MikeR
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| posted on 31/1/13 at 10:21 PM |
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Just spent the last 15 minutes searching, the best thread i could find is here. Look for Mad Dave's post.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=69821
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yellowcab
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| posted on 31/1/13 at 11:20 PM |
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Tim - thanks for the response, however if I have you wrong, how could you initial quick witted reply have helped me?
Without me confronting the situation, I wouldn't have got the more helpful replies that the others have so kindly shared their advice.
I am on here trying to learn, not to be left guessing the rest of your post. How much harder would it have been for you to explain why the pickup
points are wrong, or how they're wrong, or how I can get best use out of these rear arms that I've just bought.
See what I mean? This is a car forum no, interaction... community... helping others? Ahhh whatever.
Mike - cheers for taking the time to find the post, I've found it extremely helpful
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Dave
The top wishbone bracket is a little high therefore when the suspension compresses from max extension, initially the wheel goes into positive camber
but returns to negative when compressed further. The can be observed if you jack the car up and remove the shock. But, when the car is sat at ride
height the movement of the geometry is such that it will provide negative camber for the remaining travel. Obviously, going round a corner the body
will roll so you will see positive camber while stood track side. This is why some track cars run approx 3 degrees of negative camber to allow for
this. It’s not wise to have so much camber gain that the wheels are more or less 90 degrees to the road surface when cornering.
For road and track use if the car is set up as well as it can be, you should not have a problem.
The top wishbone brackets are already hanging beneath the box section that they're welded to - the only thing I can think of doing to lower them
further, is to cut them off, and weld some longer brackets on with a lower hole.
Does anyone know if there is a detrimental effect if they're lowered too much? Will I have a similar problem as I currently have with them being
too high?
[Edited on 31/1/13 by yellowcab]
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yellowcab
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| posted on 31/1/13 at 11:33 PM |
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I could drop the inboard pickups by about an inch, or however much they need...
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nick205
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 12:27 AM |
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An observation, your shocks ought to be the other way up
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Mave
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 08:09 AM |
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I solved it by bolting the outboard side of the upper wishbone to the place where the shock is bolted to the upright. I then relocated the shock to
the lower wishbone and side of the chassis.
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Oddified
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 08:38 AM |
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Alternatively it looks like you could raise the outer top arm mount to just below the shocker by a useful amount.
Ian
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 08:40 AM |
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Nick 205 is spot on the dampers do need to be reversed unless they have been re valved to work that way to help unsprung weight, your dampers would
have added to that exciting lap,it looked fun if nothing else, and at least it tested your car control.
Good luck with it I also on my outboard suspension indy i shimmed the rear when I had it flat floor set up,made a big difference,
Cheers
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yellowcab
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 11:05 AM |
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Thanks for the suggestions chaps - really helpful!
Nick205 is totally right, this is a very old photo from the day I bought the car, so I immediately turned the shocks the correct way up!
So if I mount the outboard top wishbone pickup where the bottom of the shock is currently bolted, this will give me the same effect as lowering the
inboard pickup? and will it be enough?
I presume the shock absorber itself must always remain in an upright position? (albeit leaning inwards) and can't be tilted left to right?
So moving the bottom shock pickup, would mean I also have to raise the upper shock pickup?
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yellowcab
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 11:22 AM |
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Popped down the garage just to do a Heath Robinson check to see what kinda figures it shows...
5ft fluorescent tube against tyre walls, measure between front and back of tube... forgive crappy drawing lol
Suppose 11mm over that distance isn't as much as I thought it was out, but I suppose any rear toe out is detrimental.
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TimC
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 12:30 PM |
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I really should know better than to get entangled in this but I'm prone to saying my piece so here goes...
quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
Tim - thanks for the response, however if I have you wrong, how could you initial quick witted reply have helped me?
May I refer you to the first sentence of my initial reply? I think you'll agree that it's a question appertaining to the specification of
your car. I was pretty sure that it wasn't a Indy-R but given its history ('Track Taxi' ), I don't think it was unreasonable
to wonder if it had been track optimised.
quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
Without me confronting the situation, I wouldn't have got the more helpful replies that the others have so kindly shared their advice.
Give yourself a big slap on the back. Truth be told, if you'd have answered the question then I would have tried to help when I next logged-on
to the forum. As it is, you'll have a better car at the end of this process than you otherwise might have. Proper engineering and first-hand
experience-led advice used to be more commonplace here. MikeR is one of the good guys for sure so may have intervened, however I suspect that had I
not piped-up the thread may have concluded with several comments stating how nice your, admittedly very pretty, new wishbones are.
quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
I am on here trying to learn, not to be left guessing the rest of your post. How much harder would it have been for you to explain why the pickup
points are wrong, or how they're wrong, or how I can get best use out of these rear arms that I've just bought.
I get that and actually I was a bit concerned that you had been sold the A-arms as a panacea for any geometry problems that you might have.
You'll note that you were not at all specific about what your issues were at this stage.
quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
See what I mean? This is a car forum no, interaction... community... helping others? Ahhh whatever.
I have been on this forum for approaching a decade. I've had six kit cars / projects in that period. I've often given what information,
parts and hands-on help that I can and I've received the same from others.
You're as wrong about my intentions and character as you were when you stated in the thread title that, "These [wishbones] should sort my
rear geometry out..."
[Edited on 1/2/13 by TimC]
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40inches
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 02:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
I could drop the inboard pickups by about an inch, or however much they need...
Check the post by ProComp near the bottom of this thread http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=178118
The question is: having used the dampers upside down, are they now kernacked if they are mounted the correct way?
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sebastiaan
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 03:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
Popped down the garage just to do a Heath Robinson check to see what kinda figures it shows...
5ft fluorescent tube against tyre walls, measure between front and back of tube... forgive crappy drawing lol
Suppose 11mm over that distance isn't as much as I thought it was out, but I suppose any rear toe out is detrimental.
That is almost 3mm of total toe out (assuming 15" wheels) or 0,42 degrees of total toe out. About 0,2 degrees per side. I'd say that would
royally screw things up by itself, so I would first fit the new wishbones, dial out the toe out, align the thrust line with the centre line of the
chassis and see if it has improved or not.
Remember: change one thing at a time; keep the angry grinder unplugged for now.
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yellowcab
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 03:09 PM |
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Lets not let this get out of hand Tim, we're both big enough and ugly enough to have a constructive conversation on a forum
I hadn't been sold the adjustable rear arms to prevent the problem that you speak of (as I didn't know this problem even existed lol), I
simply called Danny telling him that my rear wheels were toeing out - he explained that I can either shim the rear end, to bring them in parallel, or
buy these arms...
My previous cars have always been converted to rosejointed adjustable arms from bushes, with positive effects, so I thought I'd follow suit.
I wouldn't want you thinking that I had told Danny of my problems, and he led me down the garden path in saying that these would cure all
problems, he didn't. He merely said in order to get full adjustability of the rear suspension, that these were ideal, which is true.
I agree with you in that I hadn't told you the reason for me purchasing these arms (in the first place), as far as I was aware, toe in, toe out,
camber & castor are all apart of the word 'geometry' (along with other things), so these rear arms will aid my quest in getting my car
to drive in somewhat (hopefully) a straight line, and to go around corners better than it does currently.
I openly apologise now for my defensive demeanour, and hope we can move forward from this blip. *holds out hand*
40inches - cracking find - I may well get them checked out to see if they're performing as they should!
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yellowcab
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 03:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sebastiaan
That is almost 3mm of total toe out (assuming 15" wheels) or 0,42 degrees of total toe out. About 0,2 degrees per side. I'd say that would
royally screw things up by itself, so I would first fit the new wishbones, dial out the toe out, align the thrust line with the centre line of the
chassis and see if it has improved or not.
Remember: change one thing at a time; keep the angry grinder unplugged for now.
Cheers for the calculation, far more advanced than my
knowledge could take me - appreciate that!
You made me laugh with the angry grinder comment, I've been to hell and back already so already threatened to cut it up lol
Is there any way in particular that I can measure from the thrust line other than measuring from the original (unreliable) rivets holding on the flat
floor lol
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sebastiaan
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 03:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
Is there any way in particular that I can measure from the thrust line other than measuring from the original (unreliable) rivets holding on the flat
floor lol
Yes, there is. Use a full-scale string computer ;-)
Joking aside, there should be a string alignment thread somewhere on the forum. This:
http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_1204_determining_wheel_alignment_string_your_car/viewall.html also explains it.
make sure your wheels are straight and try to but the car on some blocks under the front wishbones so that the tires are loaded a bit less but with
the car still at normal rideheight, as this will make adjusting the tracking easier. Thinner string = better as well as it is easier to get an
accurate reading on you (preferably metal) ruler.
Hours and hours of fun!
ps: if you do this properly, you are able to get it just as good as with the expensive laser stuff. There is some basig trig involved though ;-)
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40inches
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 04:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
quote:
Originally posted by sebastiaan
That is almost 3mm of total toe out (assuming 15" wheels) or 0,42 degrees of total toe out. About 0,2 degrees per side. I'd say that would
royally screw things up by itself, so I would first fit the new wishbones, dial out the toe out, align the thrust line with the centre line of the
chassis and see if it has improved or not.
Remember: change one thing at a time; keep the angry grinder unplugged for now.
Cheers for the calculation, far more advanced than my
knowledge could take me - appreciate that!
You made me laugh with the angry grinder comment, I've been to hell and back already so already threatened to cut it up lol
Is there any way in particular that I can measure from the thrust line other than measuring from the original (unreliable) rivets holding on the flat
floor lol
Make up a String Box. Some good info HERE , start from stage 4, that will do for what you want to
find out, for the time being 
I followed the article, and it is very accurate, If you want some fluorescent heavy gauge fishing line PM me your address and I will pop some in an
envelope, I had to buy 50metres 
Ooops! not quick enough
[Edited on 1-2-13 by 40inches]
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TimC
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 05:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellowcab
I openly apologise now for my defensive demeanour, and hope we can move forward from this blip. *holds out hand*
Find me at Stoneleigh and I'll buy you a pint and we can have a laugh about forums. Cheers.
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yellowcab
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 05:11 PM |
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Guys thanks for the continued help and advice about all this... i'll u2u you my address - would really appreciate it.
Whilst its in its current condition, I may aswell do all I can to get it as good as I can - but I'm about as impatient as they get... lol
Tim - I'll hold you to that, I'll supply the peanuts x
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steve m
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 06:51 PM |
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Well, it looks as though we are all freinds again !!
My question,
why not fit a live axle ??? no toe out/toe in with mine !
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 07:04 PM |
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Does anyone know if the Indy RR suffers with this problem or has it been sorted out?
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Hellfire
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| posted on 1/2/13 at 07:12 PM |
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The Indy is the only model that suffers from this. The R's don't have this issue.
Phil
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 3/2/13 at 08:03 PM |
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Not read beyond the second page of bickering, but why do people insist on the use of rod ends in totally inappropriate orientations?
My Build Thread
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40inches
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| posted on 3/2/13 at 08:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Not read beyond the second page of bickering, but why do people insist on the use of rod ends in totally inappropriate orientations?
Nooooo not now!, I've run out of popcorn
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TimC
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| posted on 3/2/13 at 09:11 PM |
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Discussed at length here:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=161458
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phelpsa
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| posted on 3/2/13 at 09:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by TimC
Discussed at length here:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=161458
He actually contributed to that thread with a informative link to an article stating the reasons both for and against using rod ends in bending, which
he would appear to have not taken any notice of!
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
Talk about nit picking. This forum is turning into Pistonheads again!
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