bhp
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 08:52 AM |
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Westfield diesel ? advice
Hi, I"m looking at putting a vag PD engine into a narrow bodied westfield. Have many people done a tdi kit car? and are they good news or
not?
A PD engine with software will produce around 200 hp with shed loads of torque so should go like stink in a light westy.
Also what gear box would be best to mate it to and who would do adapter plates etc? It currently has a Quaife type 9 box in..
Any input welcome cheers james
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Davey D
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:11 AM |
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Just a thought... would a shed load of low down torque, and a low rev range be a good thing in a lightweight sports car? i would have thought it would
be trying to catch you out all the time. especially if the road surface is damp, or loose
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Irony
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:16 AM |
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I think this is a good idea because I own a PD 150bhp golf and the engine is awesome. Goes like stink and does 55mpg. However the traction control
on my Golf kicks in all the time if you boot it. It'll kick in at 35mph if its a bit damp out.
Sounds like a tractor as well.
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snapper
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:16 AM |
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Torque is fine it's the delivery of it that can cause problems, perhaps boost limiting in the lower gears.
Quaife type 9 should be ok
Diff ratio will need to be higher as revs run out at 4,500 you need to run a gear ratio program to work out the best combination of gears, diff, tyres
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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Agriv8
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:19 AM |
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was there not a PPC Mareg feature on this
regards
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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FASTdan
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:24 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bhp
are they good news or not?
not 
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Daddylonglegs
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:29 AM |
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I tend to agree with Davey D and Snapper, and Irony says that the traction control kicks in at around 35mph on a wet day. Bear in mind the weight
difference, a Golf probably weighs in at around 1.25 tonnes so on a Westy? 
Just my twopence worth 
[Edited on 6/7/11 by Daddylonglegs]
It looks like the Midget is winning at the moment......
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mcerd1
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Agriv8
was there not a PPC Mareg feature on this
yeah he used a supra box with an adapter kit from the states if I remember right
-
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whitestu
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:42 AM |
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Personally I think a diesel is totally wrong in a car like this, though I´m not a diesel fan generally unless in a van.
Stu
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Irony
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 09:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
Personally I think a diesel is totally wrong in a car like this, though I´m not a diesel fan generally unless in a van.
Stu
I disagree. I think that in the future more and more kitcars will be oil burners! With the fuel prices still soaring I think we'll start to
people building cars for a economical commuter/fun car. Just look at the 'budget' kits you can buy these days. How long before a kitcar
manufacturer starts using a diesel to promote budget build costs and budget running costs? Just bring your ear defenders.
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whitestu
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:23 AM |
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quote:
I disagree. I think that in the future more and more kitcars will be oil burners! With the fuel prices still soaring I think we'll start to
people building cars for a economical commuter/fun car. Just look at the 'budget' kits you can buy these days. How long before a kitcar
manufacturer starts using a diesel to promote budget build costs and budget running costs? Just bring your ear defenders.
You may well be right - I just like engines that rev a bit.
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FASTdan
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:28 AM |
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Depends on your outlook on these things. I drive a diesel daily and whilst its a 'sporty diesel' it still bores the hell out of me,
therefore whatever I drive at the weekend needs to be fun - couldnt care less about the cost of running it.
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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wylliezx9r
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:29 AM |
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How many people do you know who build a kit car for econonmy and commuting ? I personally dont know of any. The original 7 was all about low weight
coupled with modest power for a great driving experience, I cant imagine a VW derv burner clattering in the front end delivering that. I am not
against diesel power, I own an A3 2.0 tdi but i cnat imagine ever putting that engine in a 7, its just plain wrong. Of course all of this is just my
own opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Irony
quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
Personally I think a diesel is totally wrong in a car like this, though I´m not a diesel fan generally unless in a van.
Stu
I disagree. I think that in the future more and more kitcars will be oil burners! With the fuel prices still soaring I think we'll start to
people building cars for a economical commuter/fun car. Just look at the 'budget' kits you can buy these days. How long before a kitcar
manufacturer starts using a diesel to promote budget build costs and budget running costs? Just bring your ear defenders.
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
George Best
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blakep82
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:30 AM |
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is it wrong to put a diesel in a racing car then, for example?
________________________
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wylliezx9r
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:34 AM |
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I think that diesel engines in race cars has got a lot to do with marketing as much as anything else, although a racing diese engine does offer
"slightly" better fuel economy.
Given the choice I prefer the sniff of petrol any day.
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
George Best
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blakep82
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:38 AM |
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may well be marketing, but they've winning races too. 15 years ago, yeah, diesels were noisy, smoky, and underpowered for cars, these days i
don't think there's anything in it. they're not even that noisy anymore.
i certainly wouldn't say its 'wrong' its an interesting choice, and good to see people breaking away from the usual
________________________
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don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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ashg
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:44 AM |
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if its geared properly why should the torque output of the engine be a problem?
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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hughpinder
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:53 AM |
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Personally I'd prefer something a bit more revvy, but I have seen a couple of diesel 7s for sale over the years. I do wonder , like some others,
if the torque delivery will mean the wheels spin a lot.
Do you know how much the engine weighs? Might affect the balance of the car.
Although the engine block isn't that big, I wonder about the packaging of the turbo/intercooler/Cat etc in the narrow bodied westfield.
Will the ECU work without all the emissions guff, or would you transfer that too? Can it be reprogrammed to get rid of all that stuff, or is there a
3rd party reprogrammable one available?
If you havent measured one, it might be a good idea to find the weight/height/width etc beore going any further.
Regards
Hugh
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:55 AM |
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A couple of points.
The original 7 had a Ford sidevalve engine, among others of the time. These not so little engines probably did fewer revs than the vw diesel, and
weighed as much or more, and out out 1/3 of the power. With that comparison, the modern diesel is a major upgrade. Try picking up the flywheel off a
Ford sidevalve. You'll need a hernia brace!
Diesel racecars exploit a couple of rule loopholes which give them a significant advantage when given shedloads of boost, and maybe not so much boost
with the modern engines. The diesel gets its economy from being a lean burn engine by nature and design, and gets its power/torque from very high
compression(compared to petrol) and long stroke(relatively), and a higher calorific value fuel. All adds up to a big plus when given extra oomph with
boost. It is significant that BTCC diesels are now being reigned back with reduced boost limits.
Would I put a modern diesel in a racecar? No, they just sound wrong. You can't beat a big V8 at full song for sound, or a BDA!
Cheers,
Nev.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 10:59 AM |
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Its not the torque it is the delivery that is the problem.
In a heavy tin top a 140 bhp petrol and a 140bhp turbo diesel will give roughly the same performance -- the diesel probably more useful for 40 to
70 overtaking.
But put them in a very light sports car and a free revving petrol engine will win hands down.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Irony
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 11:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Its not the torque it is the delivery that is the problem.
In a heavy tin top a 140 bhp petrol and a 140bhp turbo diesel will give roughly the same performance -- the diesel probably more useful for 40 to
70 overtaking.
But put them in a very light sports car and a free revving petrol engine will win hands down.
Why?
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MikeCapon
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 11:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Irony
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Its not the torque it is the delivery that is the problem.
In a heavy tin top a 140 bhp petrol and a 140bhp turbo diesel will give roughly the same performance -- the diesel probably more useful for 40 to
70 overtaking.
But put them in a very light sports car and a free revving petrol engine will win hands down.
Why?
+1
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dlatch
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 11:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Why?
because you don't need huge torque to move a light weight kitcar 
the theory on this is already proven by how effective BEC powered kits are on the performance stakes. to make use of the diesel powerband you would
need it geared right up so you pull longer gears making use of the torque.
i love diesels for tintops and vans the powerband is perfect for road driving while still getting great mpg.
i would also say even though a tdi kitcar is possibly pointless thats no reason not to do it
on track and upto speed it would have great performance if you can get the ratios right. i do suspect the torque to kill any of the old ford running
gear though (T9 and english axle)
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PeteS2k
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 11:15 AM |
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I like revvy engines, but I can also see the appeal of torque from low revs. The engine in my Rush (Honda F20C) really starts to pick up when a lot of
other 2.0l engines would start bumping the red-line. Can't see the appeal of these low-revving Zetecs or Vauxhalls... (It's all
relative)
However, there is a certain appeal riding in a low-revving (to me, at any rate!), high torque, V8 powered 7. Put your foot down in any gear and it
just pulls like a train! My Astra CDTI does pretty well on that score, too.
I like the idea of trying anything unusual - surely one of the appealing things about building your own car. I think the main down-side would be the
noise - diesels just don't tend to sound exciting, and maybe the smoke when booting it. Perhaps you could reduce the latter with some clever
mapping...
In terms of gearing, perhaps there may be some lessons to be picked up from those running V8s in 7s. There's a good number in the Dax Rush
community, for starters.
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Irony
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 11:17 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dlatch
because you don't need huge torque to move a light weight kitcar
the theory on this is already proven by how effective BEC powered kits are on the performance stakes. to make use of the diesel powerband you would
need it geared right up so you pull longer gears making use of the torque.
i love diesels for tintops and vans the powerband is perfect for road driving while still getting great mpg.
i would also say even though a tdi kitcar is possibly pointless thats no reason not to do it
on track and upto speed it would have great performance if you can get the ratios right. i do suspect the torque to kill any of the old ford running
gear though (T9 and english axle)
When you put it like that I am convinced. We have all seen how effective BECs are.
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