D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 12:46 PM |
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Most Competitive Engine?
Although it would be lovely to have an unlimited budget which would let you build different cars for different situations, very few of us do
so......... what engine (lets say realisticaly costing under £1500 to have up and running in a car) do you reckon would be the most competetive for
the least amount of money in the most forms of weekend club type motorsport? I'm not talking about championship winning here btw just about
being fast enough to be fun and not having to bumble around last in every event you enter!
I'm thinking maybe R1 or XE but can't decide between the two........
Any more ideas?
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Jeffers_S13
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 12:53 PM |
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A Nissan CA18DET  you can build an engine with forged pistons, metal head gasket, lightened and balanced bottom end, a decent T28 turbo etc...and be
on your way to 300BHP for £1500.
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smart51
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 12:56 PM |
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An R1 will all the extra bits you might need bought from reputable suppliers should cost less that £1500 easily. You should get 160 BHP when
dynojetted or power comandered on a good air filter and exhaust and will give 3.5s to 60 in a super-light-weight seven car or more like 4.5s in
something more medium weight.
Don't know about the XE.
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greggors84
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:13 PM |
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Surely it depends what class you want to race in?
Chris
The Magnificent 7!
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D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:20 PM |
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Ahh no, thats the point! I want something that'll be able to go circuit racing one weekend, hillclimbing a few weeks after, sprinting the
next month etc etc- I know it wont be excelent at any one thing but I haven't got the time or money to seriously do one championship and figured
that variety is potentialy the spice of life 
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:22 PM |
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ZX12
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procomp
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:23 PM |
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Hi dave that deffinatly rules out a locost race engine then on a 1500 budget. I bet ns dev will be here in a minute and say vx and could well be
right as it will be a bit easier to drive than a frantic bec is up the hills and narrow sprint tracks due to the torque available . But then again you
do get the 6 speed box as standard on a bec and with 13'' rims gearing will not be to bad.
not that much help really as you probably allready know this .
cheers matt
ps lets see how long it takes nat to pop up and say vx is the way.
(edit) sorry dave miss read thought it was r1 or vx not xe
[Edited on 4/4/06 by procomp]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:26 PM |
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A VERY good question indeed.
I think you will need to be able to do a LOT of work yourself on any engine to be competitive for less than £1500.
Turbo Nissan is straight out of the window, nothing like enough power once you add the multiplication factor on, plus I guess you are talking sprint
and hillclimb in which case you will need anti-lag to be anywhere at all.
Vauxhall XE, much as I like them, will not really be competitive on a £1500 budget, unless you are really canny about getting the bits together. The
problem here is that there are a million and one 7's running vauxhall XE's of the 200hp ilk and you need something to get you past them,
which invariably means steel rods.........which even being canny are going to be £400 minimum.
Are you talking about a car purely for motorsport and not driving it there and back too? If so then how about a tweaky air/oil cooled gsxr suzuki
engine.
I know of a few grassers running them based on GSF1200 bandit cases and bottom ends. They respond well to diy porting etc, slide carbs are cheap, ign
systems easy to come by and fairly cheap to remap, and with no cooling system as such they are SUPER light. 160hp is no big deal with these engines,
and they are lighter than the later watercooled superbike engines, easier to get bits for and less fragile. They are ideally suited to short events
like sprints and hillclimbs, and you can shave a lot of weight off the car by using one.........worth a think.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:28 PM |
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heh heh cross posted that with you matt, give the budget £2500 and I'd lean more to the vauxhall, but £1500 and you'll struggle! As you
say as well you don't get a free gearbox with the vauxhall!
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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procomp
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:34 PM |
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Well i got one thing nearly right only 3 minutes.I was wrong about his recomondation tho .
What about a 1800 zetec brand new in crate from ford 500 quid minor bits to complete and run it on megasquirt .
cheers matt
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ned
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:35 PM |
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talking about being compeitive, how do the classes you are looking at work with regard to engine cc - could you perhaps get a zetec se 1.6 cheap out
of a focus and run bike throttle bodies, megasquirt or emerald and possibly a set of cams s/hand if you can find some? this might be slower overall
but more competitive ina specific engien size class (ie upto 1.6 or 1.7 as some places run/used to run) or perhaps the 4-age, but the zetec is
probably cheaper to aquire and iirc is ally block? so lighter.
otherwise forthemoney i may well say bike engine as long as you can get the noise down without spending a lot on an exhaust!
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:42 PM |
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you can tell I am busy at the mo!
Think we both know that £1500 is the sort of budget that needs real ingenuity to be competitive on!!!
Here's me being miffed that I missed out on a Suzuki TL 1000 engine that went on ebay for £265 last night while I was making a cup of bloody
tea! (arse that I am!!!) 130hp 2 cyl and nice and light (82 kg incl everything like cooling system etc apparently (thanks froggy!))
That's my ingenuity, use two of those buggers, still only 4 cyl and 2 litres but 260hp or so and lighter than a car engine and box, with a
ridiculous torque curve and sequential gears, all for under a grand.......I can't get a gearbox for my vauxhall engine that will handle 260hp on
that budget, let alone build the engine!
Helps that national autograss rules allow multiple engines!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:44 PM |
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Nah, I'm well aware that for £1500 you're not going to win anything
Has to be legaly road legal but I wouldn't drive it to events (it's potentialy long walk home from most motorsport venues isn't
it!)
Zetec I had considered.....thought it was the SE they sold new for £500 though? (that's been a contender as well btw) if it's the 1800 as
well it becomes more tempting!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:48 PM |
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*********LOOK OUT>>>>>>>AUTOGRASS PLUG*************
you can win in autograss with a car built on a total budget of £2100, cos I won my first full season having spent exactly that on the car, plus £600
to run it for the whole season including all costs (tow fuel, camping etc all included)
just another take on it.
Don't dismiss it as crude either, there are some seriously technical cars involved nowadays, see april's racecar engineering.
(PS it actually cost me £600 to build the car, the one in my avatar and archive, but I already had the engine and ems which cost me around £1500, so
£2100 in total)
Another thing that has just crossed my mind while I am in autograss promo mode, is that the cars are unfeasibly quick considering the total
non-allowance of anything remotely resembling an exotic material in the rule book.
All steel in the main chassis sections must be 2.5mm wall minimum, so T45 steel etc is pointless, no composites are allowed anywhere on the cars etc
etc and yet they still make full blown rallycross supercars look rather slow around a track, as anybody who was at the NEC would have seen, and at
various other events too, such as the blyton rallycross/autograss event showed, where the autograss cars reset the lap records!!!
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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procomp
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:52 PM |
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Hi sorry should of said tho that it's the silver top ie formula ford- kit car one that is 500 quid . Not as light as the later 1600 se type but
would probably allow easier entry it to the cicuit side of things depends on what championship really tho as sprint and hill climb have a class for
just about anything .
matt
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procomp
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:56 PM |
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Maybe old mr champion would of been closer to the mark with build a grasser for £250 and race it . Sounds like good value for money to me as you get a
good few runs at each event dont you .
matt
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:57 PM |
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yep, get a few runs, normally get 5 as a minimum, so not much track time but then it's only a fiver to race and no pre entry is needed, just
turn up.
It's not perfect by any means, but unbeatable in terms of cheap motorsport.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 01:59 PM |
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So........ we've worked out that they will be holding the winter olympics in hades before you're truly competitive with an engine that
cost you £1500ish but we knew that already....... what we haven't resolved yet is what engine is going to be the least embarassing/most fun
for £1500?
Autograssing hmmmmm, never considered that to be honest, I shall investigate 
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procomp
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:05 PM |
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A little bit like locost racing really more time on the grass than the black stuff.
matt
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ned
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:06 PM |
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what about mazda rotaries? what do they cost and what needs changing to install them in a 7? (assuming its a 7 you're fitting this engine
to!)
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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D Beddows
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:09 PM |
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Indeed Matt
So in your role as chief autograss racing plugger Mr Dev, can you recomend any decent autograss related web sites suitable for those of us under
employed at work today?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:12 PM |
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The best I can come up with on that budget (assuming the class structure allows bike engines directly competing with equivalent cc car engines) is to
use a gsxr 1100 or gsf 1200 motor.
You should be able to find one ready modified for that sort of money, and they are as tough as old boots, in the grassers they sit on the rev limiter
for most of their lives, covered in mud and never miss a beat.
The modern bike engines are more in demand so more pricey, heavier with their water cooling systems, don't seem to be as tough, as as the
air/oil cooled gixxer 1100 is the most common drag bike engine in existence, there are loads of cheap tweaky bits available.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
yep, get a few runs, normally get 5 as a minimum, so not much track time but then it's only a fiver to race and no pre entry is needed, just
turn up.
It's not perfect by any means, but unbeatable in terms of cheap motorsport.
Sorry but Ive got too pipe up a little on that one, I cant ever recall getting 5 runs at an event unless it was a two day weekend jobbie, 5 laps maybe
? I would expect unless things have changed a lot since my day too get at best 10mins total track time at an event.
I would also add grasstracking is anything but cheap motorsport apart from the entry fees, the cars you mentioned above at the NEC for example? The
cost of there engines alone would put me on track all season in the RGB series, Grasstracking is a great competitor sport but I think you need too
paint the full story.
Dave, drop a bike engine in, there very reliable especially compared too tuned car engines and are perfect for motorsport applications, that we can
thank grass trackers for, if you do the work yourself apart from maybe a prop adaptor you make all the bits you need yourself for not a lot of
$$$$$.
whatever have fun.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:19 PM |
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Websites:
Rather crappy but better put it at the top as is is the site of the governing body!!
NASA Site
Really good site of the national autograss magazine, photo galleries give you a good idea of the racing:
Autograss Review Mag
and my local club, only a very small club, heh heh just opened their new site and my car popped up!!!
M&L Autograss
there's a few for a kickoff.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/4/06 at 02:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
yep, get a few runs, normally get 5 as a minimum, so not much track time but then it's only a fiver to race and no pre entry is needed, just
turn up.
It's not perfect by any means, but unbeatable in terms of cheap motorsport.
Sorry but Ive got too pipe up a little on that one, I cant ever recall getting 5 runs at an event unless it was a two day weekend jobbie, 5 laps maybe
? I would expect unless things have changed a lot since my day too get at best 10mins total track time at an event.
I would also add grasstracking is anything but cheap motorsport apart from the entry fees, the cars you mentioned above at the NEC for example? The
cost of there engines alone would put me on track all season in the RGB series, Grasstracking is a great competitor sport but I think you need too
paint the full story.
Dave, drop a bike engine in, there very reliable especially compared too tuned car engines and are perfect for motorsport applications, that we can
thank grass trackers for, if you do the work yourself apart from maybe a prop adaptor you make all the bits you need yourself for not a lot of
$$$$$.
whatever have fun.
I always get 5 runs at M&L as long as we get scrutineering finished in a timely fashion. 2 x 5 lap heats, an 8 or 10 lap final and 2 x 5 or 8 lap
opens, have managed 4 opens once and 3 a good few times.
Yep, at big events like MAP Open you only get 3 runs in two days, but there is an entry of 700 cars!!!!! Try and get 2 heats for 700 cars racing at a
circuit in one day!
Club events normally attract 80-180 cars as a typical figure, and you will see 2 heats and a final plus as many opens as your car's cooling
system and your arms will stand.
Also Jon, the point was at CLUB level it's cheap. Nationally you need to spend a fair bit (prob around £9,000) to win, but at club and area
league level you can win on a sub £2k budget, last years east mids class 9 winner used a sub £2k car.
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
[Edited on 4/4/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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