I've got a phoenix with a fairly un-tuned 1600 crossflow. Recently it's been gradually running worse and worse, but it seems to vary from day to day. This morning, for example, it would barely accelerate past 50mph at one point. Essentially, as I tried to accelerate it sounds different and just doesn't go. Sometimes it then decides to kick in, and will accelerate.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the best things to check with this (I know very little, so please keep it simple!). I'm almost certain that it could do with a good tune-up from someone, so does anyone know any decent rolling roads or something within sensible distance of Bath?

Thanks

Sam

Could be any number of things!

you need to go through your ignition system and check all the obvious things: points, condensor, rotor arm, Dizzy cap, plug leads and plugs also vacuum advance connection and vacuum advance itself.

You need to check your fuel system: fuel pump - particularly if it is an electric one, fuel filters if fitted, is there muck in the carb etc? water in the fuel?

it could be sticking valves in the head or maybe something else I haven't thought of.

Does that get you something to go at?

Cheers

Mark

You mention that when it wouldnt go past 50 it sounded different. Im wondering if at that point it was only running on 3 cylinders???? Did it sound more like a sewing machine then a sportscar? This might be because one cylinder wasnt getting spark for a while.

initially i would suspect ignition system. Basic things to check are as Mark describes. Ie - all connections are clean and sound. Plug leads connected securely and none damaged. Dizzy cap, points etc all clean. I cant help thinking that you could have a loose or correded connection somewhere. Do you have the basic points type ignition or electronic (ie is a set of points visible when you take dizzy cap off?).

At this stage i would suspect fuel to a greater extent as long as fuel pump and filters are basically OK. As you say the car might just be up for a good tune. Basic tune up places probs wontbe much help. Rolling roads are great but expect a higher bill if they have to take time replacing basic components that they would normally expect to be OK.

You havent had the car long and iirc you said last time it had been laid up for a while. Perhaps general corrosion on contacts is present. Earths need to be A1. Was the car generally maintained well by last owner? Have you changed anything since getting it on the road?
Ignition timing hasnt been discussed here - that would be your next area to look at. Check the basics first though. If you are not 100% confident try and get someone to help you. Dont strip loads of bits off at once. Id recommend one thing at a time in a logical manner.

If you're OK with Cheltenham then I can highly recommend Mech Repairs.

I've used them for years and modded many cars with them. They specialise in carb setup but also work with many low volume specialist car manufacturers on car development.

They don't advertise and don’t work on Saturdays. They do however get very busy as the race season kicks off cus as their services are sought after.

www.rollingroad.co.uk

For something like this, I would check:-

1. Electrical
2. Fuel
3. Mechanical

The vast majority of engine related breakdowns or problems are electrically related. Check all the points mentioned by mookaloid plus coil. Check for tracking if it's been really damp in your area. Also check the timeing. If everything is OK, check fuel delivery. Have you run the tank dry recently? If you are using the original Ford carb or the popular Webber replacement, check that everything is operating as it should. If you have twin 40's or similar and you are not too confident, have them checked by someone who knows about them.
If either of the above are not the problem, it's probably mechanical, sticking valves being the most obvious but it's more than likely electrical.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Thanks for the suggestions. Could a dodgy earth connection be the cause? It might well be at least partially linked to that, because I have had problems with the earth before. At the moment, the earth connection from the battery doesn't seem to be wonderful. Someone suggested possibly putting a second earth connection from it to the engine block. Might this be a good idea? What would be the best way of getting two wires running off the negative terminal of the battery?

One other thing to check , make sure the auto advance weights in distributor are not partially siezed , take off baseplate and lubricate cam and weight pivot points. Fairly common problem on engines that have stood unused for a while

I would have thought that it would be better to make sure that the existing earths work properly. If you put a second earth cable to the engine from the battery, but the other one is dodgy you will still get odd problems.

So replace them all and clean the contact areas including the engine to chassis lead if you have to, but get those working ok first.

Cheers

mark

Sam, Good earths are one of the main prerequisites for a good auto electric system. Quick story for you - i rebuilt a Golf Mk1 Gti a while ago. Changed the erath cables for fork lift truck ones (only cos i had easy access at work). Engine turned over quicker as a result. Morale of the story - contacts must be very clean and go for largest cable size you can get hold of. I have cable from battery to earth point (chassis) and from there to engine.

I read recently that another earth mod was to fit a new earth from dizzy to chassis on points type systems to help give a better spark at the plugs. Dont know the details though.

Dont worry about mods and complicated things. Try the basics first. The comment about ensuring advance weights arent sticking sounds good. Haynes manual should help you with that. Basically thereis a vac pipe from dixxy to inlet manifold. Faster engine goes the more suck there is. this vacuum moves the dizzy base plate (the bit the points are fixed to). This changes the timing thro rev range. If plate is stiff or seized the timing wont be changing as you go faster and engine may not run as well. Quick clean and lube should sort it if is sticking. With cap of, take pipe from manifold and suck on it - you should see base plate move.

Would be interesting to hear what jobs you have done in the running department before now.

If you are unsure what some bits are post a pic and we can point you in right direction.

I suspect nothing normal servicing won't find -

Before doing anything if the car had points ignition check the the points gap and the condensor is properly fitted and is making tight connections.


Your description points strongly towards a fuel supply problem -- choked fuel line, fuel pump, blocked tank vent, water in fuel, blocked jet. However - I would also strongly advise doing a compression check particularly if the engine has not had a full unleaded conversion done as burn't valves cause similar loss of power.

Any talk of fault main earth connections is only clouding the issue.

[Edited on 16/1/06 by britishtrident]

As suggested above, check the ignition first, especially with your comment regarding the noise changing.

However, sub standard earths can be tested by putting a voltmeter with one lead at the battery and the other at the load end e.g. starter motor casing, then crank the engine on the starter. The voltage you read will be what is being lost in the cable resistance and the connections, low is good. The supply lead can be checked in a similar manner.

I once had a fault on a Fiat 127 which ran ok up to a certain speed then the noise changed an it lost power. Dropping the speed for a bit then coming back up was ok for a short period then same again. I found that the fault was a cracked plug just above the top thread, as the plug got hotter under load the gap opened up and caused a leak that caused the noise and power loss. That one took some finding.

Colin

I had a quick play last night, and mainly just fully cleaned up the earth connection, just to eliminate that as a cause. It sadly didn't solve the problem.

One thing was a little confusing, and I don't know if it helps to suggest what might be the cause. The car's always run not perfectly, and would stutter a bit (sounding like it does now) when you put your foot down, before accelerating properly. When it was doing it badly, if you kept it stuttering, within a few seconds there would be a pop (I presume unburnt fuel going bang). With the recent problems, it hasn't been going pop, however long you keep it stuttering. However last night, for a while, it was popping within a second of starting to stutter. Even more weirdly, then it stopped popping completely (all in the space of a 20 minute steady journey). This morning, it had a period of about 5 minutes when it would pop.

Is this any help in trying to diagnose the problem, or not?

Going to have a more thorough check of everything this evening, so hopefully can at least eliminate some causes, if not solve it.

Sam

Still sounds like fuel problem just do the really basic checks --- check the fuel pump delivery, look in the carb bowl for water, clean the needle valve, clean the jets.

Also check the plugs and points (if fitted) and dry any dampness from the ignition systems. Just removing looking at the plugs can tell you an awful lot about an engines health.

Your poping durring previous "normal" running is usually a sign of weak mixture --- what kind of air filter is fitted ? do you have a thermostat fitted ?

Right. Been out and had another go at sorting stuff. This time it was an attempt at the vacuum advance thingy. What is it actually supposed to be like? By sucking the connector, nothing happens. The base plate moves pivots from one place to another if you move it by hand, but it's a definite two bit thing, not a gradual process.

Am I looking at the wrong bit, is this right, or could this be a cause of at least part of the problem, if not all of it?

Sam

[Edited on 17/1/06 by samwilliams]

Sorry, just a quick message to get this back to the top, as I'm going to be having another fiddle a bit later, and could do with finding out the answer to my last question. Can anyone help?

I'm sure this is going to take me about 10 times longer than it has to, because I'm not sure, when I look at something, whether it's right or not yet! Still, that's what learning is all about, eh?

Sam

If you suck on the pipe leading to the vacuum advance unit.................
















You'll get a dirty mouth!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist being an idiot (again)!
Sucking on said pipe should result in the distributor base plate rotating clockwise when viewed from the top. If this isn't happening, check the hose for leaks/splits/perished bits. If this is OK the base plate will need freeing off. Sorry I can't be more specific, never done a crossflow dizzy before!

Just to clarify two things:

1. Should it need a light or a strong suck to move it? (I know that's pretty difficult to judge, but should it move without too much effort?)

2. Should it gradually move from extreme to the other depending on the pressure, or should it jump from one point to the other after it reaches a threshold level of sucking?

Sam

Sam, It might be worth you having a Haynes manual or similar. Im sure they will have some pics and descriptions how to remove, maintain and re-assemble things like this. Pics speak a 1000words etc. Someone might even be able to scan and email you some pages.

I do have the haynes manual for the escort mk2 (which is the right one, I believe), and it tells me how to remove it, and some basic bits However it doesn't answer the questions I asked above. It seems to come from a time when general knowledge like that was probably assumed to be known!

Sam

Sam
You do seem to be hopping about to try and solve the problem.
I would suggest that you check out the Earth first and make sure that you do have a proper earth lead running to the engine otherwise you will be using the likes of the throttle cable to provide the earth which can be quite "interesting".
Then check plugs (probably replace)
Points & Dizzy cap (again I would replace both)

Then try running the engine at fast tickover and pull one plug lead at a time to see if the engine speed changes should do on each plug.
Then move onto the fuelling side.

Fuel Pump ok?
Filters in the fuel line and within the carbs
water in the carbs.
And any other things said above that I have missed but try and keep to particular parts of the system rather than jumping about.

regards

keith
Suffolk

PS I do have an "tester" that fits on top of the plug and shows if you are getting a spark if you would like to borrow.

Thanks for all the suggestions. As you can probably gather, this is all fairly new to me, so I really appreciate all the help and suggestions you're giving me.

Just to make sure that I can completely eliminate the earth as being the problem, what connections should there be?

From what I can gather, there's the connection from the negative terminal to the chassis (connected to around where my feet are on mine). Then there's another connection on the other side, which I presume is that chassis to engine one, after having heard that mentioned elsewhere?

Is that probably right, and are there any others I need to look out for?

Thanks

Sam

You are right for the Earths. They need to be a good size and very clean and tight connections. Earth cable needs to be at least the size of the main live cable, ive had good results going bigger. Halfords sell a good selection.

You seem to be concentrating on Ignition first. I like that plan. Remember the plugs may seem ok but can be knackered. Ones that have been excessively soaked in fuel are almost certainly for the bin.

Dizzy base plate sounds like it needs further investigation. If you are unsure how to dismantle or not confident of re-assembly try and take digi pic while you are dismantling (digi cameras werent invented when i did my very first car, pen and paper was used instead). Lay the bits you take off on a clean rag or box lid in order. Take your time. If you get stuck you can post one of the pics for help. It should clean up quite well with thinners or similar and a rag. Ensure mating / sliding surfaces are clean, smooth and lubed. Im not sure what the best lube is when re-assembling.

You will be surprised how easy the base plate will be to overhaul.

Remember, one job at a time and if you are unsure do a sketch or take a pic.

In terms of the spark plugs, if they do look a bit messed up (there's some nice diagrams in the haynes manual that I'll refer to!), what are the right ones to replace them with?

If it changes depending on the engine (which I believe it does), it's a 1600 crossflow, the carbs aren't those side ones (that's about as technical as I get!), and I believe it's fairly standard bits the whole way through.

Any suggestions?

Sam

quote:

---

Originally posted by samwilliams
Just to clarify two things:

1. Should it need a light or a strong suck to move it? (I know that's pretty difficult to judge, but should it move without too much effort?)

2. Should it gradually move from extreme to the other depending on the pressure, or should it jump from one point to the other after it reaches a threshold level of sucking?

Sam

---

Colours of plugs are a valuable clue as to teh health of an engine. you want a dry grey / brown colour on all 4. Oily black is too rich / burning oil. If one is different to the others then this is another clue. Your problem is that you have already started messing about so i dont know how useful they will be now. Plugs from back street motor factors are the cheapest, approx £5 for 4. From Halfords youll pay at least £10 but will get some snazzy packaging to throw away!!! ask the man at the counter for plugs for certain engine, he will have a book to cross reference. Take the old plug. The number will be on it.


Those side carb jobbies you refer to are sidedraughts. Twin 40's etc are these type and are normally aftermarket for more power. Std ford carbs tend to be downdraught, ie the carb sits on top of manifold.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Browser

Just so we've got a baseline, can you tell us the following:
(1) How long since the kit was built?
(2) Was the engine reconditioned or just painted and lobbed in?
(3) Is the carburettor original and has it ever been overhauled?
(4) Have you ever had the engine set up professionally or has is just 'run OK' up until now?

---

Can you post some pics Sam or set yourself a photo archive up. General pic of car, engine bay then some details shots of dizzy, plug leads, coil, carb, fuel lines and filters etc. I think these will help.

I think you need practical help - because modern cars don't need constant attention these days newbies have a bigger hill to climb.

From your description you have two problems, the short term one is that something minor is wrong most likely a fuel supply problem or blocked jet -- but before that can can fixed the ignition should be checked over properly particularly if it has points ignition.

The other longer term problem - the occaisional popping back through the carb I suspect is due to the change in the airfilter arangements from the donor car and may require a change in carb jetting,

I had a quick look through the answers above and one thing came to mind...
...how long had the car been sitting idle? Could you have water/dirt/stale petrol coming into the engine?

Modern petrol goes off within a month or so.

I'd be tempted to see what a dose of fresh clean petrol would do...

David

In terms of problems being related to it not doing anything for a year. It has done just under 1000 miles since I got it, and only recently the problems have started to appear/get bad. Would I be correct in thinking that that would suggest that the popping being due to incorrect jets, and other fundamental problems with the stuff in the car (when working and set-up correctly) was not the problem?

I'm getting a friend of mine who knows a bit more than me (well, probably a lot more, but that doesn't say a lot), so hopefully will get somewhere, or at least find out a bit more. Will also take some pictures of everything and stick them in my photo archive.

Thanks
Sam

To check the earth
With the engine running at fast idle put a digital volt meter between a clean part of the engine block/head and battery negative termminal --- if you get a voltage reading more than about 0.2v then the earthing isn't good enough.

[Edited on 18/1/06 by britishtrident]

quote:

---

Originally posted by samwilliams
In terms of problems being related to it not doing anything for a year. It has done just under 1000 miles since I got it, and only recently the problems have started to appear/get bad.

---

Anyway, I'm leaving work now to go and try and sort it. Will be interested to see if sorting the vacuum advance solves it, as that certainly sounds as though it's not working right.

Hopefully will have at least more information, if not a solution (nothing wrong with being hopeful!), tomorrow. Bet you're all looking forward to that one!

Thanks

Sam

I'd start with a set of points, plugs, leads distributor cap and a condenser or get some electronic ignition sorted out. That rotor arm looks burnt. Then look at the fuel side of things.

And, if the dizzy's knackered, a Bosch electronic dizzy from a Valencia engine (don't forget the connector!). I believe that a Mk3 Escort is the best source... but please correct me if I'm wrong about the donor, everyone!

David

Well, we managed to get it running a huge amount better, and I feel silly as it was very straight forward to fix. Having said that, it just proves the point that you need to know what to look for, and look at the obvious things first!

Essentially, we pulled the leads of the spark plugs, and one of them was quite badly corroded. Just scraped that off, and it ran a huge amount better. It may well be that this was caused by something else, and the problem will return, but at least it's fixed it in the short term.

Thanks for all your help. At least it's given me a good list of things to work through next time something goes wrong (which it undoubtedly will!). Still a little confused about the vacuum advance not seeming right, so will look into that further.

As for the valencia distributor swap thing, I had thought of that. I seem to remember there was a link posted a while ago to something that was useful, so will look for that.

Which models do you get them from? What is it, other than the distributor itself, that you need to replace? Do you need to change the coil? What about the leads?

Thanks

Sam

Corrosion on a plug terminnal explain it --- plug leads transmit sweet f a current its all voltage even on an original xflow you are talking 15,000 volts. the plug leads are designed have a ressistance of about 30,000 ohms per foot so a little corrosion won't even be noticed.

More likely you need a new set of plug leads because the carbon filaments inside it are broken and also a new dizzie cap -- and get the points looked at they really need replaced every 5,000 miles.

Better still, bin the crossflow and fit a Zetec

quote:

---

Originally posted by Browser
Better still, bin the crossflow and fit a Zetec

---

What'ryou talkin' about, a Zetec isn't a bike engine?

quote:

---

Originally posted by samwilliams
As for the valencia distributor swap thing, I had thought of that. I seem to remember there was a link posted a while ago to something that was useful, so will look for that.

Which models do you get them from? What is it, other than the distributor itself, that you need to replace? Do you need to change the coil? What about the leads?

---

Thanks for that link. I think that's the one I'd seen before, and was going to have a search back for it. One thing that's not entirely clear from the page is actually which cars you can get it from.

It mentiones the mk4 1300 escort, then also mentions fiesta 1.4, orion etc. What years are these from? Is there any easy way to check if it's the right one?

Thanks
Sam

Not sure - I got mine from the Escort he described. It's from anything that has a Valencia engine, but that doesn't help you in the slightest!

Go to a scrappie and ask - I doubt you'll have any trouble finding one, as they're not kit car fodder...

There is one check you should make before you buy one - take the cap and plastic shield off, grasp the top of the shaft and waggle it side-to-side. If you can feel any play, go find another. These are fairly old now, and the bronze bushes can sometimes be worn out. Theoretically they can be changed, but I doubt that you'll find any spares. Most should be OK though.

If the worm gear at the bottom is worn, it's not the end of the world - Burton Power sell replacements for not too much money (or you can use the one off your old dizzy). It's only held on with a roll pin.

David

[Edited on 19/1/06 by David Jenkins]