I bought the book and now I want to build the car. Can anyone tell me if it is feasable to use a Peugeot 405 Mi16 4x4 as a doner? Has anyone done this before? Am I just being a looney?

Woah!! There's a 4WD 405 MI16?

...hasty internet research...

Damn, there is. Looks awesome, especially the T16! I want one as my road car.

Anyway, couldn't find out for sure, but being a FWD car as standard, wouldn't it have a transverse engine? If so, you definately wont be able to shove that running gear in a Locost chassis as it is.

If you want to make a 4WD Locost (like me and a couple of others are doing), then I'm pretty sure the Ford Sierra/Cosworth 4x4 running gear is the only stuff suitable (short of sending Quaiffe a blank cheque). I did a fair bit of research on that whilst planning my build.

If you are thinking of a standard RWD Locost, then the 405 4x4 gearbox will almost certainly be unsuitable. Good engine though, and the rear diff/driveshafts may well be suitable for an IRS chassis - very unique too.

Hope that helps,

Liam

quote:

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Woah!! There's a 4WD 405 MI16?

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Thanks for your help guys, I am a bit of a Peugeot fan, I have had a 504, 305, 7 405s three Mi16 all 4wd and a 405 Le Mans, and I currently have two 406s. I know where I can get a Mi16 for free and being Scottish it just seems like a waste to turn it down. I'll give the 4wd build a go and see what happens, if it goes wrong at worst I can build a new chassis for a Ford engine.

http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/uk/auction/66656177

Nice example.

Also someone on here said that the Mi16 will bolt up to a SD1 gearbox using a LDV Pilot van bellhousing...

quote:

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Of course, assuming it's not physically too big, there's no reason why you can't use the 405's 4WD system to built a 4WD Locost and

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Ooh missed a couple of posts whilst typing that last one.

Colin, I'm very interested to know any details of the Pug 405 4x4 running gear.

Is it full time (ie centre, front and rear diffs), or is it one of those part time systems that is FWD until the front wheels spin, then a viscous coupling sends power to the rear wheels - like Cavalier 4x4 and Audi A3 Quattro (not a propper Quattro - doesn't deserve the badge), and some others?

Liam

The Mi16 suspension uses Citroen hydraulic suspension, hence the "adjustable" ride height
Running gear spec here http://www.peugeotclub.org/peugeot/archive/405/2001/Jan/0003.html

It's only the T16 that uses the adjustable suspension. The Mi16 is self levelling but not hydraulic.

I stand corrected

I was under the (misguided) impression that the Mi16 4x4 used the Cit gear too.

Sorry to have mislead...

Hi

Sorry to take so long to reply, I work away and only get home at the weekends.
The Mi16 is a constant 4wd, produces around 160 bhp in an untuned state and will scare some sports cars. The engine is tall about the same as a dohc Sierra although it is a lot lighter.
I have decided to use the Mi16 engine matched to a Ford gearbox and diff etc any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I also have access to a H reg 2.0i Granada, is this the same running gear as a Sierra? Or am I being stupid again?

Cheers
Colin

Hi there Colin - no probs.

Right i see - the Mi16 should make a great engine choice for a locost. If you're lucky, there will already be a kit to fit the Mi16 to a RWD ford gearbox (I think this engine is reasonably popular in the kit car world ??). If not you'll have to make an adaptor plate (like I'm doing) or modify the ford bellhousing.

Yup the Granny running gear is the same as the sierra running gear - even the same track width. Only difference is the granada has 5-stud hubs. You can find some 4-stud sierra hubs and use those, or just use the 5-studs I s'pose.

If you are thinking of big power though, it may be worth seeking out a diff from a 4x4 sierra/scorpio or a cosworth, as they are LSDs.

Hope that helps

Liam

Cheers Liam

As you will have probably guessed I am not really car minded, motorbikes are my forte, I know nothing about chassis or suspension etc. So I hope you will be using this site for another year or so. One more question, you wouldn't happen to know where I could get hold of a set of cad files for the Locost chassis? I will need to lengthen it and wided it by lord knows how much.

Cheers and thanks
Colin

can i put 2pence worth in ?..........
if ya in to bikes "put a bike engine in" you will find it easier, lighter, oh and just a tad faster.....

Lol - you'd have the lot of us using bike engines...

Personally I prefer the feeling of a wall of brutish torque, as offered by a largeish capacity car engine. And nothing beats the sound of a strong V6 singing.

Having said that, driving my mates bike engined locost before he sold it was an incredible experience. 12000 rpm is a pretty special sound in anyone's book - even if it's produced by a paltry 4 cylinders . It didn't feel so strong at high speeds though.

Each to his own...

Liam

spot on M8, just got back from yorks meet, 7 cars there i think,

1x rover V8
1x blade
1x pinto
rest crossflow......but all loved by there proud owners.......long live the Locost.

Actually it was mentioned tonight, all the cars there where home built, all used the same book, no two looked the same

the moral .....do ya own thing

Try looking around the HotRod world for a bell housing to fit Peugeot to Ford gearbox.
There was a guy a couple of years ago making them as Peugeot engines became popular in hot rods.Take a look at a few back issues of cars and car conversions, was in there.

I am also building a locost and am planning to use a MI16 engine i have a BMW gearbox, diff, etc, but dident fancey using the straight 6 (far to heavy) im actually trying
to find the dimensions of the MI16 (early ali block type) and dimensions of the output end so i can see if the BMW gearbox will fit with an adaptor plate. Cna you help?

Liam

The Mi16 is about as popular as stinging nettle keks in the kit car world.

If you are desparate to use it (and it sounds like a good engine) use the heavyweight Rover LT77 and a Diesel LDV200/Pilot bellhousing.

Kinda spoils things with that heavy gearbox though. As for a kit for a Ford box though, not a chance. I've been looking since Flowtech disappeared off the map

Thanks for the info Dave, whats to stop me making a adaptor plate to fit the MT75 gearbox? If I was to make a plate or use a Rover gearbox what about the input/lay shaft will this fit the Mi16 engine. (Seriously showing my lack of car knowledge)
Glen, keep in touch, I have my Mi16 stored about 50 miles from the house but I will try and measure the engine dimensions for you.

Cheers

You can make an adaptor plate to fit the MT75 if you want, there's nothing stopping you. It's not the hardest thing in the world, but the real problem is with adding someting to the length of the bellhousing, you run a real risk (in fact you WILL) of not having enough length in the first motion shaft to plug into a clutch. Clutches can usually be fathome out by using the release bearing from a Ford (if you use a Ford box) a Peugeot cover, and a Ford plate.

A quick peruse of the Quinton Hazel online catalogue will tell you how many splines the Ford box has (usually 23 these days), and how big the cover is on the Pug, so you can mix and match yourself a clutch kit to fit.

If you use the Rover box, you won't have any problem at all, as the LDV van that you will be liberating the bellhousing off to mate the engine up to the Rover box has the same bottom end. A clutch is off the shelf at your local LDV dealer, or at Halfords.

Thanks Dave, I actually understood all that which is no mean feat. Perhaps I am going about this all the wrong way. The Mi16 I have is a 4X4 with IRS. Is there anything (here I go again) to stop me junking the front diff and the transfer box and running the prop shaft straight to the rear diff, thus keeping the existing Peugeot gearbox and clutch? Am I being a loony again or does this sound feasible? I am off to buy a workshop manual (any workshop manual) to find out how these four wheel things work.

Colin,

Yes, I can ramble on a bit. It's my over creative mind you see. That sounded perfectly rash to me as I typed it, but having gone back, it seems like 200words of gobbeldegook......

As for the Pug, I'm assuming that the gearbox is Transverse (i.e. across the car). If so, then you can't use it, as it won't go under the bonnet. The other problem is, if it is longitudinal (i.e. front to back), then you will find that the transfer box will probably split the power 34/66 F/R, so not all the power goes down to the back. The front output shaft that would have fed the front axle will also not be happy flailing arround with no load, and things could get messy indeed.

If you are after a real easy life, I'd be hammering on the door of my nearest LDV breaker.......

I didn't mean that you were rambling, I meant that with my obvious lack of automotive knowledge that I understood it quite clearly. I even understood your reply, pretty obvious if I had thought about it, if it was that easy to use a FWD engine everybody would be doing it. One last question (for today) what gearboxs do the Ford diesel cars use? As this was a Peugeot engine until a few years ago might I be able to use it without to much trouble. If you answer no this time I am going to use the SD1 and the LDV, I promise.

Don't deny it! I do ramble!. I have this fish........

Hmmm, good question. It's the Ford Type 9, with the removeable bellhousing. I dunno if the 2.1/2.3/2.5 blocks were the same as the 1.9 though. Might be worth investigating if they are, as that saves using the SD1 box.

I'll go have a sniff round and see what I can come up with.

Cheers mate, much appreciated.

Colin,

good news and bad news:

The 2.3 Sierra engine is not an XU engine, it's an XD2, it may have the same bolt pattern, I don't know (still looking). On the plus side, you can have the LT77, using the LDV clutch and bellhousing.

I'm still looking at whether the XD2 engine can swap with the XU engine, I'll let you know how I get on.

Hi Dave or any other interested party. I think I have cracked the gearbox dilema. I came across a company in Kent that will make bellhousings to suit any engine to box combination. Give them the two bellhousings and they will cast a new one. Company name is,
Foundry Workshop
Melvyn Cockell
Unit TC10, Elm Estates
Elm Court
Capstone Road
Gillingham
Kent
ME7 3JQ
01634 404800

Thanks for all your help it is most appreciated. Now I just need to find someone to make me an oversized chassis and I will have cracked it.

Incidently, the LDV was fitted with the 2.3 and 2.5 Peugeot engine as fitted to the Sierra and the Pug 505.

Hi Colin,

Sorry it's been a while, snowed under with work and finally getting made redundant as my company slid under

I had the address you gave, I was trying to find it, but as usual, about as tidy as a hippy in a sandstorm......

There ain't no Ford off-the-shelf bolt up available, as the pug 2.3/2.5 blocks were different. Oh well, at least you look sorted now....

Sorry to post to an old topic. I got the book but won't start a build for a while (baby, bike project, time, money, etc...). The book says you can modify the spaceframe however you want (within usable reason) so if you want to use an Mi16 engine then why not make a mid or rear engined car?? (PS - I am a bit mad, I just bought a book on how to build your own helicopter, so I may be the only one stupid enough to consider a non front engined kit car)

Hello bob, not in relation to your post, but your not the bob that used to live in yate near bristol are you?

Just a thought, if any of you want a cheaper way of getting a Mi16 engine, it is the same engine as fitted to citreon BX GTi 16v.
I had one years ago and it left my 2.9 xr4 for dead.

Rick

9if my memory is right im near sure ive seen a few rwd 205 rally cars usin the m16
and as most rally cars over here use quaife dog boxs based on the ford caseing im sure they did to so there should be a bellhousin somewhere