smart51
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| posted on 10/12/05 at 05:36 PM |
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heater plumbing problem
I've just plummed in a heater to my vortx. The problem is that it doesn't warm up for ages, well after the rest of the cooland system and
after the rad is so hot that the fan cuts in.
I have teed off a 15mm hose from the 28mm copper pipe between the engine outlet and the rad and fed that through a valve (which was fully open) into
the heater. The return from the heater tees into a similar pipe between the rad and the engine.
The pipes to the heater are 1.5m long and by putting your hand on the pipe you can see how far the hot water has traveled.
I loosened the hose clip going into the heater and water started to drip out before it got too loose.
Have I done it wrong? Is there an auxilliary water pump that can help it along?
I was worried that I'd be short circuiting the rad and so overheating the engine. Needn't have worried.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 10/12/05 at 05:47 PM |
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Sounds like the hose you tee'd of off is only used when the engine is upto temperature and the thermostat has opened.
So you need to find an outlet thats pre-thermostat and therefore the same temperature as the engine.
[Edited on 10/12/05 by MkIndy7]
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smart51
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| posted on 10/12/05 at 06:00 PM |
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The hose is after the thermostat but so is the rad and the header tank, both get scalding hot before the heater even starts to get warm.
The R1 has two outlets, both of which go into the thermostat with very short hoses each having a different diameter at each end. I'd have to
get a custom made hose to run the heater off one of the outlets.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 10/12/05 at 06:10 PM |
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Could it be airlocked then?
Is there actually water in the heter matrix?
Or it could just be "pushing past" where you've tee'd in, could you try re-aranging the tee so the heater would be in the
through direction and the radiator coming off the branch?
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smart51
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| posted on 10/12/05 at 07:43 PM |
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I poured water into the pipes to the heater before connecting them to the rest of the plumbing. I can't guarentee that there's no air in
there but there is water.
Perhaps it is bypassing the tee. I'll look at it again tomorrow when it's light.
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caber
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| posted on 10/12/05 at 09:52 PM |
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The water is taking line of least resistance i.e. the rad. There should be a take off or a place to make one on the engine side of the thermostat so
that there is sufficient resistance to push water down the narrow tubes and small flow heater matrix. Sounds like you could "t" into the
pipe from block to thermostat. Make sure it is on the flow side of the pump, you can probably leave your return where it is.
Best of luck
Caber
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smart51
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| posted on 11/12/05 at 06:46 PM |
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I've put a tee in between the engine and the thermostat. There was just enough room. The heater warms up much faster now. Great advice. I
bet having 3/4 m less pipe helps a bit as well. I must wire up the fan and switch now.
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quattromike
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| posted on 11/12/05 at 09:56 PM |
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would it not be better rather than puting a tee in to just divert the flow alltogether to make it go in the heater matrix an not just hope it does?
(forgive the fag packet drawing I just rustled it up)
like this:
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smart51
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| posted on 12/12/05 at 08:07 AM |
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that would mean that all the hot water would go through the heater. I'd have to have the heater valve turned all the way to hot all the time.
OK in the winter perhaps but not so good when it's hot.
The flow through the heater may not be enough when pushing the engine hard either.
I'll see how it goes as it is. If it's OK then I'll leave it.
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Peteff
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| posted on 12/12/05 at 10:21 AM |
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Don't use a valve on the pipe, put a flap over the heater that will open and close to stop the heat coming into the cockpit. The last car I had
that used a valve was a Mini and it stuck every time you shut it.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 12/12/05 at 05:57 PM |
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Or vary the fan speed, to control the heat given off.
(although some air will probably be forced through the heater anyway)
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smart51
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| posted on 13/12/05 at 09:39 PM |
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I've had another go at bleeding the heater pipes althoug its a bit difficult as the heater is stuffed up under the dash. The heat still takes
ages to flow along the pipes.
The start of the pipe gets hot very quickly, before the thermostat opens but teh heat only runs up the pipe at an inch a minute, or so it seems. even
when the heat gets as far as the heater, the air flow out of the pipes is only warm.
Is the problem likely to be an air lock or just poor flow?
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 13/12/05 at 09:49 PM |
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Don't suppose you could disconnect the heater end, or even where it returns to the system from the heater and see if there's good flow,
or put a section of clear hose so you can maybe see whats going on to try and troubleshoot the problem.
Either due to poor flow or an airlock the heat getting through sounds like its purely from conduction.
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smart51
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| posted on 14/12/05 at 09:16 PM |
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Pulled the pipe today and there was very little flow, maybe a litre per minute. Blip the throttle and it gushed out. I never though of that, the
pump speed is of course related to the engine speed.
A few revs and it heated up much more quickly. The air still didn't get hot. I'm going out in it tomorrow to have it inspected by the
DVLA. We'll see what it's like then. I kind of get the impression that its effect will be kind of lost in an open car.
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smart51
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| posted on 15/12/05 at 02:56 PM |
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I went to the DVLA inspecton today a nice 15 mile each way trip. The heater has as much effect as a fart in a hurricane. If you put your hand in
front of the air pipe then you can feel "warm" air. Put your hand into the footwell and it isn't as cold as outside. Otherwise you
can't feel it and it might as well not be there.
What can I do to improve it?
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jack trolley
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| posted on 15/12/05 at 05:10 PM |
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Are you sure your heater fan is working?
Is it wired up backwards (sucking not blowing)? 
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 15/12/05 at 05:58 PM |
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Sounds like it could be down to poor water curculation? Was it a new heater? Would it be worth trying an electric pump just to ciculate the water
through the heater , believe Renault 19. 16valve had one amongst other cars?
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smart51
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| posted on 15/12/05 at 06:51 PM |
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The fan works on all 3 speeds and does blow air out of the tubes, although it doesn't blow too fast, even at the highest speed.
The heater is new from the stonleigh show earler in the year.
What other cars have an electric water pump? New ones are a bit pricey.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 15/12/05 at 07:04 PM |
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I dont mean the main water pump as i said earlier renault 19 16valve engines have a small electric water pump which I believe just curculates the
water after the engine is turned off It MAY be just what you need to pump hot water through heater? Could be wired in via a relay to blower switch?
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 15/12/05 at 07:18 PM |
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maybe you need to restrict the outlets, are they just the ducted air pipes you've used or are you using the grilles as well.
Makeing it a narrower more powerful "jet" of air may have more effect than a wider breeze or hot air being emitted from the heater.
If the return pipe is massively colder than the inlet pipe then the heater matrix is giving all it can get, otherwise its something else making it
appear cold.
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smart51
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| posted on 16/12/05 at 10:46 AM |
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I checked the heater again this morning. It does blow and not suck and the pipes to and from the heater get warm quickly enough, with a few revs.
The outlet pipe is just as hot as the inlet so I'm guessing that the airflow across the matrix just isnt taking as much heat out of the water as
I'd like. I guess that the heater is just not up to the job.
For those who are interested, it is the heater sold by Tifosi. I wanted on that wasn't too large as I haven't much space to install it.
I also didn't want a dozen outlets as I don't need them. It seemed ideal.
Would any other heater be any better or are they all a wast of space in an open car?
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RazMan
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| posted on 16/12/05 at 08:35 PM |
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I've just bought the CBS one which looks ideal for the job at 4.5kW. Three speed fan and it just needs two 15mm pipes plumbed in and a choice of
vents to screen and/or cabin.
I can't vouch for its performance yet though, but it appears to be well mad and very compact.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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RazMan
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| posted on 16/12/05 at 08:36 PM |
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This one ...
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 17/12/05 at 09:53 AM |
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We've never actually tried it yet, but we intended on using a very small rad, probably an oil cooler that we scourced from the local
scrapyard.
Not sure how they compare but i'm sure in industrial applications, cooling coils are more effective per cm2 and cost alot more than heating
coils. I think heat is naturally helped into a room whereas its much harder to get a room cooler so the coils have to be better.
Maybe they'd work the other way round? might be worth a try.
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smart51
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| posted on 17/12/05 at 02:45 PM |
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I've been starting to think about that myself. When setting the emissions, working under the bonnet, whenever the main rad fan comes on there
is a huge warm draft that goes through the engine bay. That's what I want from a heater.
I reckon I can get a rad of about 350 x 200 mm under the scuttle. what cars / bikes have a rad that size that I could get hold of?
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