A bit of a challenge...

This is possibly off at a bit of a tangent for all the sports car fanatics on here, but I think it's in the spirit of 'locosting' and hopefully it will spark off a bit of discussion.

If you were given the target of designing and building the ultimate commuter vehicle, how would you go about it and what would it be like? What would your priorities be. What fuel would you use?

The ground rules:

- More than two wheels. Obviously the ultimate commuter vehicle is a Honda C90 or CG125, but there's always going to be some silly people who aren't prepared to get their bike licence.

- I'm talking about ultimate in the sense of cheapness to run (and build), not performance, although it would be interesting to see what minimum performance criteria people would put on it.

- I'm mainly thinking about commuting into and around a city, not super high mileage motorway commutes where the requirements are somewhat different.


Get debating!

Interesting question...

I don't have time right now for a full answer but here are some thoughts in no particular order:

1. LPG fuel

2. Three wheels ideally for efficiency but may not be popular so perhaps four..

3. Efficient 4 stroke engine with enough power to reach, say, 50 MPH. Engine should switch off when no power is called for - perhaps using a freewheeling flywheel to restart the engine. Engine should be thoroughly silenced.

4. Perhaps use a CVT type transmission to keep the engine in best efficiency RPM band.

5. Two seats (Controls can be moved to either side)

6. Range should be 100 miles or more between refuelling.

Cheers,
Craig.

Something with a bit more protection than a motorbike, i think thats what puts most people off them.

Also maybe hi lo gearboxes, just a lever to change the final drive ratio would be good, so that it would be nippy round town, but could be comfortably used for motorsway stretches if need be.

already designed the ultimate commuter vehicle. Called the Com-V (Groan!)

See pics.
Rescued attachment com-v1.jpg

another
Rescued attachment com-v2.jpg

and more
Rescued attachment com-v3.jpg

nearly there
Rescued attachment com-v4.jpg

done.
Rescued attachment com-v5.jpg

the above model was made by me as part of my degree in product design. Carbon fibre monocoque with an electric motor inside the monocoque. Aluminium folding mechanism.

Wait till you see the bodywork design for the Hammerhead!!

Yeah it would need to be fully enclosed for weather protection, personal protection and aerodynamics if it was to appeal to the general public.

they have a car just like that.............its called the SMART but people are to stupid to see beyond the boastwhatsonmydrivewayinfrontofmybarrethouse.
to go with them.
I got a smart from work for a few days and I loved it....12 quid to fill it up and great for parking. Nipping thru the traffic in Edinburgh great fun. I will be replaceing the present mondeo with a smart next year.

yes but if its the ultimate commuter, you need to be able to take it on trains etc.

Got to be something like the old bubble car (in line not side by side) but updated in terms of design, strength and economy with something like a 1.0l turbo diesel engine you might be able to get a certain amount of performance when you want it with economy when you don't.

With cars half as wide you could fit twice as many in..

Much better than the governments plan of adding lanes and roads that don't even achieve status quo by the time they are finished.

[Edited on 11/4/06 by pajsh]

I was thinking about the bodywork.

I don't think the aerodynamics factor is critical around town. Yeah it starts to kick in a bit more outside town but you'd have to be quite clever and probably compromise on quite a lot of other things to get a good aero shape. The main thing is you'd end up dripping the seating position down to the floor to reduce frontal area, which isn't ideal in a town car.

Full weather protection would probably be necessary for a mass market vehicle, as would heating, stereo, and all sorts of other nonsense that would add weight and cost fuel.

At least partial protection (frontal and overhead) would be enough for me in a self built vehicle.

Perhaps some sort of modular bodywork that could be stripped down for the summer?

quote:

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Originally posted by mangogrooveworkshop
they have a car just like that.............its called the SMART

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At least you could improve on the Smarts gearbox quite easily, with e.g. a couple of pulleys and rubber band.

I agree, when I mentioned aerodynamics I was thinking more in terms of stability and a smooth shape (ie. enclosed cockpit) not high speed aerodynamics.

quote:

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Originally posted by pajsh
Got to be something like the old bubble car (in line not side by side)
...

With cars half as wide you could fit twice as many in..

---

What about some sort of egg-shaped passenger compartment made from GRP / CF / kevlar on a cheap, easy-to-make steel tube chassis. One of those 3-cyl turbo engines from a Japanese microcar (Cappucino / S-Car Go or similar) could provide motive power, rear-mounted and with a CVT transmission, and re-tuned to run on one of these part-alcohol, part-petrol mixes. The "egg" would be pointy-end first and the top half would be a polycarbonate moulding giving good all-round visibility. I'd rob bits off tiny Daihatsus and Suzukis to get lightweight wheels, brakes and so on.

Eddy

I'm not sure that many people would want to drive a super economy car. I think it might be viewed as indicating lack of success.
If however it were given a more positive spin then it might work.
Thus I would suggest that it should be :
Cool
Sporty (as in good acceleration and fab, fun handling).
Adequately practical
Inexpensive to buy
Cheap to run.

Of all of these, I suspect that coolness would be the most important.

How about something a bit like this?
Rescued attachment 500fun9.jpg

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonBowden
I'm not sure that many people would want to drive a super economy car. I think it might be viewed as indicating lack of success.
If however it were given a more positive spin then it might work.
Thus I would suggest that it should be :
Cool
Sporty (as in good acceleration and fab, fun handling).
Adequately practical
Inexpensive to buy
Cheap to run.

Of all of these, I suspect that coolness would be the most important.

---

shame the G-Whiz looks like a mobility vehicle.

//////don't know how I got above you James//////

[Edited on 11/4/06 by Hammerhead]

[Edited on 11/4/06 by Hammerhead]

http://www.goingreen.co.uk/?PageID=AboutGWiz


Interesting article about it on the BBC from the program In Business:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/inbusiness_20051020.shtml


Emission free, costs 20p to fill up and sticks a couple of fingers up at the oil companies, the Middle East and the big motor companies. Yay!


Cheers,
James

[Edited on 11/4/06 by James]

[Edited on 11/4/06 by James]

We're moving to a small town this spring, and I've been thinking of this very subject! The vehicle I envision is sort of like a 4 wheeled gasoline assisted pedal car.

My requirements so far are:

dual-fuel (Gasoline and FOOT power)
4 bicycle tires - cheap to replace, brakes attached
2 seats, recumbant style
room for a week of groceries in the back
efficient 4-stroke engine with a good muffler

That's the basic design. Further improvements could include:

covered crew/cargo compartment for rainy travel,
electric motors instead of gas - allows for a flywheel and regenerative braking,
conventional shifter/clutch arrangement instead of the clunky derailler system used on bicycles.

I plan to find a cheap lawnmower engine (4 stroke preferred), weld up a chassis, and add the bike tires and pedals from a couple of used bicycles.
Estimated costs:
steel - 10 bucks
lawnmower - 20 bucks
2 bicycles - 20 bucks
other bits - 10 bucks

Even the steel from the bicycles could be recycled and used for chassis bits. I think the estimate of $60 is a bit high even.

If you wanted to get it road-legal, that's another story... May have to go as high as $200.

1/2 scale seven with a lawnmower engine and bike tires?

quote:

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Originally posted by James

Emission free, costs 20p to fill up and sticks a couple of fingers up at the oil companies, the Middle East and the big motor companies. Yay!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wildchild

I'm not convinced by a pure electric vehicle but it's got me thinking on the possibility of a hybrid vehicle. How about something that could do say..

30 miles on pure electric at up to 40mph
200 miles at up to 60/70mph on a tank of some combustible liquid.

Managing rolling changeovers between the two would be the biggest challenge methinks.

---

Why try and redesign what is available already?

Try a classic Mini, but it does need a more efficient modern engine.

I've been involved in an electric project for a few years. Hybrid with a small diesel hooked up to a generator is the most useable.

And, electrics are not pollution free! They just move the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the power house. Unless you have a hydro station/wind turbine/solar/ other source than fossil fuel, to charge it up.

Cheers,
Syd.

Main reason for me to build a custom chassis would be that I think it should definitely weigh less than 400kg (as an absolute maximum). There's not many cars that you would be able to strip down to that!

Oh, and I'm 6'4, which makes a Mini a little bit uncomfortable!

My commute is 3 miles each way,. Technically, I could get away with cycling, except I don't have a bicycle and don't want to damage the environment by getting someone to mine the steel to make it with

"Emission free, costs 20p to fill up and sticks a couple of fingers up at the oil companies, the Middle East and the big motor companies. Yay! "

James

There's nowt wrong with them, if that's your gripe. You'd be better pointing a finger at No11 (Gready Bastard, sorry Gordon Brown) who takes about 75p in the pound for doing NOTHING. At least the oil co's dig the stuff out of the ground and who face big tax bills without the Chancellor increasing cost 4 fold

My idea for an EFV (but bear in mind I think the whole global warming thing is a load of old nutsack anyway (very effecient way of increasing tax!) would be two s/hand bicycles welded togther. Couple of car batteries to power, solar panel on roof.

Simple really

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, if we use more oil and empty the resevoirs, we'll have huge holes where we can put all the melted ice caps

ATB

Simon




[Edited on 13/4/06 by Simon]

As odd as it sounds, electric vehicles are weighed WITHOUT the batteries. Thus making a small commuter vehicle under 400kg's is easy, and it goes into dvla as a 'lightweight quadricycle'. Much easier rego rules and simpler sva.

Cheers,
Syd.

I think if I was going to try and make a hybrid I would probably put it through SVA before fitting any of the electric drive stuff.

Isn't there a very restrictive maximum power on quadricycles?

quote:

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Originally posted by wildchild
I think if I was going to try and make a hybrid I would probably put it through SVA before fitting any of the electric drive stuff.

Isn't there a very restrictive maximum power on quadricycles?

---

It's more of an intellectual exercise than a serious project at the moment - I've got to get the Seven built and out of my dad's garage first!

But it's definitely something I'd like to have a go at in the future. I figure if I start thinking about it now, I might have a fairly sorted design in my head/on paper by the time I can actually commit to it.

I've just been looking at the notes for the Motorcycle SVA here:

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/forms/application%20for%20ministers%20approval%20certificate%20for%20vehicles%20(msva%201).pdf

and it defines a heavy quadricycle as

weight - up to 400kg
power - up to 15kW

while a motor tricycle is

weight - up to 1000kg
power - no limit.

so if you have 4 wheels, you have the power limit.

I imagine you could get round this by putting it in as an electric vehicle (as I imagine the electric side of the hybrid setup would be less than 15kW), but what would be the legal/registration implications of adding an IC engine post SVA? Would it stop being a quadricycle?


edit: or of course, you could make it a three wheeler, but I've said before I think a fairly high driving position is important in a commuter vehicle, so i'd be worried about trying to build a stable 3-wheeler.

[Edited on 18/4/06 by wildchild]

just spotted this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4930794.stm

might be useful/interesting reading?

dihatsu charade?

quote:

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Originally posted by ned
just spotted this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4930794.stm

might be useful/interesting reading?

---

Looks well cool to me.
As another way to achieve the lean in corners, what happens if you put the roll centre above the centre of gravity ?

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=19502

I think you could probably make it 'work', but you might get some interesting characteristics and you'd want to make sure it was well damped.

I wonder as well if you could make it tilt like a bike (ie manual control of angle) but with some sort of power assistance.