When you need to reverse you simply use the pole to "punt" yourself backwards. No need to even undo your harness. Should be easy what with you BEC boys being so low weight of course
There seems to have been relatively little discussion on here about how us BEC folk are going to deal with the reverse requirement for IVA??
Personally I have no real intention of going backwards and would prefer to do without which is why I'm loathed to spend £350+ on anything the
various companies are offering.
So what are peoples thoughts? What is anyone else doing about it?
Or do I just pony up the dough and then sell it on again after?
How about a starter motor on a toothed ring gear bolted to the sprocket? Shouldnt be too difficult.
How about keeping a wooden pole behind your seat?
When you need to reverse you simply use the pole to "punt" yourself backwards. No need to even undo your harness. Should be easy what with
you BEC boys being so low weight of course
Yeah I think that's what MK do - £350!!
My fabrication skills are poo though, I guess for a start do we know which starter motors would be right size, spin right way and be powerful enough?
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
How about keeping a wooden pole behind your seat?
When you need to reverse you simply use the pole to "punt" yourself backwards. No need to even undo your harness. Should be easy what with you BEC boys being so low weight of course
MNR are releasing one according to totalkitcar
http://www.totalkitcar.com/news.php
Not cheap at £499 inc VAT but probably lighter and more reliable than a starter motor based solution.
Edit: Beware removing a reverse after IVA unless you're happy to declare it to the insurance companies and let them load the policy
accordingly.
[Edited on 14/5/09 by iank]
define 'proper'
i'd say proper means an actual reverse gear like you'd get in a car gearox, so in that case, the quafi box is your option, otherwise starter
motor with ring gear. been done many times by folk on here i think
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
define 'proper'
i'd say proper means an actual reverse gear like you'd get in a car gearox, so in that case, the quafi box is your option, otherwise starter motor with ring gear. been done many times by folk on here i think
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
How about keeping a wooden pole behind your seat?
When you need to reverse you simply use the pole to "punt" yourself backwards. No need to even undo your harness. Should be easy what with you BEC boys being so low weight of course
I'd also like to know which starter motors are most suitable. There is a thread with a few pictures of various installations, but haven't
found much info on where to get the ring gear or how to wire it all up.
As far as I know, buying an Quaife or MNR box and selling it after IVA would mean having to change prop shafts too, unfortunately.
I'm off to the scrapyard on Saturday to try and find a reasonably small and hopefully decent Bosch or equivalent starter to use. Have got a
supplier of spur gears lined up so just need to find the right size starter and then match the gearing. Intend to sandwich it between the diff and
prop as discussed on the other topic. I will try and post some more when I get a bit further on with it.
I agree that info and how to on the subject is limited at the moment on here. Certainly to me (no fabricator either) the MK setup looks easy enough to
replicate without spending £350. Also sure the poster there said that didn't include welding mounting tubes on for the starter !
Rich
Food for thought?
rev3
quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
Food for thought?
rev3
quote:
gotta be a carbon fibre pole.
I dont think the pole would pass radius tests 
I quite like the pole behind the seat idea. Or even an estonion or lithuanian.
There are a lot of variables involved in fabricating an electric reverse, not least is using a starter motor that runs in the correct direction, if
you don't want another forward gear 
Then there is finding a starter with a gear pitch that can be replicated, some manufactures use some very strange pitch and pressure angles.
You then need a starter that is small enough to fit, but powerful enough to move the car and at least the driver.
So far I have found what I believe to be a suitable starter and have ordered a spur gear that will fit on the diff flange as per MK, also have just
finished the drawings for a motor mount that can be either bolted, or welded on the chassis and is adjustable, so in theory it should fit most
7's.
All this lot should come together in about 2 weeks, so if you can wait I could put it all together with relays and wiring and try for a group buy, but
I will definitely post a shopping list, if it all works
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
There are a lot of variables involved in fabricating an electric reverse, not least is using a starter motor that runs in the correct direction, if you don't want another forward gear
Then there is finding a starter with a gear pitch that can be replicated, some manufactures use some very strange pitch and pressure angles.
You then need a starter that is small enough to fit, but powerful enough to move the car and at least the driver.
So far I have found what I believe to be a suitable starter and have ordered a spur gear that will fit on the diff flange as per MK, also have just finished the drawings for a motor mount that can be either bolted, or welded on the chassis and is adjustable, so in theory it should fit most 7's.
All this lot should come together in about 2 weeks, so if you can wait I could put it all together with relays and wiring and try for a group buy, but I will definitely post a shopping list, if it all works
quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
Food for thought?
rev3
quote:
Originally posted by iank
MNR are releasing one according to totalkitcar
http://www.totalkitcar.com/news.php
Not cheap at £499 inc VAT but probably lighter and more reliable than a starter motor based solution.
Edit: Beware removing a reverse after IVA unless you're happy to declare it to the insurance companies and let them load the policy accordingly.
[Edited on 14/5/09 by iank]
What what be used to control the speed of the reverse? last thing i want to do is switch it on and end up smashing through my garage door lol.
Brake pedal!
why electric?
has anyone considered hydraulic solution - e.g. using power steering pump as the driver or compressed air?
Far too complicated I think.
It would be difficult, if not impossible, to run a hydraulic pump from a bike engine, so an electric pump would be needed plus some form of hydraulic
motor to turn prop shaft or a wheel, same with compressed air, then figure in the weight and complexity
In the end most of us don't actually want a reverse, we must have one for IVA, so the simplest/cheapest route is the best way, and if it turns
out to be usable as well, that's a bonus
Sounds to me like there's a market here for a 'rent-a-reverse', in a similar way to the 'rent-a-cat' for IVA purposes.
I'm sure whoever designs and builds a simple one that could be easily transferred from vehicle to vehicle, would soon recoup their initial outlay
and even make a few quid
Phil
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Sounds to me like there's a market here for a 'rent-a-reverse', in a similar way to the 'rent-a-cat' for IVA purposes.
I'm sure whoever designs and builds a simple one that could be easily transferred from vehicle to vehicle, would soon recoup their initial outlay and even make a few quid
Phil
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
Would there be any consequences from removing reverse after IVA? Someone mentioned not being insured if you did this
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
There are a lot of variables involved in fabricating an electric reverse, not least is using a starter motor that runs in the correct direction, if you don't want another forward gear
Then there is finding a starter with a gear pitch that can be replicated, some manufactures use some very strange pitch and pressure angles.
You then need a starter that is small enough to fit, but powerful enough to move the car and at least the driver.
So far I have found what I believe to be a suitable starter and have ordered a spur gear that will fit on the diff flange as per MK, also have just finished the drawings for a motor mount that can be either bolted, or welded on the chassis and is adjustable, so in theory it should fit most 7's.
All this lot should come together in about 2 weeks, so if you can wait I could put it all together with relays and wiring and try for a group buy, but I will definitely post a shopping list, if it all works
I found the Golf Mk4 to be ok for size and power. As said, starter motor gear teeth are a bit on the strange side, so I found it easier to take a VAG
ring gear to the gear manufactures and it came out as a 12DP. I was expecting a MOD pitch!
This won't be working and confirmed until I have the new spur gear back.
Could you get enough torque/grip from a starter motor to work some kind of reverse with a rubber wheel against the prop/diff. i.e. mount a rubber
tyred wheel of some sort on the starter motor shaft and then mount the motor next to/above the diff on some sort of pivot arrangement so the rubber
wheel can be lowered against the difff flange (might meed some sort of mating rubber section on the diff flange) to provide the drive. If the motor
pivoted the right way, the rotation of the wheel would pull itself against the diff flange.
Simple and cheap to make and operate (lever next to handbrake maybe) and no power loss when it's not in use.
I picked up a Ford Fiesta 1.25 Zetec starter and sent that to HPC Gears yesterday. They have confirmed it is 12 DP and have quoted me £69 +VAT for a
131mm dia spur gear (10mm width).
Might be able to push the diameter a bit if you want to "expand" the tunnel sides but thats pretty close to the max space I see as
available. Going to have a measure up tonight before I decide to order it.
Will keep you posted.
Rich
quote:
Originally posted by rb968
I picked up a Ford Fiesta 1.25 Zetec starter and sent that to HPC Gears yesterday. They have confirmed it is 12 DP and have quoted me £69 +VAT for a 131mm dia spur gear (10mm width).
Might be able to push the diameter a bit if you want to "expand" the tunnel sides but thats pretty close to the max space I see as available. Going to have a measure up tonight before I decide to order it.
Will keep you posted.
Rich
They also charge £17 for a bore up to 99mm and a further £35 for another bore over 100mm, all plus vat!
I work for an engineering firm so opening the bore from 22mm standard and drilling the holes for the prop/diff bolt pattern is not a problem for me.
Just can't cut spur gears!
You need a friendly machine shop to finish the job!
Rich
Who is the chap on here with the water cutting machine. Can he help with the bore and holes?
Rich
After , measuring up tonight i think ineed to up the gear dia to 6" which takes it about 5mm into the cabin either side of the tunnel. Will get
anew quote. Anyone know what size gear MK supply?
Rich
quote:
Originally posted by rb968
After , measuring up tonight i think ineed to up the gear dia to 6" which takes it about 5mm into the cabin either side of the tunnel. Will get anew quote. Anyone know what size gear MK supply?
Rich
New quote for 6.0" PCD (6.167" OD) is £78.97.
They forgot to change number of teeth but am assuming 66 based on your post.
Reason for going bigger is I have sent the starter away and am now worrying there is not enough room for it under the prop at the smaller size and
that I will blow £100 on a gear and the starter fouls the prop! I don;t want to be working to mm clearances when its spinning at that rate :-0
Will have to reinforce the tunnel side and bow out those sections to cover the gear as per the MK version. Not great but hey needs must.
Rich
quote:
Originally posted by rb968
New quote for 6.0" PCD (6.167" OD) is £78.97.
Reason for going bigger is I have sent the starter away and am now worrying there is not enough room for it under the prop at the smaller size and that I will blow £100 on a gear and the starter fouls the prop! I don;t want to be working to mm clearances when its spinning at that rate :-0
Rich
I noticed at Stoneleigh that MK are now mounting their starter motor from the top rails so they have no need to cut the floor.
They are using a VW starter motor.
 (was trying to insert an image, but don't know how).


Pete.
[Edited on 21/5/09 by peteday_uk@btinternet.com]
I looked at that but the handbrake mechanism seemed to be in the way.
The photos of the MK setup were useful as you say they showed you would probably need to grid away the top part of the alloy housing. The Fiesta
starter has a 4 mm approx lip which will need removing.
Rich
Have ordered the bugger now so fingers crossed ! 72 teeth 6" PCD 12 DP.
Rich
Have you paid yet? went down to HPC yesterday to see if mine was ready, not started it yet apparently was on pro former invoice, however they forgot
to send it to me, or even tell me 
No apology, just that they will do their best to get it out next week???? NOT impressed!
Yep paid and the nice lady said up to 14 days.
Will wait and see ! Hope you get yours sorted.
Rich
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
How about keeping a wooden pole behind your seat?
When you need to reverse you simply use the pole to "punt" yourself backwards. No need to even undo your harness. Should be easy what with you BEC boys being so low weight of course
This might be a silly question but why does the gear need to be bored out to such an extent? Would a circular plate with teeth cut and holes drilled not do the job?
quote:
Originally posted by tommyab
This might be a silly question but why does the gear need to be bored out to such an extent? Would a circular plate with teeth cut and holes drilled not do the job?
don't think so! plus the gear needs to run true. .JPG)
Hehe. Fair enough. I guess those bolts are quite small. Im not used to engineering stuff on such a small scale (offshore construction/installation
is my day job).
Thats looking good. I am following you guys progress with much interest!
Cheers,
Tom
Brackets in place and adjusted.
Have put a video on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0V0clui0BQ
I have just looked at the video. Looks good. I have to be honest and say in my own mind the reverse would be alot slower than that. Or is it simply
a case of it not being connected to anything?
[Edited on 11/6/09 by peteday_uk@btinternet.com]
It's a lot slower at the wheels, perhaps walking pace, you have to factor in the diff ratio
me being stupid then........sorry
If you don't mind me asking. How much has it cost you in the end?
Pete.
All together around £320 so far, but that includes a new starter motor, one off gear, brackets, cable, switches and relay, I am negotiating for a
group buy (min 5 off) that should come in at around £275 as a complete kit, but don't quote me just yet
40inches
Can you say what starter u are working with? I know it's a VDub - MK4 Golf / Polo, but what model? cheers thanks D
quote:
Originally posted by Davg
40inches
Can you say what starter u are working with? I know it's a VDub - MK4 Golf / Polo, but what model? cheers thanks D
OOOh AR! that's a list an a half! Shouldn't be a prob there. Cheers for that
Don't do what I've done and spent all day mounting a Fiesta 1.25 Zetec starter and making the brackets etc only to fire it up (worked
perfectly) and guess what.....it ran the wrong effing way. Oh how my Dad and I laughed......threw my tools across the garage......locked up and came
home.
Off to the scrappy for a VW starter and yes this time I will check it runs clockwise and not anticlockwise !!!! Felt like a Scrapheap Challenge
moment.
Back to the beer.
Rich
Any updates on how your reverse is coming along 40inches?
quote:
Originally posted by rb968
Don't do what I've done and spent all day mounting a Fiesta 1.25 Zetec starter and making the brackets etc only to fire it up (worked perfectly) and guess what.....it ran the wrong effing way. Oh how my Dad and I laughed......threw my tools across the garage......locked up and came home.
Off to the scrappy for a VW starter and yes this time I will check it runs clockwise and not anticlockwise !!!! Felt like a Scrapheap Challenge moment.
Back to the beer.
Rich
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
9T 1.1KW GR M8 N
LRT00177
Cross Ref:
0001121006
0001121007
020911023F
020911023T
You can get them new on the Bay for around £100, they fit all these models, so are relatively easy to find;
Hi
does anyone know the spec of the gear as supplied by MK? ie is it compatable with the list of starter motor shown on here?
cheers
Rog