samwilliams
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 09:40 AM |
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Engine running badly / Rolling road in south west
I've got a phoenix with a fairly un-tuned 1600 crossflow. Recently it's been gradually running worse and worse, but it seems to vary from
day to day. This morning, for example, it would barely accelerate past 50mph at one point. Essentially, as I tried to accelerate it sounds different
and just doesn't go. Sometimes it then decides to kick in, and will accelerate.
Does anyone have any suggestions for the best things to check with this (I know very little, so please keep it simple!). I'm almost certain that
it could do with a good tune-up from someone, so does anyone know any decent rolling roads or something within sensible distance of Bath?
Thanks
Sam
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mookaloid
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 09:55 AM |
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Could be any number of things!
you need to go through your ignition system and check all the obvious things: points, condensor, rotor arm, Dizzy cap, plug leads and plugs also
vacuum advance connection and vacuum advance itself.
You need to check your fuel system: fuel pump - particularly if it is an electric one, fuel filters if fitted, is there muck in the carb etc? water in
the fuel?
it could be sticking valves in the head or maybe something else I haven't thought of.
Does that get you something to go at? 
Cheers
Mark
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:12 AM |
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You mention that when it wouldnt go past 50 it sounded different. Im wondering if at that point it was only running on 3 cylinders???? Did it sound
more like a sewing machine then a sportscar? This might be because one cylinder wasnt getting spark for a while.
initially i would suspect ignition system. Basic things to check are as Mark describes. Ie - all connections are clean and sound. Plug leads connected
securely and none damaged. Dizzy cap, points etc all clean. I cant help thinking that you could have a loose or correded connection somewhere. Do you
have the basic points type ignition or electronic (ie is a set of points visible when you take dizzy cap off?).
At this stage i would suspect fuel to a greater extent as long as fuel pump and filters are basically OK. As you say the car might just be up for a
good tune. Basic tune up places probs wontbe much help. Rolling roads are great but expect a higher bill if they have to take time replacing basic
components that they would normally expect to be OK.
You havent had the car long and iirc you said last time it had been laid up for a while. Perhaps general corrosion on contacts is present. Earths need
to be A1. Was the car generally maintained well by last owner? Have you changed anything since getting it on the road?
Ignition timing hasnt been discussed here - that would be your next area to look at. Check the basics first though. If you are not 100% confident try
and get someone to help you. Dont strip loads of bits off at once. Id recommend one thing at a time in a logical manner.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:18 AM |
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If you're OK with Cheltenham then I can highly recommend Mech Repairs.
I've used them for years and modded many cars with them. They specialise in carb setup but also work with many low volume specialist car
manufacturers on car development.
They don't advertise and don’t work on Saturdays. They do however get very busy as the race season kicks off cus as their services are sought
after.
www.rollingroad.co.uk
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Mike R-F
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:19 AM |
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For something like this, I would check:-
1. Electrical
2. Fuel
3. Mechanical
The vast majority of engine related breakdowns or problems are electrically related. Check all the points mentioned by mookaloid plus coil. Check for
tracking if it's been really damp in your area. Also check the timeing. If everything is OK, check fuel delivery. Have you run the tank dry
recently? If you are using the original Ford carb or the popular Webber replacement, check that everything is operating as it should. If you have twin
40's or similar and you are not too confident, have them checked by someone who knows about them.
If either of the above are not the problem, it's probably mechanical, sticking valves being the most obvious but it's more than likely
electrical.
Hope this helps.
Mike
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samwilliams
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:20 AM |
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Thanks for the suggestions. Could a dodgy earth connection be the cause? It might well be at least partially linked to that, because I have had
problems with the earth before. At the moment, the earth connection from the battery doesn't seem to be wonderful. Someone suggested possibly
putting a second earth connection from it to the engine block. Might this be a good idea? What would be the best way of getting two wires running off
the negative terminal of the battery?
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:32 AM |
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One other thing to check , make sure the auto advance weights in distributor are not partially siezed , take off baseplate and lubricate cam and
weight pivot points. Fairly common problem on engines that have stood unused for a while
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mookaloid
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:34 AM |
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I would have thought that it would be better to make sure that the existing earths work properly. If you put a second earth cable to the engine from
the battery, but the other one is dodgy you will still get odd problems.
So replace them all and clean the contact areas including the engine to chassis lead if you have to, but get those working ok first.
Cheers
mark
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 10:57 AM |
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Sam, Good earths are one of the main prerequisites for a good auto electric system. Quick story for you - i rebuilt a Golf Mk1 Gti a while ago.
Changed the erath cables for fork lift truck ones (only cos i had easy access at work). Engine turned over quicker as a result. Morale of the story -
contacts must be very clean and go for largest cable size you can get hold of. I have cable from battery to earth point (chassis) and from there to
engine.
I read recently that another earth mod was to fit a new earth from dizzy to chassis on points type systems to help give a better spark at the plugs.
Dont know the details though.
Dont worry about mods and complicated things. Try the basics first. The comment about ensuring advance weights arent sticking sounds good. Haynes
manual should help you with that. Basically thereis a vac pipe from dixxy to inlet manifold. Faster engine goes the more suck there is. this vacuum
moves the dizzy base plate (the bit the points are fixed to). This changes the timing thro rev range. If plate is stiff or seized the timing wont be
changing as you go faster and engine may not run as well. Quick clean and lube should sort it if is sticking. With cap of, take pipe from manifold and
suck on it - you should see base plate move.
Would be interesting to hear what jobs you have done in the running department before now.
If you are unsure what some bits are post a pic and we can point you in right direction.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 11:22 AM |
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I suspect nothing normal servicing won't find -
Before doing anything if the car had points ignition check the the points gap and the condensor is properly fitted and is making tight connections.
Your description points strongly towards a fuel supply problem -- choked fuel line, fuel pump, blocked tank vent, water in fuel, blocked jet. However
- I would also strongly advise doing a compression check particularly if the engine has not had a full unleaded conversion done as burn't
valves cause similar loss of power.
Any talk of fault main earth connections is only clouding the issue.
[Edited on 16/1/06 by britishtrident]
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CairB
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| posted on 16/1/06 at 01:07 PM |
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As suggested above, check the ignition first, especially with your comment regarding the noise changing.
However, sub standard earths can be tested by putting a voltmeter with one lead at the battery and the other at the load end e.g. starter motor
casing, then crank the engine on the starter. The voltage you read will be what is being lost in the cable resistance and the connections, low is
good. The supply lead can be checked in a similar manner.
I once had a fault on a Fiat 127 which ran ok up to a certain speed then the noise changed an it lost power. Dropping the speed for a bit then coming
back up was ok for a short period then same again. I found that the fault was a cracked plug just above the top thread, as the plug got hotter under
load the gap opened up and caused a leak that caused the noise and power loss. That one took some finding. 
Colin
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samwilliams
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| posted on 17/1/06 at 10:33 AM |
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I had a quick play last night, and mainly just fully cleaned up the earth connection, just to eliminate that as a cause. It sadly didn't solve
the problem.
One thing was a little confusing, and I don't know if it helps to suggest what might be the cause. The car's always run not perfectly, and
would stutter a bit (sounding like it does now) when you put your foot down, before accelerating properly. When it was doing it badly, if you kept it
stuttering, within a few seconds there would be a pop (I presume unburnt fuel going bang). With the recent problems, it hasn't been going pop,
however long you keep it stuttering. However last night, for a while, it was popping within a second of starting to stutter. Even more weirdly, then
it stopped popping completely (all in the space of a 20 minute steady journey). This morning, it had a period of about 5 minutes when it would pop.
Is this any help in trying to diagnose the problem, or not?
Going to have a more thorough check of everything this evening, so hopefully can at least eliminate some causes, if not solve it.
Sam
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britishtrident
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| posted on 17/1/06 at 11:36 AM |
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Still sounds like fuel problem just do the really basic checks --- check the fuel pump delivery, look in the carb bowl for water, clean the needle
valve, clean the jets.
Also check the plugs and points (if fitted) and dry any dampness from the ignition systems. Just removing looking at the plugs can tell you an awful
lot about an engines health.
Your poping durring previous "normal" running is usually a sign of weak mixture --- what kind of air filter is fitted ? do you have a
thermostat fitted ?
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samwilliams
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| posted on 17/1/06 at 07:14 PM |
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Right. Been out and had another go at sorting stuff. This time it was an attempt at the vacuum advance thingy. What is it actually supposed to be
like? By sucking the connector, nothing happens. The base plate moves pivots from one place to another if you move it by hand, but it's a
definite two bit thing, not a gradual process.
Am I looking at the wrong bit, is this right, or could this be a cause of at least part of the problem, if not all of it?
Sam
[Edited on 17/1/06 by samwilliams]
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samwilliams
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 01:38 PM |
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Sorry, just a quick message to get this back to the top, as I'm going to be having another fiddle a bit later, and could do with finding out the
answer to my last question. Can anyone help?
I'm sure this is going to take me about 10 times longer than it has to, because I'm not sure, when I look at something, whether it's
right or not yet! Still, that's what learning is all about, eh?
Sam
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Browser
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 01:46 PM |
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If you suck on the pipe leading to the vacuum advance unit.................
You'll get a dirty mouth!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist being an idiot (again)!
Sucking on said pipe should result in the distributor base plate rotating clockwise when viewed from the top. If this isn't happening, check the
hose for leaks/splits/perished bits. If this is OK the base plate will need freeing off. Sorry I can't be more specific, never done a crossflow
dizzy before!
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samwilliams
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 02:03 PM |
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Just to clarify two things:
1. Should it need a light or a strong suck to move it? (I know that's pretty difficult to judge, but should it move without too much effort?)
2. Should it gradually move from extreme to the other depending on the pressure, or should it jump from one point to the other after it reaches a
threshold level of sucking?
Sam
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 02:16 PM |
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Sam, It might be worth you having a Haynes manual or similar. Im sure they will have some pics and descriptions how to remove, maintain and
re-assemble things like this. Pics speak a 1000words etc. Someone might even be able to scan and email you some pages.
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samwilliams
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 02:21 PM |
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I do have the haynes manual for the escort mk2 (which is the right one, I believe), and it tells me how to remove it, and some basic bits However it
doesn't answer the questions I asked above. It seems to come from a time when general knowledge like that was probably assumed to be known!
Sam
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Schrodinger
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 02:22 PM |
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Sam
You do seem to be hopping about to try and solve the problem.
I would suggest that you check out the Earth first and make sure that you do have a proper earth lead running to the engine otherwise you will be
using the likes of the throttle cable to provide the earth which can be quite "interesting".
Then check plugs (probably replace)
Points & Dizzy cap (again I would replace both)
Then try running the engine at fast tickover and pull one plug lead at a time to see if the engine speed changes should do on each plug.
Then move onto the fuelling side.
Fuel Pump ok?
Filters in the fuel line and within the carbs
water in the carbs.
And any other things said above that I have missed but try and keep to particular parts of the system rather than jumping about.
regards
keith
Suffolk
PS I do have an "tester" that fits on top of the plug and shows if you are getting a spark if you would like to borrow.
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samwilliams
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 02:28 PM |
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Thanks for all the suggestions. As you can probably gather, this is all fairly new to me, so I really appreciate all the help and suggestions
you're giving me.
Just to make sure that I can completely eliminate the earth as being the problem, what connections should there be?
From what I can gather, there's the connection from the negative terminal to the chassis (connected to around where my feet are on mine). Then
there's another connection on the other side, which I presume is that chassis to engine one, after having heard that mentioned elsewhere?
Is that probably right, and are there any others I need to look out for?
Thanks
Sam
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 02:38 PM |
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You are right for the Earths. They need to be a good size and very clean and tight connections. Earth cable needs to be at least the size of the main
live cable, ive had good results going bigger. Halfords sell a good selection.
You seem to be concentrating on Ignition first. I like that plan. Remember the plugs may seem ok but can be knackered. Ones that have been excessively
soaked in fuel are almost certainly for the bin.
Dizzy base plate sounds like it needs further investigation. If you are unsure how to dismantle or not confident of re-assembly try and take digi pic
while you are dismantling (digi cameras werent invented when i did my very first car, pen and paper was used instead). Lay the bits you take off on a
clean rag or box lid in order. Take your time. If you get stuck you can post one of the pics for help. It should clean up quite well with thinners or
similar and a rag. Ensure mating / sliding surfaces are clean, smooth and lubed. Im not sure what the best lube is when re-assembling.
You will be surprised how easy the base plate will be to overhaul.
Remember, one job at a time and if you are unsure do a sketch or take a pic.
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samwilliams
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 03:05 PM |
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In terms of the spark plugs, if they do look a bit messed up (there's some nice diagrams in the haynes manual that I'll refer to!), what
are the right ones to replace them with?
If it changes depending on the engine (which I believe it does), it's a 1600 crossflow, the carbs aren't those side ones (that's
about as technical as I get!), and I believe it's fairly standard bits the whole way through.
Any suggestions?
Sam
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Browser
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 03:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by samwilliams
Just to clarify two things:
1. Should it need a light or a strong suck to move it? (I know that's pretty difficult to judge, but should it move without too much effort?)
2. Should it gradually move from extreme to the other depending on the pressure, or should it jump from one point to the other after it reaches a
threshold level of sucking?
Sam
As a guide, Mcdonalds milkshake up it's straw-sort of suck levels to get movement. The key is not really how much suck, just that it moves! The
movement, however, should be smooth. If you vary how hard you are sucking you shoyuld be able to get it to move back and forth. As stated above
though, make sure your earths are clean, decent sized and well tightened.
Just so we've got a baseline, can you tell us the following:
(1) How long since the kit was built?
(2) Was the engine reconditioned or just painted and lobbed in?
(3) Is the carburettor original and has it ever been overhauled?
(4) Have you ever had the engine set up professionally or has is just 'run OK' up until now?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 18/1/06 at 03:16 PM |
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Colours of plugs are a valuable clue as to teh health of an engine. you want a dry grey / brown colour on all 4. Oily black is too rich / burning oil.
If one is different to the others then this is another clue. Your problem is that you have already started messing about so i dont know how useful
they will be now. Plugs from back street motor factors are the cheapest, approx £5 for 4. From Halfords youll pay at least £10 but will get some
snazzy packaging to throw away!!! ask the man at the counter for plugs for certain engine, he will have a book to cross reference. Take the old plug.
The number will be on it.
Those side carb jobbies you refer to are sidedraughts. Twin 40's etc are these type and are normally aftermarket for more power. Std ford carbs
tend to be downdraught, ie the carb sits on top of manifold.
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