ditchlewis
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:02 AM |
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Help it wont start.. slow turnover
Hi Guys
After many months I’ve still got problems starting the car.
The symptoms are a slow turn over, just as if the battery is in its last legs. This does not improve when I try and jump start it from another car.
I have replaced the battery (and ensured it is fully charged), replaced the live lead to the starter motor, added an earth lead to the starter motor
(I now have 3 earth leads on the engine).
The starter motor is from a 1.6 pinto but I am trying to start a new high compression 2.1 pinto. Is there a difference in the starter motor power
outputs from the 1.6 to the 2.0 ltr ?
Is the starter motor I’m using man enough for the job?
Last summer I bump started the car and had it running, I set the timing so I know that it is not 90 degrees out, and it ran well, therefore it’s got
to have something to do with the starter motor or the ignition system.
Your advice is required urgently as I do not feel that I can apply for the SVA until I have a car that starts reliably and other than setting the head
lights and the tracking that is all that I have left to do.
Regards
Ditch
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:10 AM |
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Ditch,
Have you tried spinning it over with the plugs out? In this condition the engine should whizz around, about 2 or 3 times normal cranking speed.
If it's still sluggish then you may well have a mechanical problem. If it does whizz around then there's a problem turning against the
compression - could be timing. Have you tried putting the dizzy at around 5 degrees BTDC? This is not the correct setting, but should theoretically
make starting easier.
David
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miegru
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:11 AM |
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Cannot answer your question on starters; try BurtonPower. They'll know.
Is is possible for you to try an bumpstart the car again? If it starts like that you know it's the starter. If not; it's likely to be
something else.
Did you test the spark? (simple way is to take one out, clamp it to the bloc and start the engine. You should see a spark.
I have never heard of it with original ecu's but aftermarket ecu sometimes cannot handle the drop in voltage when starting. Usually this is down
to earthing of the ecu. With my car i fixed the non starting issue with a dedicated earth between negative pole of the battery and the earth
connection of the ecu.
Good luck with this; know from experience how frustrating it can be!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:13 AM |
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Didn't the racers of old have problems turning their engines over and had to use bigger/different starters? I'm sure I remember reading
about 24V starters before. IIRC it was because the starter was on it's limits on a normal engine and would really struggle with high comp
ratios.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:21 AM |
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Burton's do sell a geared starter - not cheap (~£200) and might be difficult to fit in a Locost...
Ditch - do you have a timing light? If not, I could bring mine over - we could bump-start it and check that it's OK.
David
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02GF74
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:34 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ditchlewis
The starter motor is from a 1.6 pinto but I am trying to start a new high compression 2.1 pinto.
Is the starter motor I’m using man enough for the job?
the jumpo in capacity is 31 % increase; then there is the CR inscrease; all of this is working against you.
if such a thing as a 2.0 l start motor exists, then try that.
also assume newly reconned engine that is going to be a bit tighter than an old one.
could be the starter is worn.
remove plugs and whizz it over on the battery as ^^^^ said.
the fact that sticking on an extra battery and it is still lsuggish kinda points at the starter;
any chance it is a bad solenoid that is limiting current? if you a brave, you can put jump leads directly on the starter 
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:42 AM |
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I think you have answered this one yourself...
quote:
The starter motor is from a 1.6 pinto but I am trying to start a new high compression 2.1 pinto. Is there a difference in the starter motor power
outputs from the 1.6 to the 2.0 ltr ?
quote:
This engine is going to need a good starter motor...
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Peteff
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 09:43 AM |
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Diesel starter motors are higher output, not sure if they'll fit your application though.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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RazMan
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 11:14 AM |
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It might be a loose or dirty connection on the starter motor, earth or battery.
Try running a jump lead direct from battery to starter and see if it spins up better.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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MikeR
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 11:32 AM |
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this never happened to me, honest.
Have you got the fan belt too tight?
I had mine really tight and .... the starter couldn't turn the engine over fast enough. Took the belt off and wooohooo.
(ok, the alternator was also a bit knackered which didn't help).
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bob
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 11:47 AM |
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You might be on the wrong compression stroke, i mean your number one pot TDC might seem right but if you take the dizzy cap off and spin it rround to
TDC again you will see the rotor will not be where it should.
I'm not the best at explaining this but i did make this mistake myself,once i had moved the number 1 cyl to TDC on the next stroke and spun the
dizzy round 180degs it spun up and fired up 1st time.
EDIT
Just realised after re reading the 1st post that the engine has run so my idea is for the toilet, sorry about that.
[Edited on 6/3/07 by bob]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 01:00 PM |
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sounds like loose earth strap to me, make sure its really tight
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 01:56 PM |
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He's got 3 earth straps! One of them should be tight enough!
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 02:07 PM |
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Just a thought - is the 2.0L Pinto starter the same configuration as the 1.6L? Things like pinion teeth, clearances, etc.?
Another thought - do you know whether the starter's in good condition? If the brushes are a bit iffy they may spin the motor under no load, but
struggle under high current.
I'd still suggest spinning the engine over with the plugs out (disconnect the coil!) - if it still struggles then I'd try taking the motor
off the engine and spin it over straight off the battery, using a pair of jump-leads. Clamp the motor in a workmate or something, as the motor will
go ballistic if left loose!
David
[Edited on 6/3/07 by David Jenkins]
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flak monkey
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 02:17 PM |
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Its more than likely the amount of advance you are running at idle.
I would guess you are on about 14-16BTDC depending on the cam. This makes the engine 'kick back' on the starter quite a bit. I know with
mine set at 14deg the engine nearly stops just before it fires. You really probably need a higher torque starter motor for your application. People
like burtons sell them.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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ditchlewis
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 02:30 PM |
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Many thanks Lads
A lot of good ideas.
The one about the fan belt being to tight is one I’ve not heard before and I will loosen it off and see if that helps. It is very tight and the
alternator is from the donor.
The next one I will try is removing the plugs and seeing if it cranks over any faster. That will give me further clues.
I’ve had the car running and has never failed to start when bumped, so I know its not the timing, (that was set by my brother in law, who works for
Ferrari and knows the inner workings of a 512BB flat 12 boxer and its gearbox therefore a mere pinto should be no problem). Once running the car goes
very well, it is just getting it running that is the problem. But as the car has not been run for a few months I will get the boys out this weekend
and get them to give me a push… just to check.
The starter motor I’m using is from the donor which had 120K on the clock so it will be tired. I did buy a replacement starter motor (a recon) that
some monkey has sprayed when finished and had paint over all the contacts, and may be inside. After cleaning the contacts I put that on it was dead so
it may have paint inside. I think I will have another look at it tonight, whilst the wife’s at work. If it is useless I suppose I should take it back
to the motor factors if I can find the receipt.
David, do you still have the same mobile as before? if so I will give you a call, I’ve moved close to the garden centre.
Many thanks for the info and I will try all the suggestions.
Ditch
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 02:39 PM |
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I bought a reconditioned replacement starter for my x-flow from a place on the Boss Hall estate (Unipart?). Not a stupid price, considering. You
might find that a Pinto starter won't be too expensive either - they may want the old one in exchange.
You also have a U2U!
David
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gazza285
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 03:06 PM |
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For your information the 1.6 and 2.0 starter motors are the same. I seem to recall that the Cosworth starters were higher torque, which always baffled
me as this engine had a lower compression ratio compared to a Pinto.
DO NOT PUT ON KNOB OR BOLLOCKS!
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Dusty
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 03:25 PM |
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A good 1600 starter should start it OK. Sounds like over advanced ignition. To confirm just pull the LT leads off the coil and try it on the starter.
If it turns at normal starter/engine revs then that confirms excessive static advance. If it's still slow then duff starter or voltage drop in
the starter circuit (or siezed engine/in gear/lost spanner in a cylinder/blancmange in the sump etc)
If you take the plugs out - no compression surely even the most pathetic starter will twirl the engine round quite happily.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 04:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
If you take the plugs out - no compression surely even the most pathetic starter will twirl the engine round quite happily.
That test would at least show if the starter was binding, or some other mechanical problem.
Attempting to start with the coil disconnected would perhaps rule out over-advancement, but would also pump fuel into the cylinders - good for a very
short test, but I wouldn't want to do it for more than a few seconds.
And don't forget that this engine has run successfully, when bump started, so it's unlikely to be far wrong - I wouldn't like to try
bumping an over-advanced engine into life!
[Edited on 6/3/07 by David Jenkins]
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scotlad
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 04:20 PM |
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try the starter motor across a battery and make sure its free. i've had lots of bother with seizing starter motor on an old pinto robin hood-
same symptoms as you. Took it off, put over battery and put 3 in one oil in every orrifice of the motor. It freed off in almost no time 
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flak monkey
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 05:39 PM |
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The thing is it doesnt need to be 'over advanced' for it to slow the starter down. Its a known issue with pintos, which like 14-16deg
static advance on a mild>fast road cam. That much static advance will slow down the starter when its trying to crank. The std advance for a pinto
is about 8deg i think. So doubling it is going to put a fair bit of extra strain on the starter.
Like I said, mines set at about 14deg, and sometimes it nearly stops before it fires. Runs perfectly once its going though.
The other suggestions are all valid of course, but my money is on the advance making it kick back and slow the starter down.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 6/3/07 at 06:05 PM |
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The starter for an auto version has moer power , some race cars used to use them if they had high CRs . Puts the solonoid in a slightly different
position but not hard to overcome HTH
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