SALAD
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 04:39 PM |
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Very BAD day in the garage!
After finally sorting my shortened pick up pipe (thanks Nat for the advice), I set about fitting the pipe, windage tray, gasket and shortened sump.
I did everything carefully and followed torque settings etc.......then this happened:
http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/IMG00082-20110401-1701.jpg
Fecking annoying you may say but then I noticed one of the bolts had done this to the block:
http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/IMG00081-20110401-1700.jpg
I haven't checked for anymore damage as I walked away from the engine before I took a hammer to something.
The sump obviously wasn't flat or the welding may have affected it but why would the sump bolt do that to the block?! If it was too long due to
gasket differences (cork V's rubber) why did all the others go in ok? (I know there are two longer bolts, it wasn't one of them).
Can the block be fixed?
[Edited on 1/4/11 by SALAD]
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stevec
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 04:56 PM |
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It looks in the picture like the broken bit has spread outwards, if there was oil down the hole could it have had a hydraulic lock and burst the
block?
Steve
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mookaloid
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 04:57 PM |
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The sump looks as if was cracked before and it was going to go at some point anyway. - the dark patch in the middle of the break gives it away
The block looks like the bolt has either been hydraulically locked and burst because there was some oil or grease in the hole when the bolt was being
tightened. or there has been a bolt in the hole and the block has been dropped with a sideways impact on the bolt causing the split.
If you had done it you would have known so don't blame yourself. It might be possible to repair - not the most structural part of the block, but
if it was mine i'd scrap it and find another.
Cheers
mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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mark chandler
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 05:01 PM |
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Its cracked to the outside and there is still a lot of meat holding the carrier in place so could be worth playing about with if you have the tools,
how good is/was the engine as another one cannot be that expensive just grief.
I suppose you have to balance the 'will I get away with it' to the amount of work required to remove and replace the engine if it fails in
the car.
Torque settings, big bolts are lb/ft, little tiddlers are lb/inch, did you overcook it ?
Regards mark
[Edited on 1/4/11 by mark chandler]
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r1_pete
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 05:03 PM |
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It doesn't look like either break is new, as said earlier the dark patch on the sump, but the break in the block looks dirty too, I'd
suspect both were weakened when built up previously, but how is difficult to assess.
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SALAD
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 05:07 PM |
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I don't know about the sump crack/weakness but I didn't notice any problem on the block and I went round with a Stanley blade cleaning the
surface before fitting the sump.
How would I go about fixing it as I can't afford to get another engine. This one has only done 58K and I've spent loads of time and money
on it.
Is the sump worth fixing??
I followed the torque setting very carefully. 15NM if I remember correctly.
[Edited on 1/4/11 by SALAD]
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 05:31 PM |
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The cracked piece on the block looks to be only external, so I would be tempted to search out a replacement sump, and while you are sorting out the
new sump, remove the segment of broken block. Then thoroughly clean the main block area (around and on the crack surface without smoothing the rough
area) finishing with a de-greasing agent. Refit the new sump with gasket and a bolt in the remnants of the hole. The use one of the proprietry liquid
metals/resin twin packs to back fill the hole. (This should provide an adequate seal and should it ever come loose, it would be broken up within the
bell housing.)
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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SALAD
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 06:20 PM |
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Just found this, same engine, almost the same bolt hole, same problem:
http://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk/showthread.php?25065-Crack-in-engine-block-repairable
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perksy
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| posted on 1/4/11 at 07:04 PM |
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Bugger 
There's 2 different bolt lengths (and different gaskets)
Did you use the longer ones and its bottomed out in the threaded hole ? That'll crack it
The sump is worth fixing, the block may be a harder task to repair sucessfully
Just wandering if it would be possible to pin it or try some chemical metal ?
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SALAD
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 07:44 PM |
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Does anyone know if the end of the block can be removed where the large crank oil seal is housed, without having to take out the crank etc??
http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/IMG00081-20110401-1700.jpg
Would make it easier to weld if it was out the way but I'd rather avoid taking the whole bottom end appart including the ARP bolts!
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Theshed
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 08:41 PM |
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Ouch - I suggest that you get drunk. After that......Are you ever going to be happy knowing that you have that crack? The ARP bolts are generally
re-useable rather than TTY - just think what a good job you will make the second time round......
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Irony
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 09:20 PM |
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I am not an engineer nor do I know anything about welding so take my advice with a pince of salt. Is it just a bolt that holds the sump on and
nothing else? Its not structural or anything. I would be thinking of using liquid metal or some kind of pin to make sure the crack doesn't go
further and then drilling a fresh hole slightly further around the block. Then tapping a thread. Shout me down in flames if I am wrong.
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perksy
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 09:52 PM |
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Hmmm problem is the seal housing is a nice fit in the block and after the block has been welded you might have some fun getting it to fit again as its
probably going to distort
With re-using the ARP bolts, yes they can be re-used but they are supposed to be measured before you fit them
When you remove them you are supposed to measure them again and if they have stretched beyond the spec' then they aren't supposed to be
used again (think the XE ones are allowed to stretch no more that a Thou or thou and a half iirc ? )
Not saying you can't re-use them because at the end of the day its your engine and up to you
Personally, If you intend to weld the block i'd strip the bottom end and make absolutely sure everything is protected,
the thought of a bit of welding slag finding its way into the engine would give me a sleepless night
It will need heating up first to weld it anyway
Have to say i'm very impressed with ARP rod bolts, I've just had a Zetec in Bits with a Big end issue and without doubt the ARP's
saved the crank
Spoke to an engine builder and He said He hadn't seen spun big end shells where ARP's had been fitted
[Edited on 5/4/11 by perksy]
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SALAD
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| posted on 6/4/11 at 05:21 PM |
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Going to repair it and hope for the best. It is a very low mileage engine so give it a weld and see. If it dies then I will change it out later.
Not happy about it but worth attemping a fix before spending out without trying.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 8/4/11 at 07:35 AM |
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That failure won't spread, the cracks have already found the edges of the block.
If its a case of nothing to lose then I would chemical metal the piece in place after washing it all thoroughly with brake cleaner, then use loads of
loctite on the bolt and lots of sealer in that area when you fit the sump (as its an area that tends to leak on these anyway! )
The worst that will happen is an oil leak.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeCapon
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| posted on 8/4/11 at 08:30 AM |
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I would agree with the chemical metal solution but with one minor difference. If possible I would fit a short stud at the same time. This will avoid
the repaired area being unnecessarily stressed by fitting the bolt and the stud being effectively 'glued' in place can then contribute to
the strength of the repaired area.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 8/4/11 at 07:20 PM |
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I'd get my trusty MIG onto it, had quite a lot of success welding cast iron bits with it, though not structural items!
The alloy sump could also be repaired by welding.
[Edited on 8/4/11 by MikeRJ]
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stevebubs
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| posted on 12/6/11 at 06:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeCapon
I would agree with the chemical metal solution but with one minor difference. If possible I would fit a short stud at the same time. This will avoid
the repaired area being unnecessarily stressed by fitting the bolt and the stud being effectively 'glued' in place can then contribute to
the strength of the repaired area.
Braze the stud into position for strength?
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