Just
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 06:25 PM |
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Water refill and airlocks - is it working? See page 2 for pics
In another thread I was fitting a new water pump - I have filled up with plain water and let the engine run for a few minutes. The water pump
doesn't leak so that looks good.
However, as the temp gauge measures the water temp how do I know if the water is reaching all parts of the engine (the bottom half of the engine
seemed to get hot quite quick)?
If I have an airlock how can I tell and if needs be get rid of it?
The new water pump has the viscous fan outlet on it, which I have a blocker-pipe for. I left this off while filling until water came out and then I
blocked it off again. When the engine was running water was squirting back into the expansion tank through the top pipe - is this right?
Squeezing the top rad pipe pushed some water into the expansion tank but the pipe itself felt like it had more air than water in it
(resistance-wise).
Any help much appreciated as I am hoping to get back on the road this evening.
[Edited on 6/6/06 by Just]
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tks
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 06:39 PM |
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when your pump pumps
And the water is going from the engine to the bottle then how can you have an airlock in the engine??
sow seems good to me,
when the thermostaat begins to openup, the radiator will be added to the circuit sow make sure you add water enough to the installation.
also wy do you add water and not antifreeze??
do you add destilled?
Regards,
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Just
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 06:42 PM |
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Just water for now to test for leaks around new pump. Will go and drain and fill properly then if water going in an out means no airlock.
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k33ts
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 08:12 PM |
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if its a tiger rad theres a bleed screw on the rad top right corner
tukcustoms.com
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Just
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 08:51 PM |
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Not sure if it is a Tiger rad, but can't see a bleed screw.
I have filled it up with distilled and anti-freeze now and have ran the engine for a few minutes twice. The first time it went down a small amount so
i topped it up. The second time it was fine until after about 2 minutes when the level started to go up and then went up quite rapidly causing the
tank to overflow.
On both occassions steam was coming out of the expansion tank quite soon after starting the engine. The rad was getting hotter at the bottom than the
top, but the heat was gradually going up.
Am I doing something wrong or is the steam and overflowing normal? I have finished for the night now, so tomorrow should I top it up again (if it
goes down) and then run it again?
Having let it cool down again it seems the level has dropped a little below where I topped it up to before the last engine run.
[Edited on 5/6/06 by Just]
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Chippy
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 10:21 PM |
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Something VERY odd if the rad is getting hotter at the bottom, the hot water enters at the top and after filtering down through the core exits the
bottom cooler. The other odd thing is that water should not be flowing back to the header tank, untill the thermostat opens, something very, very
weird. I think I would crack the top connection on the rad, just to make sure you have water up there, this would also clear any air lock in the top
of the rad. atb Chippy
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muzchap
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 10:55 PM |
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Yeah sounds like backpressure.
My advice - remove rad cap, remove header cap - fill rad manually until @ top.
Replace cap - add some water to header tank - start the car - it should drag the water from the header round the system.
Good luck
------------------------------------
If you believe you're not crazy, whilst everybody is telling you, you are - then they are definitely wrong!
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 06:46 AM |
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Ok thanks guys, I don't have a rad cap, but can take the hose off the top of the block and fill the rad that way, didn't feel like there
was any water in the top rad pipe.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 08:22 AM |
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You should have a header tank with a rad cap on, and this should be the highest part of the system. If not, you're building in problems
unnecessarily.
Some of the cars I deal with have water returns from the back of the heads to the top tank as well. This gives more even cooling and prevents any air
locks in the engine end.
With the header tank at the top of the system, all you then need is a small tube from the top of the rad to the header, and this will deal with any
air/vapour problems and be self bleeding.
Cheers,
Syd.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 08:33 AM |
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Yep, to echo what syd said, you should have small hose from any high points in the system (usually thermostat housing, top of rad etc) back to the
header tank to make the system bleed its own air out.
Do all this first, if you still have probs come back on again as there is another less fortunate possibility if you got it really hot when you drove
it very low on water!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 09:18 AM |
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Thanks guys, the header tank is higher than everything else, although the bottom pipe would be lower than the top of the rad, but all the pipes slope
down from the header tank.
The pipes in my system are;
Pipe A is the one squirting water into the header tank and runs between the block and the header tank
Pipe B is carrying the water out of the bottom of the header tank to the bottom of the rad
Pipe C carrys water between the top of the rad an the block (direction unknown)
Pipe D carrys water between the water pump and the rad (direction unknown)
Water is squirting from Pipe D into the tank - I guess this is wrong then?
I don't think I got the engine really hot before just doing 60 up the motorway - no heroics and there was still quite a bit of water in the
engine/system when I took it apart to change the pump.
Also how will I know when there isn't an airlock - is it just the fact that all pipes and the whole of the rad will get warm?
Finally, does the temperature gauge on the dash measure from the sensor on top of the rad? This might explain steam at 50 degrees.
[Edited on 6/6/06 by Just]
[Edited on 7/6/06 by Just]
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 05:31 PM |
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Still in need of some thoughts here. I took off the hose between the top of the rad and the engine. Water came out of the rad and out of the engine
end so I don't think there was an airlock in that pipe (although why it is so wide I don't know).
Have checked and double checked and there is no bleed screw on either the rad or stat and the stat looks well fixed in.
Having ran the engine again to get it all warm water is still coming through the pipe from the top of the engine into the top of the header tank. I
was told by a work colleague that he has seen this type of arrangement on an engine before?
So, with everything warmed up, the pipe from the bottom of the header tank to the bottom of the rad stayed cold throughout, the pipe from the bottom
of the rad to the water pump warmed up, the pipe from the top of the rad to the engine warmed up and the pipe from the engine back to the header tank
warmed up too. This would lead me to believe there isn't an airlock?
The rad itself heated up at the bottom first but quickly heated to the top as well. The bottom of the rad was a fair bit hotter than the top when I
stopped the engine with the top left being quite a bit colder than the top right.
The water coming into the header tank was very hot at the end (steam again) and putting on the cap to see if pressurisation would do anything
didn't.
I am confused now as to whether I have a problem or not - the only odd things remaining are the water coming into the tank (which could be normal) and
the rad heating up at the bottom.
Any further help would be much appreciated as I am running out of ideas.
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tks
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 06:18 PM |
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When cold
The water going from the engine to the
header tank is perfect! it eliminates air bubles etc. etc..
also i guess the level isn't growing in th ebottle sow water is also pumped out of that bottle..
its just tje small (when cold) circuit!!
seen for example on a not to old Astra 1.9Diesel
When hot, the thermostat will open up
and then water is taken from the rad and added to the rad, its just that simple!!
if your bottle is the highest on all of the things and it has water then your engine has it to!!
if it then makes circuit using the bottle then there is no problem!
Wy not take some pics!
(if needed with phone)
or draw us up your situation in PAINT
(save as jpg)
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 06:38 PM |
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I think a pic of your system would come in handy. It sounds as if everyone is getting confused with what you mean. If poss a schematic of the system
would be useful to, ie which pipe goes where and so on.
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 07:51 PM |
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Ok, I'll go and get some pics now and get them up with a clear-ish description.
Meantime, if the temp gauge stays below 80 deg does it matter whether water is circling properly? I am assuming that the temp sensor on the block is
reading the actual temp of the engine and as long as I keep it below 80 deg I can safely keep it running no matter what issues are occurring with the
water works?
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DIY Si
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 08:15 PM |
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Depends. If the water around the engine is flowing and is at 80 C then that's fine. However, if a pipe is placed wrong, that could be the only
water flowing, ie the other end of the engine could be at 100+C, which could start trouble.
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 10:20 PM |
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 10:29 PM |
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Apologies if the photos above are a bit big, but I think they just about capture it all.
From the top;
Pipe A is the one squirting water into the header tank and runs between the block and the header tank
Pipe B is carrying the water out of the bottom of the header tank to the bottom of the rad
Pipe C carrys water between the top of the rad an the block (direction unknown)
Pipe D carrys water between the water pump and the rad (direction unknown)
The only pipe that doesn't get hot as quick as the rest is pipe B.
Having ran the engine twice again tonight and getting up as high as 85 deg, with the tank held higher than anything else, we got two lots of over
flow, but crucially some spitting and weezing from Pipe A along with the usual water flow and a drop in level (although slight). Also the water
turned from clean pink to a dirtier pink/brown once the gauge hit about 80 deg.
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Just
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| posted on 6/6/06 at 10:39 PM |
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And a schematic;
I should add that the pipes etc have all gone back on the way they were and the previous owner ran it for 1350 miles (I imagine without issue).
I have also tested for pressure in pipe C when turning the engine on cold and there was no pressurisation, so I am confident there is no damage from
the original drive with a dodgy water pump seal.
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tks
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| posted on 7/6/06 at 05:29 AM |
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mhh
Looks fine to me,
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Schrodinger
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| posted on 7/6/06 at 06:28 AM |
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I may have missed it but I can't see a pipe from the head(between the carbs) and anywhere. Is this blocked off? If so it could be your
problem.
BTW the Tiger rad doesn't come with the bleed screw but a rad repair shop should be able to put one in quite cheaply.
I also used to have problems bleeding the air from my Cat but used to lift the header off the bracket to get it as high as possible when filling.
[Edited on 7/6/06 by Schrodinger]
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Just
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| posted on 7/6/06 at 06:54 AM |
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There is a pipe between the carbs from the engine into a little 'flask' like thing - is this it?
I see in the Tiger manual even they recommend that a bleed screw is put into the rad, but as it is a pressurised system I am wary. My main issue is
knowing whether I have an airlock or not - did you have water steadily flowing through the top pipe 'A' into your header tank?
I can make the bottom of the header the highest part of the system by removing from the brackets, but where the bottom pipe (b) goes down to the rad
it goes under the carbs, so limits how high I can currently get the tank up.
[Edited on 7/6/06 by Just]
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tks
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| posted on 7/6/06 at 07:01 AM |
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nahh what only is interesting
is the water level,
it should be the highest in the tank, that will asure you that there is a pressure on everything below it...
the bleed screw will help you faster.
also when the engine will get hot and a bodgy road will help you allot.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 7/6/06 at 07:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Just
There is a pipe between the carbs from the engine into a little 'flask' like thing - is this it?
No thats the PCV valve i should think.
On the pintos std install there is a pipe which runs from the centre of the head between the carbs, which originally heated the manifold and operated
the auto choke. When you fit DCOEs this usually gets blocked off, but it can be left open and reconnected to help with water circulation around the
head. IIRC the pipe from here usually connects into the waterpump where the pipe on yours is blocked off.
The large pipe from the thermostat housing allows water to flow from the head to the rad when the thermostat opens at about 88deg.
The large hose from the bottom of the rad to the water pump is the water return to the block.
When you fill the header tank the water is going down pipe B, filling the rad, then the engine via pipe D. Problem is, air cant get out of the rad as
the thermostat will be closed, meaning pipe C is effectively blocked off. Pipe A will let air out of the engine as its the other side of the
thermostat.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Just
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| posted on 7/6/06 at 07:46 AM |
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Thanks David, with the pipe names it makes it so much easier - the thermostat opens at 88 deg then - drat, probably got within about 3degs of that
last night!. So if I understand correctly the rad below 88 degs does not 'flow' water around it's whole height?
Is a possible solution to open the rad stat by shorting it to allow water all around the rad and hope the air works up to the highest part (tank held
up) again?
Would the rad get hot towards the top if the stat hadn't opened? We noticed that the water in the header tank went brown quite quickly at one
point suggesting that the water had gotten to a part of the system it hadn't previously (when the engine got as warm as we had had it).
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