Hello All,
For a little while I have been toying with the possibility of Supercharging the R1 motor. In my case it is a USA spec 2003 unit. I have had a look at
the Dynomite site. Their setup looks quite nice, but would be well out of my price range. I have been thinking of using an Eaton M45 out of a
'New" Mini Cooper. I went ahead and picked up a lightly used one (From a Works upgrade) to see if I could fit it under the Bonnet. It will.
I am curious if anyone out there has contemplated this or might have any comments or thoughts.
Regards,
Brian
Sounds really interesting, especially with all the unused superchargers on eBay. I guess the critical factor is how many PSI of boost they supply as
to what engine mods will be required. Any idea?
Regards
Chris
Tralfaz - is your car on the road? If not, I'd seriously recommend waiting till it is before you start slapping superchargers on the side.
It's very easy to get "numbers greedy" while you're building without realising that what you've got without a supercharger
could well be more than you really need or want on the road. Unless you're going to be heading into 100Mph+ territory on a regular basis, the
gains are unlikely to justify the effort.
Kingr
The most critical factor is the PSI (how much boost). Given the high boost pressures that superchargers are renowned for and the high compression
ratios that bike engines have; really and truly the two do not match together. However because bike engines are designed to breath in in a rev range
of 10,000+, and taking into consideration the factor of camshaft overlap, the effective compression ratio would be much less than the 11.0+ declered.
As for turbos if you tend to keep the stock compression and pistons it is not advisable to go beyond 5 -6psi (less than 0.5bar) which is nothing for a
supercharger!! On the other hand it would still look interesting given the fact that it will increase the torque at pratcically 0rpm something that is
missing on a bike engined. I have covered this subject in a lot of detail since I am tempted to supercharge/turbocharge my Fireblade as well.
There are other factors to be considered such as flow rate (cfm), drive, lubrication etcc.
What are the costs of the supercharger you have mentioned?
Phil,
Brand new Eaton superchargers from Mini's that are being upgraded to Works spec are regularly going for just over 200 quid on eBay. They seem to
come on in batches and look like they are being sold by people in the motor trade.
Almost bought one myself the other day but then realised I don't really know what I am doing and suspect I could do some real damage
That
said, someone has to do it as BEC forced induction really can't get more 'locost' than this.
Regards
Chris
Thanks for the comments.
First off,let me say this is just something I am toying with ,by no means starting tomorrow.
Kingr- No, the car is not running yet, I picked up the Supercharger mostly to see if it was possible, and if so, what considerations I should make for
the 'Possible' addition once the car is on the road for a bit. My chassis is Caterham sized, so there is not a massive amount of room under
the Bonnet.
As for the power issue, the addition of the Supercharger would not be to add massive amounts of power, but maybe 'Tweak' it a bit better for
my needs. Specifically, increase low end power and Torque while changing the upper band only a bit.
Chris - The specifics for an M45 can be found here.
http://www.filler-up.com/sscor/m45_specifications.htm
Modifications would include the addition of a drive pulley and probably a custom (Thick) head gasket to lower the compression ratio a tad. A power
commander would be a necessity
Also a big old intercooler!!
I don't plan on boosting very high at all, maybe 6 lbs?
Phil - The unit I picked up was about $300 US. Units sell on Ebay UK for about 150 pounds regularly.
I will be doing some calculations in the near future, if there is any interest, let me know and I will forward it.
Regards,
Brian
What ever additional ppwer you increase will be down to Torque since you will not be changing the revs. And teh magic formula of pwer is TxRevs!
It all looks very interesting this idea of supercharging. The prices look really good. I am more than willing to support you on this idea.
We can start by doing soem calculations on what pwer figures/compression ratios and modifictaiosn we are looking at together with costs involved. I
think if we keep a low 5psi but good cir cooling to keep the air temperature down we can get away with stock compression/pistons. We shoudl be able to
squeeze around 40bhp more. It has been done with nutrious oxide (35bhp no change to the internal) and turbocharging (6psi - 40bhp) no chnge either.
Hi Phil,
I did some rough calculations last night based on formulas in the Corky Bell book "Supercharged"
I will want to run them again before posting anything, but it looks like that 40% increase would be attainable with 5 lbs of boost and an 80%
efficient intercooler system.
Regards,
Brian
Any of you 'brits' want a charger, your topic sounds very interesting but way too early in my build to consider seriously, i only say
'brits' as its located on this side of the pond
£50 at the moment !!!
Jason
Brian,
My calculatiosn were also based on teh same book. Excellent stuff and really practical too.
Where your calculations based on stock compression?
Is your engine fuel injected since mine is carb fed and I might have an issue with that!
quote:
Originally posted by phil_far
Brian,
My calculatiosn were also based on teh same book. Excellent stuff and really practical too.
Where your calculations based on stock compression?
Is your engine fuel injected since mine is carb fed and I might have an issue with that!
this is a very interesting thread. i would be curious if anyone gets this running on there r1 or any bike engine for that matter. i think you would have to go with an injected motor, to keep it drivable at rpm levels below 4000. i read on a website where someone turboed an older r1 and they ended up switching the fuel delivery system to the newer injected bikes system to get it running correctly. i think they made 190rwhp at 5 or 6 psi. ill try to find the site. I think a company called TTS makes a supercharger for the hayabusa but it wasnt the twin screw type.
quote:
Originally posted by sean951
this is a very interesting thread. i would be curious if anyone gets this running on there r1 or any bike engine for that matter. i think you would have to go with an injected motor, to keep it drivable at rpm levels below 4000. i read on a website where someone turboed an older r1 and they ended up switching the fuel delivery system to the newer injected bikes system to get it running correctly. i think they made 190rwhp at 5 or 6 psi. ill try to find the site. I think a company called TTS makes a supercharger for the hayabusa but it wasnt the twin screw type.
thats it, looks like they where running a lot more boost than i thought. pretty impressive though for a 1 liter 4 cylinder on pump gas, but then again
bmw F1 engines where making 1400hp from 1 liter 4 cylinders in the 80's
I was wondering how much you have looked into tuning, I'm doing a 03 r1 motor and I'll be running a gt 25 or 28 turbo. Have you looked into injectors/management? Superchargers also require alot more work to fit. I'm located outside of Philadelphia, I'd like to check out your project as you make progress
Don't want to sound negative on this, but isn't there going to be an issue with the mechanical drive on an engine that has a 12000 rpm
redline?
I remember reading one of the mustang magazines a few years ago, they were trying to reach 200mph in a mustang, using a belt driven supercharger plus
who knows whatelse, I think they needed to reach only 8000rpm to make 200 and they went through 3 belts to do it.
Superchargers are tantalising on a bike engine because unlike turbos they increase the torque accross the entire rev range, but I'd have thought
the mechanical coupling would be prohibitive on such a high revving engine?
you can adjust the blower speed with a pulley, easy enough to get one custom made
quote:
Originally posted by tigris
I was wondering how much you have looked into tuning, I'm doing a 03 r1 motor and I'll be running a gt 25 or 28 turbo. Have you looked into injectors/management? Superchargers also require alot more work to fit. I'm located outside of Philadelphia, I'd like to check out your project as you make progress
Agreed, there should not be any issues with pulleys. Even blow through systems should work fine although I agree that drivability would be slightly
compromised due to the fixed jet/needle size at low speeds.
Brian, what sort of air cooling are you planning? Air/Air intercoolers do not seem to be that effective do they?
quote:
Originally posted by phil_far
Brian, what sort of air cooling are you planning? Air/Air intercoolers do not seem to be that effective do they?
Brian,
Visit this ste: http://www.best-guess.co.uk/westfield_turboblade/
You will see what a good turbocharged blow through bike engien is really like let aloen a fuel injected on .
However it also shows you how ineffectiev air/air cooling in a seven is, and how much more affecient water injection is
Great car, excellent bloke and loads of ideas.
quote:
Originally posted by phil_far
Brian,
Visit this ste: http://www.best-guess.co.uk/westfield_turboblade/
You will see what a good turbocharged blow through bike engien is really like let aloen a fuel injected on
However it also shows you how ineffectiev air/air cooling in a seven is, and how much more affecient water injection is
Great car, excellent bloke and loads of ideas.
I have to admit I am following this thread with great interest.
If any of you folks do go ahead and fit a supercharger let us all know how you get on and document how you did it please?
The thought of an extra 40bhp for 2-300quid has me foaming at the pedal!
All the best
Ali
Isn't the supercharger a roots type? most of those have a integral heat exchanger, which forces you to go air/water. I'm running an air/air flat mounted between the front end
Alister,
Will do, though your comment on 2-300 quid is a bit optimistic...
Tigris,
The M45 is indeed a Roots type, but there is no built in heat exchanger.
Brian
how do you plan to mount this to the intake? and waht type of drive will you use to spin the blower??
I won't actually mount it to the intake, but rather mount it 'above' the transmission of the motor. The output of the Supercharger will
go to the intercooler and then return to a custom plenum which will feed the Throttle bodies. As for driving it, I would have to fabricate a pulley
mount that would replace the bolt on the crankshaft end where the 'rotor' attaches. The biggest difficulty here I think would be to create a
decent oil seal for the mount where it passes thru the cover. Perhaps a bearing that fits into a rubber bushing that would replace the 'thread
in' cover.
T
[Edited on 23/9/04 by Tralfaz]
[Edited on 23/9/04 by Tralfaz]
At what stage in the build are you?
Brian,
Do you have thebook written by Joe Haile:
Turbocharging, Supercharging and Nitrous Oxide?
The quality of the information is second to none!
This is were a student turbo charged his Kawasaki 750 using stock compression/pistons using a Garrett T2 and did all the stuff himself. The result is
150bhp motor at 6psi!!
There are loads of valuable diagrams and its designed purely for bike engines
Another interesting site is this: www.situne.com an Escort Mk2 with a turbocharged Fireblade engine. There are some interesting videos and the guy
from Norway (I think) homebrewed his turbo. Weighing in at 700kg the car performs really well
" target="_blank">http://www.tts-performance.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=509&PHPSESSID=df648f54b43316846a8429bf48731a9d
Thanks Guys!!
Tigris,
Chassis is done, Engine and driveline are in. Presently in the process of completing fuel system and exhaust.
A good bit left to go.
Maybe next summer (late)....
Brian
Just a note.
I just received an email from a guy with a Turboed R1 bike who is using doubled up head gaskets to reduce compression. The resulting compression is
10.1 to 1.
He has run the bike for 9500 miles at .7 bar with no problems.
Cool..
Brian
Any more ideas about this ?
I want to supercharge an injected R1 to get more torque low down. However I don't want to spend more than a hayabusa would cost. So an Eaton M45
would fit my (future) middy perfect. But I need to make room for it during design of chassis (now).
So the question is, will it boost enough to make worthwhile ?
Cheers
