D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:34 PM |
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I find it interesting that the neither of the two strongest advocates for the Vauxhall engine on here have even come close to recomending
it..........(is it because of the sugested budget?) which I have to admit pushes me a bit further along the R1 route.
So I guess I'll have to forget about Autotesting then 
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:36 PM |
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Come on Matt, I'm on grasstrackers side here but personally I gave up grasstracking because I got fed up off 3 x 5 lap dashes over a two day
event, yea at club events you will get more races in but be honest, do you get a full grid of class 9's at a club event ? If you naff the start
up is it game over ? If you go wide on one corner is it game over ?
The 700 cars at one event is fine but from a competitors point of view it results in the above, 3 x 5 lap dashes over a full weekend, all I was doing
was putting another point of view.........
With a bog standard bike engine and a race entry fee of around £200 I can have 2 x 15mins qualifying, 2 x 20- 30 minute races and not spend all of
next week digging mud out the car, you can do a full season (car included) on tarmac and have change from a top spec grasser engine.
Same as last post, grasstracking is a great competitor sport but only for short periods, its a shame, I think it could do with a shake up, too many
class's, class 4 & 6 for example, how many of those turn up at a M&L meeting with no national points at stake ?
Edit too add, how many class 9's scored points (regularly) in last years east mids championship, I won the east midlands open in a class nine
some years back, but only because a diary cockup meant the fast boys where chasing points elsewhere.
[Edited on 4/4/06 by Jon Ison]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:42 PM |
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If it were for a road car (like mine is) I would not hesitate to recommend it as superior to a bike engine for that purpose, but competition, as you
know only too well no doubt, needs a bit more thought.
You'll get a 200hp vauxhall engine for £1500 if you are very wise with your money, but every man and his dog has one, and you'll
effectively be in a one make challenge against other vauxhall powered cars, which to my mind won't be fun, which I would imagine is why you are
doing it!
Doing something a bit different to gain advantage has to be the way forward on that budget, and I have to agree that bike power seems the way forward,
but I would speak to some bike tuners first, I think you may find benefit in using an older bike engine for the reasons I pointed out, especially if
road use is not an issue.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
Come on Matt, I'm on grasstrackers side here but personally I gave up grasstracking because I got fed up off 3 x 5 lap dashes over a two day
event, yea at club events you will get more races in but be honest, do you get a full grid of class 9's at a club event ? If you naff the start
up is it game over ? If you go wide on one corner is it game over ?
The 700 cars at one event is fine but from a competitors point of view it results in the above, 3 x 5 lap dashes over a full weekend, all I was doing
was putting another point of view.........
With a bog standard bike engine and a race entry fee of around £200 I can have 2 x 15mins qualifying, 2 x 20- 30 minute races and not spend all of
next week digging mud out the car, you can do a full season (car included) on tarmac and have change from a top spec grasser engine.
Same as last post, grasstracking is a great competitor sport but only for short periods, its a shame, I think it could do with a shake up, too many
class's, class 4 & 6 for example, how many of those turn up at a M&L meeting with no national points at stake ?
Edit too add, how many class 9's scored points (regularly) in last years east mids championship, I won the east midlands open in a class nine
some years back, but only because a diary cockup meant the fast boys where chasing points elsewhere.
[Edited on 4/4/06 by Jon Ison]
yea, some fair points. It wasn't one meeting that I won though, I did win 5 overall that season, including beating a class 9 that finished 3rd
at the nationals, so not too bad.
Yes, digging crap out of the car is not fun, but then nor is turning up at an event with the flu when it's peeing down with rain because you
spent £200 on an entry.
Bear in mind I started off in rallying and moved to autograss from that..........they say the converts are the worst!
yes, the waiting at big events is annoying when the minis are running, as they are dull to watch unless your offspring are competing, but that's
just it, I grin and bear it as I know that a lot of those drivers are the future of the higher classes. It also gives plenty of time for a barbeque, a
few beers (after racing of course) and a jolly good party.
I'd like to do some circuit racing but the rules are too restricitve for my liking, and on my budget I would not even be able to do a full
season, let alone finish in the results, whereas in grassing at least I have a shelf full of silver shiny things that make it all worthwhile.
Edit to add, yep, agree on the class 4 and 6's........bit strange those, certainly not my bag, never quite worked out why they are run, class 4
looks like a recipe for very expensive engines and class 6 for power steering and overdeveloped forearms!
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 03:02 PM |
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Not knocking your results, i tried and failed where you succeeded, was trying like I said too give a broader picture, there's no fun
scrutineering at 8am, qualifying at 9am then racing at 4pm either, was gonna say the grass ain't always greener, but you don't race on
grass do you ???.......
Cut the class's down too segto style, be much better. oh shelf full off shiny things, got just shy off two hundred here, apart from 1 tarmac, 1
fishing, 2 golf, and a dozen or so banger racing they all came covered in grass.
Enjoy but peek over the rose tinted muddy specs of yours from time too time.
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ned
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 03:08 PM |
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ok then, i'll recommend the vauxhall - you may get beaten by a more powerful one, but then if you go bike engine there'll always be
someone there with a big money (read power!) hyabusa to beat you there as well.
if you want to be competitive as you put it then i guess we are trying to think outside the box to try and get the best bhp per pound!
what about a v6? if its possible to use the standard fuel/inlet system (unlikely i know) you might just have enough money to get the exhaust made for
a 2.5/3ltr gm/ford/pug/alfa v6 and they should all make 200bhp+ with a load of torque and you choose wisely you could have an ally one that
wouldn't be much heavier (ancillaries excluded) than a cast iron 4 pot (ie vauxhall/zetec)
Ned.
ps or get creative with individual bike throttle bodies and megasquirt! to keep the costs within budget
[Edited on 4/4/06 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 03:11 PM |
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bloody hell, got some catching up to do on the grassy shiny things then!!
Well done mate, thats not a bad collection!
Will try to look over me rosy specs now and again!
I do have other interests, looks like I am now spannering for a team racing a Radical SR3 in Britsports this year, but I am struggling for time in
between other projects. Be nice to really get me teeth into one of these bikey devices and see what makes em tick though. Got a powertec 1500 busa in
it at the mo, blew one up the other week but it went straight back to powertec so I never got the chance for a nosey inside it!
I'd like to try and get out to see some of the BEC and locost racing this year as well, will you be out later this year Jon?
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 03:20 PM |
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some pre historic grass track piccys for you.....
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 03:23 PM |
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heh heh, cool! Wonder what the cars will look like in 15-20 years time??
ps lots of grassy shiny things, nice one!
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 03:41 PM |
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Whatever engine you use though Ned, odds on there will be someone with a more powerful, more expensive one that may or may not be playing to the rules
as you read them - and if you've got the best engine someone will have better set up suspension/better gear ratios/has spent the previous week
doing nothing but testing at that track or course That's just the way motorsport is! been there, done that, brought home the t shirt!
Perhaps I shouldn't have said competitive! NS Dev made a great point when he mentioned how widespread XEs are in 7s and how you'd
probably end up in an unofficial one make class - which is something I'd not considered and don't realy want for the reasons I've
just mentioned. I'd rather know why everyones p*ssing off into the middle distance ie their different engine, rather than endlessly wondering
how people have 'modified' the same engine, which is what tends to happen in Locost racing just for example. Actualy that's a good
reason not to use an R1 engine as well, b*ll*cks! 
I'll be building up a crossflow in a minute if I'm not carefull (joke )
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Hellfire
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 04:15 PM |
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Gotta be the ZX12R.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 04:22 PM |
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2nd vote for one of them - but with a ZX12R you'll end up in the same class as the big money Hayabussa engines whatever you do and that's
going to get a little tiresome quite quickly I would have thought!
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Pezza
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 04:25 PM |
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Whatever engine choice you go for, it's all relative to driver ability.
I've seen weaker cars spank far more powerful class cars round the track because the driver has got more balls and ability.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 04:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
2nd vote for one of them - but with a ZX12R you'll end up in the same class as the big money Hayabussa engines whatever you do and that's
going to get a little tiresome quite quickly I would have thought!
Not if you run in a class where no mods are allowed, ZX12 is up there with the busa in these class's. Stock 919fireblade, class c rgb for
peanuts, relatively speaking that is.
No matter where you are in the field you will have close racing with someone, like you said earlier you ain't gonna win on that budget but you
can have your own close races with people running the same as you,
As for balls and ability, well i would agree with the ability bit but balls usually = a big off.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 05:19 PM |
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a second vote for the ability bit. I see a lot of supoosedly inferior cars doing a lot of winning due to consistent, tidy and extremely skillful
driving.
(sadly never mine!!!)
The joy of winning on a low budget is never to be underestimated!!!
The shame of running at the back on a big budget is a horrible feeling that fortunately few or none of us on here have to worry about!!
PS meant to say earlier that Ned's mazda rotary idea "could" be a good one depending on how the rule makers feel about how many
cc's it is!!!
Still tricky on that budget. modifying them is all about knowledge of how to port them but the seal kits to keep them together at high revs are NOT
cheap!
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Johnmor
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 05:21 PM |
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Alfa v6
If its bang for buck then I would second the Alfa V6.
Paid £40 for an entire car and the engine is sweet, good oil pressure, free revving, all alloy, 130kgs, 190bhp, 190lbs torque. and that just the
12v
No carbs to worry about or messing to do, just clean it up and fit it in.
[img][/img]
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 05:34 PM |
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That alfa looks the biz
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 05:47 PM |
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of course you could EAAASSSILLY do that with a volvo engine and box !!
2.3 + RWD gearbox 190hp 200 ft lbs of torque - the whole car for about £350 on ebay . chip , 3 inch exhaust , upgrade turbo if you want (about 250
hp) at this level and no headgasket problems on 16-18 psi .
only downside is intercooler piping and associated heat problems .
now ive got mine over to RHSC work might start in earnest soon !!!!
in fact an early 740 turbo for about £150 - pre 90 (no cat) will leave loads of capital for plumbing and intercooler and t go to 250 hp , on pretty
std everything .
my 2p worth
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Tim 45
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 06:35 PM |
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What about:
A 2.0 duratec from a rear end crashed mondeo...£800
A type 9 bellhousing...£350
Throttle bodies off ebay, or bike bodies....£200
Megasquirt....£150
Hey presto 200bhp for £1500!! Lighter than a vauxhall (90kg) but would pack a powerful punch at events.
See
here
for cheap 233bhp engine
[Edited on 4/4/06 by Tim 45]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 06:50 PM |
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As Jon mentioned, the beauty with the RGB is that the bike engines have to be standard, so you can literally raid the scrappy on a Friday and be
competitive (power wise at least) on a Saturday. Most if not all the car based race series I can think of allow a degree of modification which will
always severely limit your competitiveness on your £1500 budget.
As others have said, a ZX12 for £1500 would be a competitive class A engine, a £1k R1 engine in Class B or a £700 blade for class C, all straight out
the box within a couple of bhp of the big spenders who insist on blueprinting their engines to get the very most out of the regs.
Going for the oddball engine has its merits, but a lot of the time they don't fit in within the regs, or if they did and gave an advantage,
everyone would be using them
Chris
[Edited on 4/4/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 06:52 PM |
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spot on chris, and what a trackday car, if you want too overtake 99.9% of cars on track do a track day in a BEC.
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