dhutch
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| posted on 17/2/10 at 11:52 PM |
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Re-engine, to do or not to do, blacktop or silvertop.
Right, long story short, prompt by the offer of a 1800rs silvertop for £40 ive been doing some thinking about engines and re-engining the
westfeild.
Currently it has a cvh in it, little know about it and ive not had it dyno'ed, but i was sold it as a 1900 and confirmed a power enginering cam
but little else. Works fairly well although i think it could do with a tune if i keep it.
Other than a tune if i keep it i would be hesitant to spend any money on the cvh.
With rather optimistic pricing given the advice ive been given i recon i could get the silvertop in for £200, pus £40 for the engine and then get it
rolling roaded.
That pays for:
£30 130bph 2l cams
£80 for a inlet manifold
£35 exhuast flange to mod onto the currnet manifold
£8 for a spigot
£25 new plug leads
Maybe £50 for a new clutch while im at it?
Engine mounts i would DIY foc
Ignition would be the megajolt from the cvh
Ditto carbs would be the dellorto dhla 40's
Box is a alu bellhousing type9
Tattle about with the engine and make sure i have everything till mid june when i graduate, do the swap in the first few weeks of the holidays, and go
off an have 4months summer before starting the long hard grind of real life.
I hope to keep the car as long as i can, maybe another 3-2 years, but otherwise the zetec could pay for itself if i resold maybe?
The other option, is to do simular, but to use a 2l blacktop, but seam to knock about for £100-150 fairly often such as this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110493094608&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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So basically, long story short, do I :-
a) do nothing, and pretend this sillyness never happened and enjoy the cvh
b) buy andys £40 1.8 silvertop and whack it in for giggles and do it for as little as i can to see what that is
c) stick a 2l blacktop in it and do it properly.
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Also, if do the blacktop options, bar the additional £801-00 for the engine, what other costs would there be in installing it compared to the 1800
silvertop which by all accounts it the easiest zetec to put into a seven.
- What performance would i be looking at with that over the silvertop?
Im told the silvertop on the 40's should do around 150-160bhp to the 130ish the 1900 should do it it is what i bought it as and is in ok
shape.
Daniel
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 18/2/10 at 06:07 AM |
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Dunnel quote an 1800 as 155bhp built with the cams etc, and they get things spot on. So 150 is probably a real world max (Mine with the DHLA's
was 149 at a RR, but even then I suspect the operator cheated to up the figures. Seems that happens a lot, after all everybody wants to see big
numbers )
So you may get a 20bhp increase......
a lot of work for a little gain, and it is dependant on how good the silvertop engine is, plus are there any other costs you may need to think about?
will the sump be OK, what about cam followers (reface?) plus a new cambelt, and a few gaskets. Doesn't seem a lot but small bits and bobs do add
up if you are a budget.
You are right about is adding value though. (as a thought doesn't the rs have the better cams already?) What about the thermostat, will there be
space?
Difficult to make the decision, but make sure it doesn't take too much time out of the summer
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dan8400
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| posted on 18/2/10 at 08:29 AM |
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Keep an eye on ebay for some or all of your bits.
I got a 2litre set of 130 bhp cams for 99p plus tenner postage 
Dan
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wilkingj
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| posted on 18/2/10 at 09:28 AM |
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If it aint broke, dont fix it!
If the current engine is reliable then keep it in for the time being and use the car, as Summer will be upon us shortly. (I think Summer was on a
Wednesday afternoon last year)
Take your time, and assemble a pile of bits, and do it as a winter project.
That way you can plan, and spread the costs and perhaps even save a little.
Less stressful, and will result in a better job.
Just my 2d's worth.
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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Dusty
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| posted on 18/2/10 at 10:39 AM |
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As someone who has had a pinto, silvertop, blacktop and currently ST170 engine in the car over the last three years I'm mostly underwhelmed by
the zetec engine. Not that its slow, just dull! You press the go pedal and a few seconds later decide this is fast enough glance at the speedo and
think 'woops, better ease off a bit, thats faster than I intended.' The old pinto was all sound, fury and excitment and so much more
involving and somehow more fun.
But I digress. Service and adjust the CVH, take it to a rolling road and get it properly set up so you can see what you actually have now. Then you
can make a better decision. Remember the silvertop will be about 150 and the blacktop 170ish at the flywheel with good manifolds and properly set up.
CVH to silvertop may make little gain if your CVH is a good one.
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dhutch
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| posted on 18/2/10 at 02:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
Dunnel quote an 1800 as 155bhp built with the cams etc, and they get things spot on. So 150 is probably a real world max
So you may get a 20bhp increase......
a lot of work for a little gain, and it is dependant on how good the silvertop engine is
- will the sump be OK?
- what about cam followers (reface?)
- plus a new cambelt
- few gaskets.
- what about thermostat clearence
- doesn't the rs have the better cams already?
You are right about is adding value though.
Difficult to make the decision, but make sure it doesn't take too much time out of the summer
Sounds about right, dropped the sump off the list somehow.
- Some the say the 1800 is ok, but i would imgaine it would end up with a cut and shut 1800cvh jobbie. (dont think that works with the blacktop
however)
Also the cams, seems to be some slight debate about this (as well as if its a 1800rs or not) but your not the first to mention it.
As for the summer thing, there is indeed a strong agrument for for waiting till winter and doing it then. Expsically if i manage to wangle a some
garage access.
Daniel
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D Beddows
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| posted on 18/2/10 at 02:48 PM |
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I wouldn't...... the silvertop zetec will be 15+ years old now and no one ever really rebuilds them because it's too expensive and tbh I
can't really see there being much of a resale premium between a decently tuned CVH and a standard Silvertop anyway!
Spend some money and get the CVH setup properly on a decent rolling road then just enjoy it is my advice (maybe a cam etc if you really feel the
need). If you want a more powerful engine then start collecting bits for a Duratec or even a bike engine....... but do bear in mind that just because
an engine has more power doesn't mean it's always more fun
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dhutch
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| posted on 19/2/10 at 07:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
I wouldn't...... the silvertop zetec will be 15+ years old now and no one ever really rebuilds them because it's too expensive and tbh I
can't really see there being much of a resale premium between a decently tuned CVH and a standard Silvertop anyway!
Well i understand what you say.
- But a 98 would be 12 yo, against the the cvh's 24 years. (late silvertop)
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morcus
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| posted on 19/2/10 at 07:59 PM |
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Is there a way to work out power without using a rolling road?
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 19/2/10 at 09:04 PM |
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rolling roads are not ideal, you can get big power variations by altering tyre pressures, and so are best used as a tuning tool to set the car up. For
accurate power measurement you need an engine dyno, but that is major hassle.
A good method is to do some timed runs with a stopwatch. If you know the weight of the car (including youi and everything else in it) then you can
work out an approximate power output. Or just make a guess ( ie every zetec 2litre on bike carbs makes 160bhp)
In actual fact a much better system is to measure a standing 1/4mile or 0-60. Those figures have real world meaning
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hicost blade
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| posted on 19/2/10 at 09:20 PM |
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Wait, save up and fit an XE
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dlatch
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| posted on 19/2/10 at 09:43 PM |
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never liked the cvh engines they were always trouble would rather have a pinto than a cvh
but if its running fine then gotta be worth a tune up and at the very least use it until it finally does break
mean time start hoarding parts for a zetec or duratec conversion
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dhutch
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| posted on 20/2/10 at 12:59 PM |
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Indeed, clearly a chassis/engine dyno would be preferable but i cant see how a stopwatch is going to be better than a roller based dyno?
Standing 1/4 mile is somthing i would like to do too, but all in good time!
Benefit with a dyno as i see it is you get a plot of the power curve and values for the o2/lambda values along side it.
Given the XE has been around as long as me (1987) its hardly new in itself and while a cracking engine a lot of work to fit compared to the
comparative compatablity of a zetec.
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dhutch
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| posted on 20/2/10 at 01:04 PM |
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The more i think about it, the best route is indeed to leave the CVH in untill this winter, including, spending some time on it to get it tuned up
better and to see what it can actually do.
But to amass the required parts to do a zetec conversion at the end of the year.
In which case its back to the 'which' zetec topic.
- The black top is newer, but seems to be more effort, and some people (inc burton power) have suggested the silvertop to be preferable anyway.?
- There have been a few comments to the tune of 'the 1800 is more revvy and with 2l/130bhp cams puts out as much power' and i can clearly
get one of these easly and theres less to do to fit it.
- However if im doing it as an upgrade it seam a little perverse not to go for the 2l while im at it. Maybe with a efi cvh flywheel.
Daniel
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dlatch
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| posted on 20/2/10 at 03:13 PM |
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answered your own questions daniel
if you do indeed just start buying up the conversion parts as and when they come up cheap i think you will get it done very cheaply maybe a good idea
to go throttlebody route at the same time, but not 100% needed just a nice bonus + more headaches though
I am thinking if i upgrade my zetec it will be either duratec and stay N/A or boost the zetec (pref a supercharger) as the fwd boys have been getting
great results boosting zetec's for quite a while now and when compared to cosworth YB engine prices the builds are very attractive price
wise.
the modding is never ending and thats actually one of the reason i love my kit its never finished
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dhutch
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| posted on 20/2/10 at 03:32 PM |
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Well, i call it thinking aloud! But clearly open to others suggestions.
- Sometimes the best way to get an option is to state something and have people comment about where your incorrect!
If all things where equal, i would love to use the duratech, and if i where racing i would be me soul choice. However the cars a road car as much as
anything else (with trackdays and autosolo mixed in, granted) and hence things like not making at utter arse of the bodywork com into it and i already
have exhaust and inlet cutouts to match a cvh/zetec.
Again the bike engines tempting, but im not sure its the car for it. Maybe it where a track striker, but not a mixed use westy.
Ditto adding forced induction, is a different application, yes, for this job, its not for me i dont think.
Daniel
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Fizzer
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 04:27 PM |
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I've just done a 1.8 silvertop to 2.0 blacktop. I haven't got to the rolling road yet so it's still running on the old map and
jetting (weber 45's)
The difference is pretty marked, I know the 2L should get an extra 20 hp but the biggest difference IMHO is that there is a lot more low down power.
If you're using the car as a daily driver or just to pootle about then an extra 15 hp at 3K is worth loads more than that 20 hp at 6K.
OK, a revvier engine may be more exciting on track but I'm taking mine round france this summer and I'm really pleased with the
difference.
You probably will have to think about your sump though, not cheap to sort out and they do hang low...
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dhutch
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:27 PM |
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Interesting to hear.
- I presume you put that down mainly to the 2l aspect rather than the blacktop/age aspect?
Odd what you notice isnt it, compared to what the dynos say. With the tintop when i moved from a 1.6 8v (90hp?) engined model (crashed it!) to the 1.8
16v (112?) but otherwise identical model (same age, trim, and everything) the overall power was i think noticeable, but the main difference was that
the 16v head meant that instead pulling from 2.5 but getting a bit breathless at 3.5-4k , it comes on at 2.5-3 and pulls all the way to 5.5k , which i
fine is actually quite nice! (give it death!!)
What did you do for your sump.
- As i understand it you cant do the 1800cvh trick so you onto either spending £200 (not an option) welding aluminium (maybe an option, with a few
formula student and other engineering contacts), or making a custom sump from scratch (not no work, but certainly not unviable, have spend a day with
a load of sporting trails machines which all have custom steel fabricated sumps)
Daniel
[Edited on 21/2/2010 by dhutch]
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Fizzer
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 04:12 PM |
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In comparison - I think it's a bit of both. My silvertop was a v low milage (30K) 130ps xr3i engine and had had some rolling road time. The
blacktop looks like a fairly tired (judging by the cambelt 'flexibility and sump rust) £100 focus unit. I would guess 70K+.
I think it's just a better top end from standard - perhaps not for serious tuning (that's not what I'm doing) but fine for me.
Also, I have weber 45's with 36mm chokes - I think they were just too big for the 1.8 and it struggle to breath properly low down.
perception - Essentially, anything over 2500K is nice and responsive, good surge. top gear roll-ons on fast roads are much improved. Less fiddling
with the 'stick - definately. Of course you can if you want  the main difference is I can wheelspin in 1st, 2nd AND 3rd now
Sump - bit of a b*gger to do on the cheap, blacktop sump is two part afair, ally on top (integral windage tray) and rusty steel pan below. I think you
can get the pan modified cheaply but do investigate the pickup too.
I cheated - I fitted the tiger racing low profile sump - everyone thinks it's b*llocks (including dunnell) and tiger themselves say don't
go on track with it, but a) it holds the oil in b) gives excellent ground clearance.
Do check your heights though, I'm in a fury so your bonnet/ground clearance may be better.
Fitting - I can give you more info about black/silvertop differences if you like - it wasn't too hard to swap - to summarise:
water pump direction changed (new idler pulley and bracket)
alternator (modified bracket)
engine mount (one bolt hole moved)
new oil pickup and windage tray spacers from tiger (robbed tray from silvertop)
also robbed thermostat, clutch and flywheel from silvertop
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