Im now looking at fitting an Audi s4 v6 2.7 ltr twin turbo into my Minotaur,
Assuming i can get it to fit by rerouting a few things it would appear i may have a few more issues to deal with i.e I popped into see my friends at challis autos (they are very into cars and have recently fitted NOS to a rs4) and asked there opinion,
they thought it was great but the owner rang the guy that they use for dynos, ecu's etc.
apparently hes a wizard ,
he has said that i would not get away with a cheep ecu (wont be able to use originall ecu apparently) and would need to be spending about 2 grand on it, i think this also includes them programming it also i would need a specially made loom and that would cost me around £700, any body ever done anything like this or does anyone have any ideas input ?
cheers stu

What's wrong with megasquirt?

quote:

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Originally posted by DIY Si
What's wrong with megasquirt?

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ive been told that because it needs to controll the 6 cylinders and the 2 turbos plus flybywire throttle it wont be good enough ?

2K seems far to much to me. Thats about the cost of a mid level Motec etc.

I think the ecu cost comes down to what sensors you want to retain. I dont think many of the less expensive ECU's will read Mass Air Flow. Most work on Manifold Pressure. But both methods work.

If its got Variable Valve timing then some of the cheaper ECU's dont do this, but then again im sure someone's written a patch for Megasquirt by now.

If you looking for proffesional advice call Emerald ECU's etc and speak to them.

Personally i see no reason why it couldnt be done wiht a mega squirt. If theres no pressure tapping on the manifold it would be easy enought to put in, the only change might be to some of the sensors as Mega squirt is mainly based on GM? sensor values and as such some values (like throttle pot) may differ.

As for the loom, its probably less that a couple of hours for a competent electrician. So id think more like a £100 for the loom.

Personally i think you could do the ECU for well under 1K and if all works by you down to 5-700.

Having just read the new post....

Theres nothing to stop you junking the fly by wire throttle. This is something that would have been tied into the original ECU for the traction control etc.


[Edited on 11/12/06 by jono_misfit]

I thought the fly by wire stuff just went to the ecu? If its been removed, surely just use a normal cable? Oh, I didn't realise it was coil on plug, but is it possible to just pulse LT wires to each plug rather than the usual HT?

Ooh, i'd forgotten about the fly-by-wire. Personally i'd try and get rid of that altogether and go back to a 'normal' cable operated throttle, the safety implications if the throttle control goes haywire are worrying (anyone remember that BMW driver about a year back that went screaming up the A1 (I think) at 130 for an hour or so because his fbw throttle stuck open?)

have a look at VEMS.

Playing with this Kit at the moment and i think it will do it.

have a look at V EMS


ATB

Agriv9

Isn't it a v8 in the rs4 rather than a v6?

Might be worth speaking to Marc Norden he was putting one in his tytan demonstrator.

Nope, the OLD S4 has a 250 bhp, twin (bi?) turbo engine, I think the new one has a V8 though.

[Edited on 11/12/06 by DIY Si]

its not a rs4 just an s4 so its 2.7 bi turbo
and if im honest i havent a clue about ecu's i guess it scares the s**t out of me , dont know why just yet another unknown , but its always good to talk to u guys that dont seem to be phased by it , just wish i wasnt guess thats why originally i wanted a small block chevy (ne real electrics) lol

this is what im looking at buying if it fits collecting next weekend for a test fit
:- As standard the engine makes 265bhp but they can easilly make 340 with a chip and exhaust (see MTM or Revo). You will have to do this in your conversion anyway to disable to immobiliser (Revo do this) and make your exhaust system so if you plan on 320 bhp as a minimum you'll not be far off. They can make a lot more if you upgrade to RS4 turbos.

Because its twin turbo it spools up very quickly and reaches peak torque at 1850 rpm onwards - basically these engines pull like a train and don't red line until just short of 7000rpm....they also come with a standard oil cooler and are well known for lasting forever if they are looked after.

The list of parts I have is :-

- Full engine complete with all ancillaries, 1999, 56k miles, new timing belt, new clutch and water pump
- lightened flywheel (brand new still boxed)
- intercoolers and pipes
- standard ECU
- engine loom
- all induction system and sensors
- specially built Audi 01W 2wheel drive gearbox (never run since being built) with special ratios
- spacer plate (required if standard flywheel is used)
- driveshafts
- instrument pack (needed for immobiliser)
- probably loads of bits I've forgotten
- full Audi parts software so you can work out which bolts to use etc!!

Don't worry, I don't know that much about ECU's, but it is only a little computer that runs the engine, nowt scary. Admittedly some manufacturers stuff is very weird, but mainly to stop you playing with it, kind of what you want to do really! Others on here have run V6's with minimal hassle, but yours may be a little more advanced, so may require a little extra hassle, but should be worth it in the end!

yes i agree , how cool to have this monster car with a proper supercar sound and a modern engine instead of the chevy , hopefully it will fit then i will be in a world of poo
will sound well cool with turbos spinning up i have a pic of 1 fitted to an ultima

In which case it may be worth asking Ultima how they did it, or how their customer did it. Didn't realise it had some kinky little covers on it too!

Hi Stu,

The £2K estimate is definitely OTT IMO. Having got a V6 loomed (modded oem) and nailed to an MBE ecu for less than a grand I know it is possible - however mapping might well cost £500 or so due to the complexity of setting up the twin turbos (and the VVT I think)

No need for all the fancy emission controls and security gizmos, so strip it all down to basics and I am sure you will get it running well for around £1500


[Edited on 11-12-06 by RazMan]

The work around that I've used for Audi and Vw coil on plug units when fitting ecus (found out the hard way that DTA ecus don't like them !)is to use double ended Bosch coils and Mk 2 Golf gti 16v leads. you'll need some custom covers/keeper plates to sit where the coils used to. these are easy to make - 6mm ali plate, a scriber, a hacksaw, a file and a couple of drills or I'll let you have a cad drawing.

lol Raz sounds like you have just found yourself a job seeing as you will soon have nothing to fill youre time & budge i havent a clue what you are talking about sorry im in a world i dont understand
btw £1500 sounds do able as the package im hopefully getting is a reasonable deal, remeber tho this is more complex as it has 2 turbos ...

[Edited on 11/12/06 by stulad]

quote:

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Originally posted by stulad
ive been told that because it needs to controll the 6 cylinders and the 2 turbos plus flybywire throttle it wont be good enough ?

---

Agreed, if we can land men on the moon with nothing more than the computing power of a basic calculator ............

The only features which I am unfamiliar with on this engine is the VVT and the fly by wire throttle, which might be controlled by the ecu (I've only just grasped the principles of the overhead cam ) Not sure if MS is capable of taking control of this but in any case I would have thought that a basic aftermarket ecu would be ok with it - you can always retro fit a standard throttle body to simplify things a bit anyway. The twin turbos shouldn't complicate things too much either - aren't they just treated as one (for mapping purposes)anyway?

Mapping is another matter however and is likely to be the biggest hurdle


[Edited on 12-12-06 by RazMan]

It depends on the type of VVT. Some switch "on" at a certain RPM. The mega squirt would just need a change to the code to look for this rpm and then activate and output. It'd possibly need a driver added to the board, but theres a spare area for experimenting isnt there?

Im sure if someone looked on the megasquirt forum then someone will have done it already.

I have been researching this subject myself in some detail recently, as I need to run a pair of rather strange engines in my new project.

I looked at the megasquirt route, but as usual you get what you pay for and this is no exception.

First off with your setup, get rid of the fly by wire and convert to conventional throttle.

Second, call DTAfast and speak to them about using their S60Pro ECU to control the engine. This system is around £750 for the ECU - here's some idea:

ECU Functions


Engine Configuration

20,000 rpm capability
Flexible and easily adapted to different OEM, crank, cam sensor arrangements.
Genuine four and two stroke support.
Twin spark engines.
Twin injector engines.
Sequential or grouped injection.
Individual coils, wasted spark or distributor.
Unequal coil firing capability.
Unequal injection angle capability.
Delayed sequential injection.
User controlled fan activation.
Sensors can be calibrated individually with a lot of preset options supplied.
Flexible Tacho Output
soft and hard rev limits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Main Fuel and Ignition Functions

Two main fuel, spark and turbo maps selected by a dashboard switch.
Comprehensive start up fuelling options both time and temperature dependant.
Air, coolant and manifold pressure compensation maps.
Throttle transient increase compensation.
Throttle transient reduction compensation.
RPM and load breakpoints can be calibrated by the user.
Throttle or MAP as load.
All maps with one or two dimensional with interpolation as required.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lambda control functions

Extensive lambda parameters table to ensure stable closed loop operation and emissions requirements can be met where needed.
Full three dimensional lambda target map.
Auto-tuning function.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turbo Control Functions

Open or closed loop turbo pressure control via PWM valve.
Modify target turbo pressure by gear selected.
Modify target turbo pressure by vehicle speed.
Two control maps selected by switch on dashboard.
Active base PWM map for easy calibration.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Idle Control Functions

Open or closed loop idle speed control via PWM valve.
Closed loop idle target speed temperature dependant.
Active base PWM map for easy calibration.
Fuel enrichment table calibrated versus PWM percentage.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALS Control Functions

Full ALS ignition and fuel maps.
ALS valve control together with map switching controlled
by dash board switch.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cam Control Functions

Open or closed loop cam advance control via PWM valve.
Static offset table to zero out electrical movement effects.
Active Cam Target Advance map, load and speed dependant.
Active base PWM map for easy calibration.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Water Injection

When not being used to control the camshaft, cam base PWM map can be used instead for water injection, giving complete load and speed dependence.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flexible Input/Output

Three uncommitted input tables which use 0 5 volt inputs or any input the S60 knows already, linked to fuel and advance modifiers and a PWM output.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Launch Control

Fully flexible first gear launch capability.
Extensively tunable to individual vehicles.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Full Throttle Gear Shift Cut

Shift cut capability with 1ms resolution, variable for each gear with
full switch de-bounce capability.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Voltage Compensation Tables

User configurable voltage compensation tables for injector dead time
and coil on time (dwell time).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Firmware

The ECU firmware is flash upgradeable via the serial port with a special cable and software. Current firmware and software published on www.dtafast.co.uk.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAN PC Communications.

The ECU can communicate with the PC via our
USB -> CAN converter. This solves the problem
of unreliable USB -> RS232 converters.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Data Logging

Up to thirty six separate items can be logged.
Three user selectable logging frequencies.
Up to nine hours logging capability.
Graphing can be done on-line to the ECU.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diagnostics and Test Features.

Full sensor diagnostics and fault recording.
Extensive engine run time recording at different load and speed conditions.
Ability to exercise injectors and coils without engine running for fault finding.


If you give them a call Alan there will help you out, give him a brief rundown of what you need to do and he will confirm what you need, but the S60 Pro will do it.

Don't cut corners on this, as mapping turbo engines is not an easy task, and very easy to end up with holes in your pistons!!!

You won't find another system for less money that will do the same job, and work straight out of the box.

There are undoubtedly people that could get megasquirt to do the job, but bear in mind that you will need a friendly rolling road to map the engine, and once there, you are paying by the hour. A few hundred saved on the ECU will quickly dissapear at £60 an hour or so on the rollers, if the operator is unfamiliar with the software.

I have used an Emerald in the past and was very pleased both with the unit it's self and the service from Emerald. It is capable of VVC and turbo control. Have alook at
http://www.emeraldm3d.com/
and give them a call

quote:

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Originally posted by martyn_16v
(anyone remember that BMW driver about a year back that went screaming up the A1 (I think) at 130 for an hour or so because his fbw throttle stuck open?)

---

I do remember thinking the same thing at the time, not really suprised to hear that it turned out that way eventually. I think at the time 'they' said that it was an auto and may not have come out of gear at full chat, and he was too worried about PAS/assisted brakes etc going off if he cut the engine. Wasn't too scared to spend f*cking ages on the phone to the AA though...

thanks to everyone for there help but as usuall lucky stu has been shafted again and the guy has changed his mind about selling it (cant bear to part with it apparently),
may go back to chevy option but considering ls1 cheers stu

[Edited on 15/12/06 by stulad]

Can you buy LS1 crate motors still?

I seem to remeber seeing some either LS1's or 6's for sale in crate with...

Engine
Loom
ECU

the comments with it the were assembled, tested and put in boxes for sale.

Cheap / easy way to do them as its all pre-set up

were did u see them for sale ??

Ahem ! How about this then?

cheers Raz right now im so pissed off with my kit... i just want to bury myself under a very large rock, wtf is wrong with ppl?
i may buy a mini 850cc engine and just wet myself laughing at how lame the whole idea is :'(

It is suprising how he changed his mind so quickly - still, think of the info you now have and add that to your pile of experience


....... Oh and a Mini engine ??!!! I think not

Think ive seen a couple crop up on fleabay, but sure i came accross a web site advertising them.

try a google search on LS6 crate motors etc.

No idea on cost though

Try LS power, or if that names wrong, go through the Gardner Douglas website. They sell LS crate engines, although a new LS7 is £12K! But it does have ~500 bhp.

cheers guys I have now been offered an LS1 engine for £500 by a friend of mine , it is a bare engine so im now looking for all the parts to turn it into a complete engine , any ideas? ideally im looking for someone who has a junked engine who is prepared to sell all the ancillaries, if not i have a friend in USA who may be able to find the parts i need , worse case i go carbs and buy them new from summit feeling a lot happier now , i think this may be a better option than the s4 anyway

Last time i went to Emerald Dave Walver had the Audi lump sitting there on the floor. looked very nice he might sell that

I think the Audi would be much better that the Ls1 but thats just me. The V6 TT with a nice exhaust sound sooooooooooo nice

I'd be tempted to strap two sets of bike carbs to it, for simplicity if nowt else, it'll also look rather tasty too! Then all you need is an exhaust made, but I'd imagine that was going to happen anyways. Having said that, you may be able to use one of the GT40 type jobbies, if they're not some ridiculous price.

quote:

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Originally posted by DIY Si
I'd be tempted to strap two sets of bike carbs to it, for simplicity if nowt else, it'll also look rather tasty too!

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keep it simple and cheap with an LS1, or, depending on price vs power required, an older HOZZ chevy smallblock.

Not one the Audi, just the LS1, since it's just a bare engine at the mo, he has a free choice of inlet gear, and is looking to keep things cheap. I'd imagine they'd be much cheaper than a full injection system, unless you can get a nice cheap mega squirt. Although I don't know how much they'd be to fit a V8.