Mansfield
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 07:58 PM |
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K Series head gasket AARRGGHH!
My Brother-in-law's M reg Rover 214Si (old shape) has used 8 litres of water in 30 mins today.
He says it has been getting hot, and has cut out with difficulty restarting.
I have yet to see it, but after the usual questions, it seems the oil is a funny colour, and is way up the dipstick.
No prizes for guessing whats wrong with that then.
The car is beyond economical repair unless I do it.
I am by no means a proffessional mechanic, but I am well capable of a 'normal' head gasket job.
From what I have read, the K series is NOT a normal head gasket job.
Am I wasting my time, and his money?
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froggy
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:01 PM |
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in a word yes
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DIY Si
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:02 PM |
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Head'll need skimming frpm the sounds of it. Sell/scrap it.
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stevec
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:06 PM |
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All the ones I have changed have been ok.
However if it has seriously cooked itself then bin it. May be worth a look though to see if it has picked up on the bores,
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Danozeman
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:07 PM |
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Deffo the head gaskets. The head will need skimming or it will blow again within 500 miles.
Depends how much you value your time. The gasket will be about 20-30 quid and the same again at least for skimming. Then theres the cambelt and your
time.
Id sell it for spares.
Dan
Built the purple peril!! Let the modifications begin!!
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk
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chasmon
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:17 PM |
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Disagree that it will blow again.
Neighbour had theirs done after I diagnosed it with the head gone and its still going stroung after a simple gasket change.
It does depend on how hot its been getting though...
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stevec
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chasmon
Disagree that it will blow again.
Neighbour had theirs done after I diagnosed it with the head gone and its still going stroung after a simple gasket change.
It does depend on how hot its been getting though...
I agree.
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zilspeed
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:27 PM |
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K series head gasket is not really difficult at all.
Get the lightest possible skim of the head while it's off. This cost me a tenner.
Check that the head studs are within spec and replace if necessary.
Tighten the studs exactly by the prescribed method in the book.
Flush, flush and flush the coolant system again.
Two special tools required are the cam locking tool and the torx tool for the head bolts. they are a few pounds each.
If you do it this way and discount your time, you'll do it for 50 quid including gaskets and the aforemntioned tools. That's if you
don't need to replace the head studs. Add another 30 quid if replacing these.
Take the car to a garage and it's probably not an economical repair (3-500 quid), rendering the car as scrap. That's a real waste IMHO -
do it yourself.
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Mansfield
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:32 PM |
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I dont think its boiled itself every day for months, but I think its been getting hot for a couple of weeks - I will find out more tomorrow.
Danozeman - my time has little value as I haven't ordered my 1" RHS yet
Stevec - I am interested in your comment "see if it has picked up on the bores". Is this piston to bore or liner movement relative to
head? Or both?
Froggy - I know.
I want to help, they are good people, but have very little spare cash and its all coming at once.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 08:35 PM |
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did my head gasket in my k series engined 216
changed belts all upper gaskets and oil seals
done 15000 miles since then, mind you head didn't need skimming
i'd say its worth it if you can do it yourself
Build Blog
Build Photo Album
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Mansfield
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:02 PM |
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After much searching I have found the Haynes. I can see why its not a 'normal' job now.
If I did have a go, and I think I will, am I better off getting a proper Rover head gasket?
Is it the end of the world if I accidently disturb a liner? What are the chances of this happening?
One final thought, what are the chances of the problem being knackered liner seals? I haven't heard of this before though.
One thing I do know, this will NOT interfere with Stoneleigh!
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stevec
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 09:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mansfield
I dont think its boiled itself every day for months, but I think its been getting hot for a couple of weeks - I will find out more tomorrow.
Danozeman - my time has little value as I haven't ordered my 1" RHS yet
Stevec - I am interested in your comment "see if it has picked up on the bores". Is this piston to bore or liner movement relative to
head? Or both?
Froggy - I know.
I want to help, they are good people, but have very little spare cash and its all coming at once.
If it has really cooked, the aluminium of the piston will have left a witness mark/scuff usually black and orrible on the bore, if so its cabbage.
[Edited on 25/4/06 by stevec]
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MikeR
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 10:02 PM |
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DO get a rover head gasket kit! Make sure the head locating pegs are NOT plastic. For a few years rover supplied plastic pegs, these are often why
heads fail soon as they don't hold things in place properly after having the gasket changed.
(this knowledge is all gained from reading the web)
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greggors84
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 11:24 PM |
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If you get a proper Rover head gasket kit it will come with everything you need, including the metal locating pegs dowels, as mike said the plastic
ones are one of the reasons the K16 is prone to failure.
Pretty easy job, did one on my mates 214 without any major problems. If you have done a head gasket before its no extra trouble, just remember to lock
the cams.
Chris
The Magnificent 7!
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DEAN C.
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| posted on 25/4/06 at 11:30 PM |
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The liners drop for fun and the liner seals leak if disturbed.
The heads are prone to crack so you really need a pressure test as well!
I was a Rover specialist breaker about six years ago and bought nearly 400 rovers over a couple of years.2/3rds of the heads we tested on K series
were cracked.
I hate the bl**dy engines and would only buy Rovers to run with Honda or M and T series engines in them.
Yes I'm biased!!
If you strip one of these engines you will see how little metal there is in them ,they are light because they are almost hollow and skeletonised in
design.
I'm now fitting helmet and flak jacket as everyone is going to defend this crappy engine because they have a good one!
There are a few people who specialise in these engines that do know what they are doing, but they will charge you big money and are biased towards
racing engines.
Dean............
Ps.I'm a engineer/fitter by trade and now manage four HGV vehicle repair contracts across the north of England so I am not an expert but I do
know a bit about vehicles/engines .
Once I've finished a project why do I start another?
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iank
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 07:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DEAN C.
...
If you strip one of these engines you will see how little metal there is in them ,they are light because they are almost hollow and skeletonised in
design.
...
Not going to defend the K series overall, though I do have one that's doing fine.
But this comment is a bit strange. It's very thin because they invented a new casting technique to allow them to cast thin but have the same
strength as a conventionally cast ally block. So it's as strong as any other, but lighter. Sounds good to me
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froggy
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 08:19 AM |
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the whole block and heads on the k had to be resin dipped to seal them from new , my mate had a contract to do them early nineties. im a grease
monkey and if it was me id get a ten quid head gasket and give it a go as if its got proper hot its nacked and perhaps a new gasket will buy enough
time to take it to auction(not that i would ever take a vehicle with a serious engine problem to auction) balls to the head bolts i only use them on
the 820 engine and not had a problem yet , half a days work if your steady
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 09:30 AM |
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Whip the head off and check for any impressions that the fire ring on the gasket has made. If there is a circular groove around the combustion
chamber, chances are very high that the engine has been badly overheated and the head is scrap as the alloy has softened.
Properly built these engines can be reliable, but you can't just chuck them together like an old Pinto or Crossflow. Having the correct liner
heights is very important if the engine is to hold a gasket, and checking the length and torquing the head bolts properly is also very important.
Landrover have recently introduced an improved gasket, and also a stronger oil rail (which is what the head bolts screw into) which is to aleviate the
HGF in Freelanders. Might be worth using these.
My old man has done 2 or 3 of these a week for the past couple of years and is yet to have one back...
[Edited on 26/4/06 by MikeRJ]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 11:01 AM |
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Went through the procedure on the forum a while back for Zillspeed
The K16 is very easy engine to work on -but you must follow the book procedures no short cuts either when stripping or rebuilding -- head is unlikely
to need skimmed unless it has corrosion around the bore ring area due to lack of antifreeze changes. Most likely cause of head gasket failure is
slow leakage from the corner inlet manifold gasket. Follow book procedure exactly when stripping and rebuilding.
Gasket usually fails by blowing out of silicone sealer beads between the oil and water passages.
What makes or breaks the chances of success is if any of the cylinder liners have dropped -- only happens if the engine hasd been cooked.
Before replacing the head check the fitted length of the head bolts also clean the threads of the bolts with a hex die nut. bolts should be cleaned
with wd40 or diesel/kerosene before fitting and allowed to drip dry (or blow dry with airline). DO NOT OIL as this can play havoc with the initial
torquing. Use a decent quality low range torque wrench -- follow procedure exactly.
always use a new the inlet manifold gasket and place an extra washer under the head of each nut -- tighten manifold in correct order. When fitting
the cam carrier use the correct Rover spec Loctite sealant and take care no to block the oil ways -- Tighten cam carrier bolts in correct order. Fill
and bleed the cooling system.
[Edited on 26/4/06 by britishtrident]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 12:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DEAN C.
The liners drop for fun and the liner seals leak if disturbed.
The heads are prone to crack so you really need a pressure test as well!
I was a Rover specialist breaker about six years ago and bought nearly 400 rovers over a couple of years.2/3rds of the heads we tested on K series
were cracked.
I hate the bl**dy engines and would only buy Rovers to run with Honda or M and T series engines in them.
Yes I'm biased!!
If you strip one of these engines you will see how little metal there is in them ,they are light because they are almost hollow and skeletonised in
design.
I'm now fitting helmet and flak jacket as everyone is going to defend this crappy engine because they have a good one!
There are a few people who specialise in these engines that do know what they are doing, but they will charge you big money and are biased towards
racing engines.
Dean............
Ps.I'm a engineer/fitter by trade and now manage four HGV vehicle repair contracts across the north of England so I am not an expert but I do
know a bit about vehicles/engines .
Early K series engine is a very different beast from the the mid 90s on units (spotted by the plastic inlet manifold) -- block and head castings are
different. Problems with early units were mainly down to owners using cheap antifreezes that had a % of methanol in the blend which were sold as
beeing suitable for aluminium engines but weren't.
With proper ethelene glycol or OAT based coolant changed at the specified intervals there is no problem, I have a friend with an early K16 in a 214
owned for 14 years that has never had any work done on it apart from servicing and brake pads.
Later K16 engines were re-designed to allow for prouction of the 1.6 and 1.8 versions, two very specific problems exist with these -- all he engines
are prone to external water loss from hoses and the the infamous inlet manifold gasket -- as the cooling system has very little reserve water capacity
this leads to overheating and gasket failure.
The second problem only comes to light on 1.6 and 1.8 engines which are fitted with an alloy sump, the head bolts were found not to be screwing down
far enough into the ladder assembly to clamp the head --- the cure is simple check the head bolt fitted length before refitting the head even with
new bolts, if they are too long grind a bit off and clean the threads with a die nut.
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Mansfield
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 09:52 PM |
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I saw the car tonight.
No signs of external water leaks, old or new.
The rocker cover looks 2/3 full of coffee coloured emulsion.
The sump is full of coffee, and appears to b around 7" up the dip stick. Is that possible? It doesn't look residual, but this level is
above the crankshaft. 8 litres of water has gone somewhere though.
I think the failure has been fairly sudden, apparently "an airlock" about 10 days ago, and now this.
It has got quite hot he says.
Sounds like a bad one to me, What do you think?
David
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froggy
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 10:06 PM |
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have a taste ,if its coffee it should repair but if its tesco finest toffee yoghurt your in trouble looks like youve got all the advice you need so
flip a coin and see if you get the head off and its bad then its a few hours wasted but its a bugger to get the sludge out of the water system after
youve done it! forte do a good bio degreaser which smells like tango and makes a good job of emulsifiying the oil
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 05:55 PM |
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Had one that I spent ages trying to clean , in the end I tried some dishwasher powder .Put some in the cooling system , start engine, run until fan
has come on a few times, drain, flush and refill . Worked a treat and didn't appear to cause any problems . Better than the crap in the cooling
system anyhow. If you do the head gasket change the thermostat when you have the head off it's much easier!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 06:13 PM |
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Sounds like the sealant tracks on the gasket have blown out tends to be quite spectactualar --- but the big question is how much damage was done by
runing it afterwards.
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UncleFista
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 06:33 PM |
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A very interesting article on the "fragility" of the K HERE
Tony Bond / UncleFista
Love is like a snowmobile, speeding across the frozen tundra.
Which suddenly flips, pinning you underneath.
At night the ice-weasels come...
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