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eaton supercharger
Stuart_B - 2/10/09 at 04:45 PM

hi all, i have a nice duratec engine now, and getting ready for the winter projetc coming from a 1.6 pinto, to a 2.0 duartec, but this is maybe next year upgrade, of supercharing it, so i know eaton say you can use the eaton m45 between 1.0 and 2.0 engine, but will give acuutal be ok, and give the power gain i want?

as i know it is used on 1.6 and 1.8, jsut wondering does sombody use it on a 2.0?

thanks

stuart

goaty - 2/10/09 at 04:54 PM

fitting it in the engine bay will be your main issue.
Eatons are good but they produce alot of heat compared to others on the market.Being cheap is there advantage in my eyes.

Stuart_B - 2/10/09 at 05:02 PM

packaging issue, i think i can fit the m45, under the throttle bodies on the passengers side of the car, and get the pipes made up ali.

heat wise, i think the new 5th gentrartion have a differnt coating, so run cooler, but what temp of heat are we talking about, would it affect the fuel, if it is placed below the throttle bodies?


cheers

staurt

flak monkey - 2/10/09 at 05:08 PM

The eaton M45 is a substantial beast. I looked at fitting one under the bonnet with the pinto but it was a no hoper.

Remember you have the inlet on the back end and the outlet is on one of the bigger flat sides.

THey also need to run the right way up IIRC due to the gearbox oil.

David

Stuart_B - 2/10/09 at 05:14 PM

me and my mate where disscusing that today at collage, but seeing he is a good metal fabicator, and i am learing we reckoned it can be overcome.

about which way up it goes, which way is the right way, as i might be looking them fitting it wrong, and pics with arows will be great.

stuart

Benzine - 2/10/09 at 05:27 PM

I was pretty sure you could fit them anyway up :/ maybe not...

flibble - 2/10/09 at 05:32 PM

I used an m45 on a 2.5 v6 (Mazda KLDE)and it coped fine for a meagre 7psi, no issues at all. That was also spinning at nearly 17000 rpm at max revs when the safe limit was written as 15000 ish.
Only used it for a few thousand miles as was more to prove a point that it can be done for less than the £2k that some forum chavs insisted was minimum - cost about £400 all in all (including a wideband), although was a bit of a backyard special, lol

clairetoo - 2/10/09 at 06:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flibble
I used an m45 on a 2.5 v6 (Mazda KLDE)and it coped fine for a meagre 7psi, no issues at all.

Now that is interesting - got any pictures or idea of what sort of power it made ?

MikeRJ - 2/10/09 at 07:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Stuart_B
hi all, i have a nice duratec engine now, and getting ready for the winter projetc coming from a 1.6 pinto, to a 2.0 duartec, but this is maybe next year upgrade, of supercharing it, so i know eaton say you can use the eaton m45 between 1.0 and 2.0 engine, but will give acuutal be ok, and give the power gain i want?


Without knowing the power gain you want, it's hard to say

flak monkey - 2/10/09 at 07:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by flibble
I used an m45 on a 2.5 v6 (Mazda KLDE)and it coped fine for a meagre 7psi, no issues at all.

Now that is interesting - got any pictures or idea of what sort of power it made ?


I would expect that it would make 50% up on whatever it was putting out NA with 7psi of boost

Oh and Stuart an M45 is fine for a 2 litre engine. 15000rpm max input speed should allow you to get up to around 12psi I should think.

David

clairetoo - 2/10/09 at 07:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by flibble
I used an m45 on a 2.5 v6 (Mazda KLDE)and it coped fine for a meagre 7psi, no issues at all.

Now that is interesting - got any pictures or idea of what sort of power it made ?


I would expect that it would make 50% up on whatever it was putting out NA with 7psi of boost

Mmmmmmmmmm..................interesting

Benzine - 2/10/09 at 07:34 PM

god i love superchargers & locostbuilders

definitely not drunk atm!

ss1turbo - 2/10/09 at 07:50 PM

I'd almost forgotten about the M45 i have hiding away for a "rainy day" project..

Silly buggers time here - which order do you run them if you want sequential? Turbo then supercharger i guess as the Eaton s/c is a postive displacement unit.

Second silly question - do you need to bleed the air off when running at idle/cruise?

Sorry for the thread hijack..

BenB - 2/10/09 at 08:05 PM

Would have thought the M45 would be a bit small for 2.0L engine.... Depends how many PSI you want to blow....

flibble - 2/10/09 at 08:05 PM

quote:

Now that is interesting - got any pictures or idea of what sort of power it made ?


Never had it dynoed(sp?) so it's all guesswork but It never used to spin its wheels past first but would spin in second and sometimes chirp them in third if you tried hard enough with the charger on.

I very much doubt I got 50% extra on the 160hp standard, maybe 40-50hp more at the top? (with the obvious torque increase at the bottom being more noticeable).

No intercooler and for fuel I used 2 cold start valves with seperate pressure switches, one came in at 2psi, the second at 6psi, afr wandered around 11.5 - 13 so not too bad for a cheap project

I'll try and find some old piccies of it even though it wasn't pretty, lol.

Edit:
quote:

Second silly question - do you need to bleed the air off when running at idle/cruise?


Yes, and make sure it's a recirc type or you'll drive everywhere with a very loud pssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh until you floor the accelerator

[Edited on 2/10/09 by flibble]

ss1turbo - 2/10/09 at 08:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flibble
quote:

Second silly question - do you need to bleed the air off when running at idle/cruise?


Yes, and make sure it's a recirc type or you'll drive everywhere with a very loud pssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh until you floor the accelerator

[Edited on 2/10/09 by flibble]

I take it there's a specific valve for s/c applications then - not a turbo-style one (as they only kick in at very high vacuum figures)?

flak monkey - 2/10/09 at 08:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ss1turbo

I take it there's a specific valve for s/c applications then - not a turbo-style one (as they only kick in at very high vacuum figures)?
#

Nope you just run a std BOV exactly the same as a turbo one. It shouldnt blow all the time unless you floor it, as flibble says unless there is something wrong with the valve. It will only let the pressure escape under high vac (ie when the throttle is closed quicky).

There is no need to vent boost at idle or cruise as their wont be very much as engine speed will not be high enough.

David

flibble - 2/10/09 at 08:38 PM

I'm pretty sure on mine that it used to vent pretty much all the time unless you were hard on the accelerator, I remember forgetting to hook up the BOV properly once and when I started the car the idle was enough to pop off the hoses to the throttle.
If you unhooked the recirc pipework you could hear it vent until you put your foot down, it is afer all kicking out 7psi from pretty much idle to redline?!?

flak monkey - 2/10/09 at 08:59 PM

Nope supercharger should build boost with rpm. Youll get virtually no boost at tickover up to max at redline. Should be reasonably linear between the 2.

BOV certainly shouldnt vent under any conditions other than high vaccum.

Sounds like something wasnt right with your set up somewhere.

ss1turbo - 2/10/09 at 09:04 PM

Depends on the supercharger - positive displacement (like the Eaton) or a centrifugal (like a Sprintex)..

flak monkey - 2/10/09 at 09:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ss1turbo
Depends on the supercharger - positive displacement (like the Eaton) or a centrifugal (like a Sprintex)..


Doesnt matter, neither will produce much boost at low rpm

A positive displacement blower will produce more boost at lower revs than a centrifugal yes, but this is coped with through tuning and boost still rises with rpm.

There is no need to vent boost unless on overrun.

Stuart_B - 3/10/09 at 05:48 AM

thanks for the good info, i have been strugling to find good info,

so 50% sounds good to me.

cheers

stuart

Mave - 3/10/09 at 07:04 AM

I know of two 2.0 Zetecs running an M45. The engines are stock. One has 203 bhp (search for "zetec supercharger" on youtube and you'll find it). The other one has 213 bhp. So yes, 50% increase sounds about right.

I'm in the middle of such a conversion myself.

But you can't place the charger in front of the throttle bodies. TB has to be in front of charger on an Eaton (positive displacement charger).

flibble - 3/10/09 at 07:35 AM

quote:

Doesnt matter, neither will produce much boost at low rpm


I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with that.

The M45 etc are fixed displacement air pumps, not compressors - for each revolution of the engine they kick out a fixed amount of air, every rev of the engine requires a fixed amount of air., at 1 rpm or 10,000 the bosst calculates to the same result (althhough in reality it does vary a small amount from idle to redline).
I've been wrong before though

MakeEverything - 3/10/09 at 10:21 AM

The M45 will work on 2.0L to 3.0L cars.

Look Here for more information.

Ive been looking to put mine on the 1.8 Zetec (130ps) that i have, and the possibilities of twin superchargers. Look at the supercharger map. Its confusing to start with, but once you learn what youre looking at it will tell you what you need to do for pulley sizes, and how much Pressure Ratio and boost you will get at certain speeds.

On the left, there is also a calculator to tell you what you should get theroetically...

[Edited on 3/10/09 by MakeEverything]

[Edited on 3/10/09 by MakeEverything]

MakeEverything - 3/10/09 at 10:37 AM

Oh, no its not, its Here.

ss1turbo - 3/10/09 at 06:12 PM

Having done some extensive googling this morning, it looks like the way to run a positive displacement charger like the M45/M62 is to have the throttle body before the supercharger, but the jury seems mixed on the need for a bypass valve. The main advantage seems to be reduced fuel consumption when cruising/idle/low throttle openings.

The original throttle body can be either replaced with an adaptor (piece of plate with a tube welded on etc), or just remove the butterfly for a locost alternative..but then you need a new throttle body before the supercharger!

jacko - 3/10/09 at 07:23 PM

Or a 2in su carb

MakeEverything - 3/10/09 at 08:10 PM

You should get away with a single TB on the inlet to the supercharger.

Whats the bypass valve for? - Smooth idle?

ss1turbo - 3/10/09 at 08:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Whats the bypass valve for? - Smooth idle?

Reducing pumping losses when you don't need it (read improve fuel economy) - in thats case, not really a problem

MakeEverything - 3/10/09 at 08:38 PM

i wouldnt bother.

My car only does 75mi to the tank!! I filled it up from almost empty today (only a gallon or so left) and it cost me 23 quid for 99RON.

quikishsilver - 16/12/10 at 06:56 PM

Hi people of locostbuilders.

New to the site, but looking to hopefully gain some of your guys technical knowledge and maybe lend a hand if i feel knowledgeable enough to do so.

So,i know this is a bit of a thread resurrection but I hate people that repost already covered topics.

Did the bypass regarded question ever have a conclusion?

As both i and a friend a looking into using the Eaton M62 to Supercharge our soon to be bought, TU5JP4 lumps out of the C2 vts's .

Upon reading this thread, i posted a question over to him regarding as to what his thoughts were about the topic, and we went through the pro's and cons.

but it's the same bypass issue that would crop up..

Any thoughts,suggestions or questions around final specs if required please post them up..

Thanks
Marc

Stuart_B - 16/12/10 at 08:26 PM

hi, i never got to do it, as i was uninsurable, because of my age, and that was just for a 2.0l.

sorry i can not be much use

stuart