Help! I've got the usual dilemma bec or cec.
My MK order needs to be finalized in the next week so I have to make this decision asap.
My initial idea was to use a 2l zetec & so I bought a new block which is now sat in the garage. Talking to Phil & a couple of other guys at MK though I was definitely being steered in the bec direction.

I want to be able to drive to work in the summer which involves about 25 miles down the A23 / M23, have a bit of a blast around the south downs, the odd track day / hillclimb.

I'm not an out & out speed freak I just want a car that handles well & is good fun. I guess that puts me more in zetec territory but I'm drawn to the simplicity & cost of the R1 install (at least compared to the zetec). Also Phil mentioned that I'd loose 8-10" legroom putting in the zetec which worries me a bit even though I'm only 5'10".

Although I've been a passsenger in an R1 Indy around a track I've never actually driven one. Are they a pain to drive if they're not being driven flat out. Although they sound great on those youtube vids I imagine it could get a bit tiresome at a steady 80mph down the motorway.

Also, If I go for the R1, am I likely to get a carb'ed version through SVA ?

Right, i'll stand back & let the battle commence

zetec....end of
it depend on what you want out of your steed,bikes are great for track days and squirts on a sunday morning,for a daily driver i would go zetec.(dons flack jacket and tin hat)

I think you need to have a drive of both to decide.

If you do want to hill climb it you should have a look at the regs fro the different classes before deciding - you might find that you'll need slicks in the Bike engined classes on the other hand car engined classes are often roadgoing spec.

cheers

Mark

I bought mine part built with a zetec, but am now going for an r1 instead, I know plenty of people who use their bec's on motorways etc.
Just off the a23 myself, so mine'll blasted up and down once it's done

R1!!!. I've had a Pinto which I changed for a blade. Now I have a Fazer (R1 ish) absolutly fantastic to drive, not just because of acceleration, noise etc, but also because of how the car handles being much lighter at the front. Easy to drive around town i.e you dont have to drive flat out. It's quite happy to sit at 3000 revs, but when you need to floor it, there is nothing that compares. Just my opinion

Leigh

Had a Zetec MAC1, was pleased with it at first, thought it was quick and handled reasonably well. Now built a GSXR1000k4, totally different car, just more nimble and nicer to drive. Wouldnt go back to car engine.
regards Chris

I suppose the next question is - anyone down brighton way got a bike engined MK to let me have a ride in ?

ok
any back engine carb or injection needs setting up but all will pass the SVA

If you want a complete buzz that when you put it away youll want the FIX as soon as you get up the following morning
youll not go wrong with the r1

coupled with almost 60mph in first gear
sequential gear box

the noise and 13,000rpm

easy driving aswell

once you get use to the on off clutch

if your worried about noise
you should have heard mine stripped our race can

passengers ears would ring days afterwards but the grin on there face stayed with it to

An R1 will give 150 BHP for early engines and 180 for later ones. A zetec will give 135 in stock form and 150 with some tuning. The R1 engine and gearbox will be something like 70 or 80 kg heavier (read 10 or 12% slower) for the same power.

I have an R1 car. The clutch is set up to give good feel and I have no problem with stalling. The acceleration is awesome. 70 MPH = 6600 RPM with a 3.62 diff ( would be 5750 with a 3.14) which makes long motorway journey tiresome. Sevens were not made for motorways. 9000 - 12000 on B roads is just the best automotove noise save for an F1 V10.

For cruising or touring, a car engine is best, but then a car is best as it has a roof and boot space. For real driving on a realistic budget, a bike engine is best. My ideal engine would be a car engine with 250+ BHP at 8000 or 9000 RPM. Not cheap though.

colin typed that wrong his ideal engine would be a ZX14r

he typed car engine by mistake

I think CalvinX's response said it all. Everyone will have a different opinion and a different reason for it.

When I was taking out the Pinto I considered both but opted for the 2.0 Zetec. The initial install will cost me around £850 but I will recover about £650 from selling my old engine and parts.
So £200 for the upgrade with Megasquirt on separate throttle bodies and an LC1 Wideband Controller.
This leaves an easy upgrade for more power next year and cheap maintenance from now on.
I will drive to Le Mans again this year in the Seven. I would not fancy it in a BEC, either for reliability or noise.
If I was looking for a trackday toy I guess it would be a BEC, or probably a breathed on Duratec, but for a road vehicle a Zetec suits my needs. When upgraded next winter I am hoping to see around 200bhp which will be nice

Bike engines are for bikes that weigh about 180 Kilos. Take a sports bike and go for a blast then take your partner out on the back of it and kills the performance. My wife is only just over 50 KG and she completely changed the get up and go of my Fireblade and R1. If you want bike engine performance go and buy a bike. So by default if you want a sports car put a sports car engine in it. Torque and cc’s count, especially on real world roads.

Also, unless you are under 25 do you really want to be going round to the local pub at 13,000 revs?

And then there is reversing to consider.

quote,I want to be able to drive to work in the summer which involves about 25 miles down the A23 / M23, have a bit of a blast around the south downs, the odd track day / hillclimb.



M23 in a seven, that would scare me. You will get run over by a Eastern european lorry driver.
Steve

[Edited on 30/12/06 by stevec]

quote:

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Originally posted by bodger
Also Phil mentioned that I'd loose 8-10" legroom putting in the zetec which worries me a bit even though I'm only 5'10".

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Yes I thought 8-10" was a bit excessive, still that's what the man said.

Id go for a car engine if your not going to sprint it.

IM building mine for the road and the odd few trackdays. If you blow a zetec youl get another for 200 quid max, swap your bit over and away you go. i doubt youl swap out a blown bike lump for the same.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Lovelock
Bike engines are for bikes that weigh about 180 Kilos. Take a sports bike and go for a blast then take your partner out on the back of it and kills the performance. My wife is only just over 50 KG and she completely changed the get up and go of my Fireblade and R1. If you want bike engine performance go and buy a bike. So by default if you want a sports car put a sports car engine in it. Torque and cc’s count, especially on real world roads.

Also, unless you are under 25 do you really want to be going round to the local pub at 13,000 revs?

And then there is reversing to consider.

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quote:

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Originally posted by zxrlocost
colin typed that wrong his ideal engine would be a ZX14r

he typed car engine by mistake

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steve lovelock

you are talking shite


Bikes have primary reduction look it up

also youll know then what happens when you gear down a bike

so take in fact MY MK weighed 460kg was geared down to 122mph (plenty enough)

had 330bhp per ton

as measured on the g tech accurate enough

0-60 3.9

1/4 12.9

Ill give you another scenario

go down the pub in an CEC youll get a few lookers nice car etc

go down the PUB at 13,000rpm PADDLE SHIFT the noise etc

youll get 5x as much drooling over the car
then pull of the car park 60mph in first gear


so Bike engines are for bikes and under 25,s

thats why BECS are so hard to beat on track and off

an equivalent car engine would cost double treble etc

reverse What do you need to go backwards for?

anyone got any videos of BEC?

is there anyway of getting round the reverse problem?

why is the reverse a problem I never got stuck

there so light roll backwards etc
unless of course i appreciate you may have a hilly drive

http://video.ibuilt.it/oultonforweb.wmv

see if this works mate

richi in his r1 two up at oulton

I could swear the car in front which has money bags of torque isnt really going anywherewhich has money bags of torque

[Edited on 30/12/06 by zxrlocost]

Thanks for all the replies guys. As regards the R1. Is there a specific year to go for ? Carbs or Injection. What's the going rate for a good low mileage one?

Plus the blokes in the the pub will be laughing there arses off when you have to push it from your parking space cos you aint got reverse.

is this before or after Ive parked the car in a position ready to pull straight off
pinto boy

R1 all engines are great 98-2001 is carb

really makes no difference apart from the very newer ones being more money but having more top end power
the difference is noubt tbh

an 893 fireblade engine is rapid still

anything over 800 quid for the full gear with the loom etc

[Edited on 30/12/06 by zxrlocost]

Well I hoped I might spike a little interest with my bike verses car engine thoughts but I hardly expected to labelled as talking utter rubbish and ‘shite’.

Zxrlocost does a good job making a few extra quid selling car builders bike engines and good luck to him. However I have no wish to look up primary reduction when the same man tells me that 122mph is ‘plenty enough’. Spend £3000 on an R1 (as in complete bike) and go do 170mph then write that 122 cuts the mustard. 3.9 to 60 sounds great until you realise that the same £3000 R1 will do it in two thirds of the time.

The video was great though, the car looked very rapid. But I note that it was overtaken by a car with just one person in. Also, it didn’t have indicators let alone a windscreen so it is hardly the sort of thing that one could hack around the A23 / M23 on the way to work is it.

And why would anybody spend £3000 on a ZX14 engine when a Duratec with an induction kit etc could be bought and installed to provide well over 200 BHP, torque and a reverse for the same money, one could ask Caterham for a second opinion.

Smart51 seems like a nice chap too but tells us that he would never buy a bike, let alone a big bike, in other words I could easily be persuaded that he’s either old, under the thumb or a little bit of a chicken.

£800 for a bike engine putting out 120 – 150 BHP is good value but the same will get a car engine with the same power, a reverse gear and the ability to get you to Nuremberg and back in some degree of style.

I agree with CaLviNx, try both and not just on a track or a Sunday blast but on the way to work on a typical English day, ie hot, cold, dry, windy and wet then make up your own mind. Me, I’m biased; buy a bike and build a car and have both worlds for the price of a second hand Ford Focus.

122 mph in any 7 is adequate enough
you mentioned torque that is why I mentioned PR it has nothing to do with top speed
140 in a zx12r BEC no probs there really is not much benefit apart from a V long straight

why doesnt everyone just go and buy a bike then for three grand if thats your view

some people havent got a licence or are not interested in bikes

PS I dont sell bike engines

theres so much more for using bike engines ,up front weight, extreme handling etc

maybe an MX5 would suit you more my car had no windscreen heaters etc
and looked so much better for it

MX5? That's a low blow

the more i read your posts the more I know you dont know what your on about
the car in the vid is a fully road legal car
so its got indicators

and all the other stuff about equivalent car performance for the same money haha!

200bhp duratec would cost thousands

zx12r can be picked up for £1500 now

youd have to go a long way to compete

arrive in luxury with your flying jacket on

[Edited on 30/12/06 by zxrlocost]

98/99 R1s are basic carbed engines. 00/01 are much the same but with some small changes. 02/03 engines are very similar but fuel injection. FI engines give smoother power delivery and slightly more torque and power. 04/05/06 engines are quite different with another 2000 RPM allowing 30 more BHP. The gearing doesn't suit a car quite as well. The higher rev limit makes noise problems worse. The torque at the bottom end isn't as good and so some argue that 0-40 MPH they aren't as good as earlier engines.

Carbed engines need rejetting if you change the exhaust or airbox and you will. FI engines need a power commander to do the same job. The power commander route is more pricise and doesn't force you into compromises. It is more expensive but better.

Bare engine on eBay £600. Full FI engine and all ancillaries £1200. If I were starting from scratch I'd have the 2002 FI engine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Lovelock
Well I hoped I might spike a little interest with my bike verses car engine thoughts but I hardly expected to labelled as talking utter rubbish and ‘shite’.

Zxrlocost does a good job making a few extra quid selling car builders bike engines and good luck to him. However I have no wish to look up primary reduction when the same man tells me that 122mph is ‘plenty enough’. Spend £3000 on an R1 (as in complete bike) and go do 170mph then write that 122 cuts the mustard. 3.9 to 60 sounds great until you realise that the same £3000 R1 will do it in two thirds of the time.

The video was great though, the car looked very rapid. But I note that it was overtaken by a car with just one person in. Also, it didn’t have indicators let alone a windscreen so it is hardly the sort of thing that one could hack around the A23 / M23 on the way to work is it.

And why would anybody spend £3000 on a ZX14 engine when a Duratec with an induction kit etc could be bought and installed to provide well over 200 BHP, torque and a reverse for the same money, one could ask Caterham for a second opinion.

Smart51 seems like a nice chap too but tells us that he would never buy a bike, let alone a big bike, in other words I could easily be persuaded that he’s either old, under the thumb or a little bit of a chicken.

£800 for a bike engine putting out 120 – 150 BHP is good value but the same will get a car engine with the same power, a reverse gear and the ability to get you to Nuremberg and back in some degree of style.

I agree with CaLviNx, try both and not just on a track or a Sunday blast but on the way to work on a typical English day, ie hot, cold, dry, windy and wet then make up your own mind. Me, I’m biased; buy a bike and build a car and have both worlds for the price of a second hand Ford Focus.

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I love the way the BEC and CEC questions always turn personal!

Its all down to a personal choice, some people will be happy commuting everyday in a BEC, somepeople will only be happy with something that doesnt have to be thrashed to go fast.

People are always going to defend their corner and say their choice was the best. "I went for a bike engine, but stupidly made the wrong decision and now look really silly pushing it about in the pub car park" They're just arnt going to admit it are they!

Money out of the equation it would be interesting how a R500/CSR260 would fair against a busa/zx14 engined car. The caterhams weight in at 500kg so not far off the BECs, wonder how the extra power torque would do against the better cornering.

Top Trumps time again...I found out on my first track day that out and out speed is good but good brakes and cornering are just as important. Get a feel for both, you might be able to make up your own mind. I've driven both and I would say the CEC is a lot easier to drive in every way.

Totally agree, Ive got an R1 BEC but I wouldnt necessarily recommend one to everyone and I think if I was in bodger's position I probably would err on the side of a good CEC install on this occasion due to the type of driving he'll be doing, but its hardly suprising when half / untruths are purported as fact by people that really don't know what they are talking about, it tends to gets other's backs up and ends up like that.

I think bodgers already decided

chris ta for backing up my info thought I was talking tatt must be other people

greggors you have a good point about top spec cars comparing

but least not forget I could build a nice 7 using a 12r/busa/14r with a good spec for about 7-9k if I was careful

how much are r500''s



[Edited on 31/12/06 by zxrlocost]

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Put a 150bhp Zetec engine'd Seven against a BEC with an R1 of the same power and the Zetec won't see which way the BEC went.

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they werent trying

Just one small note here ... Why on earth would you want a Seven for everyday use??? Are some kind of S&M chap?

I live in a country that has some of the crappiest roads in europe, the average gear on our 'motorways' is 3rd gear, there seems to be a traffic jam every other corner, and now our local authorities are becoming speed-camera-happy.

Still, who cares!!! We are blessed with one of the best Drag Strips in the south of Europe, a modest but very fun and friendly Hill Climb Championship, and good weather with great seafront roads, all year round. So BEC here I come

quote:

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Originally posted by stevebubs
On a track - probably. However, my zetec Fury wasn't having any trouble keeping up with the BECs on the 2006 Le Mans trip.

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Guys, thanks for all the replies. I think I'm going the R1 route.

Wise choice

Phil

o/ fine choice dude

Interesting debate, but why state "zetec" as the car engine choice?

With specific reference to the title, i would probably elect for the R1, but I went through this same debate when I specced my 7.

I just sat down with the calculator and lots of weights of typical cars and engines etc, to work out power to weight ratios.

From that I can see that to hit approx 350hp tonne I needed either a 205hp Vauxhall XE engine OR a 185hp Hayabusa engine, either gave identical power to weight ratio.

The clincher was then price vs convenience. I already had lots of vauxhall bits and knew them well, the installation would have reverse gear and most of all, I didn't have to pay the inflated £2500 - £3000 required to buy the busa engine, the vauxhall cost me £250..........................

horses for courses, but don't criticise car engines if you have only been in std ish pinto engine cars, a proper car engine (sorry to those with decent tuned pintos as these are a bit different! ) is a different kettle of fish!!!!!!

I said zetec cos I've got a new one sat in the garage. Bought it for a reasonable price without really doing my homework (I know fool & his money blah blah).
Didn't realise the work involved in getting it up & running (1.8 flywheel, rwd bits, figure out megasquirt, bike carbs, change water pump, modify sump, etc etc). I'm sure it would be enjoyable in a drawn out masochistic head scratching kind of way but would it be really worth it at the end of the day compared to dropping in an R1?

How come the S2000 engine is never used? Rev happy, good power, not too heavy/big... I guess it turns the "wrong" way, but wouldn't that be solved by using the S2000 rear diff?

quote:

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Originally posted by akumabito
How come the S2000 engine is never used? Rev happy, good power, not too heavy/big... I guess it turns the "wrong" way, but wouldn't that be solved by using the S2000 rear diff?

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Hi after just reading all that i would just like to confirm that a cec with a 160bhp zetec can easily acive a 0-60 in less than 3 secs and do the 0-64 ft for sprinting with 200 bhp in 1.9 secs.

At the end of the day it all comes down to wether you fancy a bec or a cec as there is no definitive proof of either being substatially better than the other it's just a personal choise.

cheers matt

quote:

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a cec with a 160bhp zetec can easily acive a 0-60 in less than 3 secs

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quote:

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Originally posted by procomp
i would just like to confirm that a cec with a 160bhp zetec can easily acive a 0-60 in less than 3 secs

cheers matt

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Hi no it was just a standard LA gold sva'd and used for sprinting in the welsh sprint championship road going class by gordon hick who won his class and i think overhaul one year.

cheers matt

Ps car weighed 510kg

[Edited on 6/1/07 by procomp]

Ah, since it was a sprinter, did it have a low/special FD?

Beat the tiger twin engined thingy then too the road legal world record ?

Hi no special FD just a live axle with 4.7 i think ratio.

These results are not paticuly impresive as thier are a few westfield,s around that can achive the same results once set up to do so. Then there are mallock clubmans cars for sprinting that can go slightly quicker with slicks ect.

cheers matt

So , after all that , is it , bike or car then.

1.9sec for first 64ft? only ever seen that done in an out and out race car.