak battery would do innit? try a charge....

Sorry to be bearer of bad news Mark but it's a strip down to get the follower out.

The followers are put in with engine inverted before cam is inserted.

Rob Lane

Just read this thread, bummer on the eventual problem m8.
Just thought I'd add my tuppence worth on the tappets debate.
Although there are many ways to speed up setting tappets, there is one absuloutly certain way to get each valve correct. (especially when a hot cam is used)
Turn crank till valve you want to set is fully open.
Mark crank position realative to timing mark or any other fixed point.
turn engine one revolution.
That valve is as closed as it will ever be.
Set clearance.
1 turn of crank = 1/2 turn of cam on 4 stroke.

Yeah it was bad news - took the cam out (luckily it was the first one so the cam only had to came out about 8cm, then i pushed a wooden spoon up the follower hole and the offending piece popped out.

Put it back together. And it runs! Well, thats a bit o' luck.

Not running"Perfect" but still needs carbs setting up (i said i'd do this straigth after the SVA 4 months ago, but hte thing blew up before i could arrange an appointment.). Will get this done and a few other tweaks before Donny!

Cheers for a ll your support!!

M ark

{Waves hand} wasn't me driving when it broke....

Don't know if it was a new cam that was fitted but it's always recommended that new followers be fitted with it.

If it's not a new cam and you did a stripdown rebuild then it's important that the followers are kept numerical when rebuilt. i.e. No.1 follower No1 lobe.

Wear patterns match up to each lobe. If a follower from a different lobe is fitted then it's entirely possible to wear down the lobe till round or shatter the follower.
Wear usually takes place over a couple of thousand miles on a Xflow and the only indication is a slow loss of power finally followed by what seems a misfire. (Due to no valve lift on the follower)