For my Gilbern Invader / Jag V6 / RX8 Gbox build, I am a little short on space between the lower chassis rails sine I want AC and Electrics. The
S-Type version of the AJ30 has AC pump on one side and the Alternator on the other. It *just about* fits. But the Alternator is knackered (cracked
casing) so I am v interested in a smaller one. One of those 40A/ Kubota/ Daihatsu / Suzuki devices is *alot* smaller but I am worried about the output
power. I read somewhere that hat these little ones only do 30A at idle
Thing is that output power of all Alternators seems closely tied to overall size so If I want more output I need a bigger unit.
So my question is how much current do I really need? I am planing to use LED lighting so that will help alot but how much electrical power does the
engine need? Seems clear that more cylinders means more ignition, Injection etc. Somewhere else I read that the fuel pump could take as much as 15A
and that the whole thing could be as much as 50A, although not sure if I believe that TBH
I can do the maths on lighting, fans, wipers etc but has anyone actually measured current draw on a running engine with ECU and electric pump?
I guess we could assume it's roughly in proportion to the number of cylinders - ie if there is a 4 cylinder figure avail, simply multiply by 1.5
for a 6 Cyl
One way to measure would be to put large spec Ammeter in series with Alternator and disconnect the battery while running. If mine was running I could
measure myself I suppose, but that's a way off...
On the other hand the Denso 40A item is tiny @under 100m diameter vs the Jag (150A?) being about 135mm. Maybe there are other types somewhere in
between?
[Edited on 1/9/21 by spegru]
Add up the amps require for all items that have an amps rating. Excl starter motor.
For items rated in watts divide watts buy 12 to get amps at 12v
Add the lot together and that is your maximum drain, i.e. that rainy cold night when you have everything switched on.
I struggled with a Denso 40 amp at idle,with headlights on,10inch fan running,small electric water pump flat out etc mine would not hold above 12volts
for long.
I've now fitted a land rover freelander alternator which I think is 110amp and that is spot on,rarely see under 13.6volts even sat idling for
ages.
And that's now with a 14inch fan which is stated to draw over 20amps,a Pierburg EWP that's stated to draw 36amps plus fuel pump,coilpack etc
I fitted the 70amp Denso, it's very little larger than the 40amp.
Thanks 40" & CosKev it would be great to understand exactly how the body size relates to the output. The jag one is 13.5cm and while it just
about fits, any reduction would be welcome. How big would you say the main diameter (excluding mounting brackets) is for yours?
I can do the maths on all the components such as wipers etc but I have no real info on how much an injected engine takes to run itself: ECU Coils
& Injectors etc
One of the issues is finding an ammeter that is 'big' enough to measure the necessary current. Most Multimeters only go to 10A, if that.
So I have just ordered a clamp type meter, that you just hook over the necessary wire, *without breaking into it* in some way - which would be
necessary otherwise. An Item I just found goes to 400A which should be more than enough
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383864193104?hash=item596016c050:g:drUAAOSwqFRgi9vm
Once Ive done the measurements (or if anyone already has such info) I'll do the maths on the ancillaries such as lighting wipers etc, and see if
I can calculate what's needed. Although I don't have a 6 cyl (injected) engine to hand I do have a 4 cyl up and running, and I expect to use
a 1.5 multiplier on whatever that figure is.
injectors/sparks will use very little, 2-3A??
Fuel pump is worth checking, as are wipers, rad fan and heater fan. I assume no electric seats and so on?
I run a denso 40A on my spitfire, halogen headlights, golf fuel pump etc etc.
It has done many trips, including wet at night. Never an issue but I don't have any worry gauges. With LED lamps, I wonder if a 40A would
suffice, but a 70 should be plenty. This also assume a mechanical (not electric) water pump.
The other thing to work out is maximum alternator RPM.
That's another reason why I struggled with idle voltage, as had to be careful not to exceed the max alternator RPM with the engine revving to
7100rpm,so small pulley and small alternator meant idle voltage was a struggle.
On my new engine I've built I've fitted a TTS under drive crank pulley
I’ve have a small 70a Denso style one for mine. If you have the space I would fit what ever was to hand.
Hi BW. It's been a while. What's the body diameter (excluding mountings) of your 70A Denso?
It seems quite possible that alternators are always over rated, perhaps to allow for wear over 100kmiles or whatever. Our Dutton has a tiny 40A
jobbie and it's always been fine It is only a 4Cyl but it does have halogen headlamps - not that it ever gets driven a night!
It will be a few days until my clip on ammeter arrives. Then perhaps I'll be able to test this stuff properly
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
I’ve have a small 70a Denso style one for mine. If you have the space I would fit what ever was to hand.
I'll hang fire on deciding which to go for. I'll take all the available space that's available.If a 40A will do, that's what
I'll use
On the other hand alternative dimensions are always interesting if you have any.
I def wont be using the original S-Type device as the mountings are now unsuitable since I changed the sump over to an X Type one, and anyway
it's broken
I have the aj30 and have a (genuine) Denso 40a alternator and a 74mm pulley. I also have heater, heated seats, wipers, coil on plug, electric water
pump and a very heavy duty spal fan, do have led lights all round. Not had a problem. It maintains over 13v apart from when everything is on
(absolutely everything) and the fan kicks in and it'll dip to 12.7 ish volts.
I was told by a local alternator specialist that a good genuine denso 40a will kick out more like 50+ but there are a lot of crap copies out there. If
and when it does go pop I'll prob fit the 70a version.
I'd be amazed if you ever had a constant draw of more than 30 - 40A. Fuel pump is the single heaviest constant draw, anything that kicks in &
out like cooling fan (typically around 8 - 10A) is fairly irrelevant unless you're planning on sitting in stationary traffic with the engine
running for hours, if it's not quite adequate at idle that should be irrelevant as it will just draw a little power from the battery which is
replaced as soon as the revs go up & alternator power increases.
No. of cylinders doesn't make a lot of difference as ignition/injector loads are all quite small
If you have the room probably better to have a larger, less heavily loaded unit, but if space is really tight 40A should be fine
[Edited on 2/9/21 by russbost]
Re the size I will have a measure at the weekend but body size is very similar to the 40a and lug size just a little bigger.
IMHO, you don’t need to spec the alternator for the absolute maximum drain as it is very unlikely you will ever be running all the items at the same time, sure an electric water pump, twin fans, heater fan, air con and a huge stereo system could drain it but if you have battery in the boot fit a bigger battery to even out the drain
quote:
Originally posted by snapper
IMHO, you don’t need to spec the alternator for the absolute maximum drain as it is very unlikely you will ever be running all the items at the same time, sure an electric water pump, twin fans, heater fan, air con and a huge stereo system could drain it but if you have battery in the boot fit a bigger battery to even out the drain
You need an alternator which will be energised at idle, survive the max rpm (work out the pulley ratios) and provide enough amps to charge the battery
(or at least not discharge it) while you have the fan etc running. A 40amp alternator doesn't produce 40 amps at low rpms.
Have a look at the Brise site, this will give you an idea of current v rpm of the alternator for a 60 amp. https://brise.co.uk/denso-60-amp.html
[Edited on 6/9/21 by jeffw]
It turns out that the clamp meter that I bought only measures AC current so that's not much help to find out the base load requirement from the
engine itself.
Russbost you may be onto the point.
I'd still like to actually measure the load though. Problem is most ammeters do not go high enough.
It seems likely that a shunt resistor is needed so that an 'indirect' measurement using a volt meter can be made (eg 1 Volt across a 1 Ohm
resistor equals 1 Amp) - but the shunt resistor would be in series with the alternator - so it needs to be able to handle the current of ~50A. ie
it's a big one!
Most ammeters will do 10A, if you simply pull fuses from all non essential stuff then you should be able to get a figure for the running engine,
you'll need to "bridge" across the ammeter to start the engine with a jump lead, but once running you should be able to remove the
extra lead & get a running value.
Then turn engine off & remove the remaining fuses, check you have zero draw, then add each fuse in turn & measure the mnax you can draw on
that circuit, ie on lights, sidelights & main beam, on heater blower max speed, wipers, max speed & dry screen etc etc. A few circuits like
rad fan you'll need to bridge the temp switch, but you should then be able to build a complete picture of just what the total load might be.
Don't forget that though theoretically total might involve heater fan on high, wipers on high, fan running, main beam etc etc this is a scenario
which will probably never happen & if it does the chances of you being idling for any time in traffic is virtually nil (you certainly aren't
going to have main beam on & highly unlikely to be using wipers on fast & it won't be on a dry screen!), you only really need to look at
realistic likely situations
Be interesting to see the results
quote:
Originally posted by spegru
It turns out that the clamp meter that I bought only measures AC current so that's not much help to find out the base load requirement from the engine itself.
Hi Gremlin, that meter looks to have an identical casing to mine. Is it the same inside I wonder. Your data sheet is a bit better, but even on this,
it's not very clear what the clamp meter range is - esp on DC Current. Mine doesn't mention DC current at all.
Anyway I did run a test on a 4 cyl engine by inserting a fairly normal 10A multimeter in ammeter mode, in series with the alternator. I got the car
started and then disconnected the battery. The engine kept running purely under Alternator power and the reading was just under 12A.
However if I revved the engine at all it would falter and stall. Not sure if that's because the meter was causing too much resistance at higher
loads (after all it is only rated at 10A). I need a higher rated meter really. I suppose I could use two meters in parallel and add the figures
together..... Incidentally when I tried using the clamp meter onto the alternator I only got a reading of ~2A. but that could just be AC
'noise' on the DC and not a true reading
Anyway 12A for a 4cyl at idle up to ~1500 rpm. This might indicate 18A for a 6cyl but I imagine much of the 12A is the fuel pump (really need to
connect a meter in series with the pump to check that) and it seems unlikely that fuel pump current would scale with number of cylinders.
I'll report back with fuel pump data......
[Edited on 9/9/21 by spegru]
I've just done some more current load testing, (also discovered that I blew a couple of fuses in the meter whiIe was at it yesterday)
I realised that there is no need to disconnnect the battery if you can interrupt the electric feed to the items concerned. I did this at the fuse box,
by puling the fuse and inserting the ammeter into the fuse socket. Just as well for this I have separate fuses for fuel pump and ECU/Coils (shared
fuse)
Fuel Pump load varies quire a bit but seemed to peak/average ~14A although I did see a momentary 18A.
BTW The pump system is a Bosch 044 type and one of those facet solid state jobbies feeding a swirl pot tank from the main tank
I also ran a test on the ECU/Coils that therefore includes ignition and injectors?: (I think those ford Zetec coils are earthed by the ECU and fed
directly but they share the same fuse on this setup)
This showed about 2A at idle rising to ~8A at high revs
No reason to expect Fuel pump load to scale up with the number of cylinders but ECU/Coils/Injectors probably does
So I'm going to hazard that base load for running the engine itself is ~14A+8A = 22A at max revs (when Alternator output is highest) for a 4Cyl
which could equate to 14A + 8x1.5A = 26A for a 6Cyl.
LED lighting aside I can see that Rad Fans/ Wipers etc in addition to this could make the 40A alternators quite marginal - but perhaps could just
about do it if in tip top condition
spegru
PS
I noted that the engine did not falter with increase speed as it did with everything running through the alternator like I did last time and also that
I got a momentary reading of 18A - which indicates that the meter does not max out at 10A as I expected. Probably running everything through the meter
at once as I did yesterday is what was causing that problem, as well as blowing the internal meter fuse.
[Edited on 9/9/21 by spegru]
[Edited on 9/9/21 by spegru]
Its a bad idea to run an alternator without a battery in circuit, so yes testing individual circuits via their fuses is a better way to do it.
you can also measure the voltage drop across the fuse, and get a good indication of the current.
https://www.meeknet.co.uk/E64/Fuse%20Voltage%20Readings%20To%20Give%20Current%20Readings.pdf
this method is particularly useful for testing parasitic loads, because you don't need to break the circuit, and 'wake' systems from
sleep states.
edit, similarly clamp meters have this advantage
[Edited on 9/9/21 by gremlin1234]
Wow that PDF contains a useful chart Ive never seen before. I had no idea that differently rated fuses have a definite resistance.
I'll use that approach another time....
By the way. Since my measurements today, I've discovered that the alternator had a loose mounting bolt which certainly wont have helped get full
output from it. Could well explain the battery charge problems we've been having, and the faltering I got when running without battery connected
yesterday. Luckily though, that doesn't invalidate today's measurements on fuel pump, ECU etc - it's just that some of the load was
likely coming from the battery rather than the alternator
quote:
Originally posted by spegru
Wow that PDF contains a useful chart Ive never seen before. I had no idea that differently rated fuses have a definite resistance.
I'll use that approach another time....
By the way. Since my measurements today, I've discovered that the alternator had a loose mounting bolt which certainly wont have helped get full output from it. Could well explain the battery charge problems we've been having, and the faltering I got when running without battery connected yesterday. Luckily though, that doesn't invalidate today's measurements on fuel pump, ECU etc - it's just that some of the load was likely coming from the battery rather than the alternator
bear in mind that this experiment has been al about getting a smaller alternator for my Jag v6 rather than actually needing to fix the Zetec. It
looks like the tichy 40A job is probably not up to it.
So my next thing is to find another that's smaller than the Jag one. Hard to find alternator measurements so Ive been scaling from ebay photos
based on the size of pulleys in the pics. Are these all the same? My Jag pulley is 60mm diameter
Or is there a better way?
no the pulleys on the alternators are not all the same, I hope starterman will see this and give you some guidance.
It seems the Jag one is 120A rather than 150. I wonder if lower spec ones are *inevitably* smaller and I should just select pretty much any 75A item. Does anyone have a favourite type or measurements of one?
quote:
Originally posted by spegru
I've just done some more current load testing, (also discovered that I blew a couple of fuses in the meter whiIe was at it yesterday)
I realised that there is no need to disconnnect the battery if you can interrupt the electric feed to the items concerned. I did this at the fuse box, by puling the fuse and inserting the ammeter into the fuse socket. Just as well for this I have separate fuses for fuel pump and ECU/Coils (shared fuse)
Fuel Pump load varies quire a bit but seemed to peak/average ~14A although I did see a momentary 18A.
BTW The pump system is a Bosch 044 type and one of those facet solid state jobbies feeding a swirl pot tank from the main tank
I also ran a test on the ECU/Coils that therefore includes ignition and injectors?: (I think those ford Zetec coils are earthed by the ECU and fed directly but they share the same fuse on this setup)
This showed about 2A at idle rising to ~8A at high revs
No reason to expect Fuel pump load to scale up with the number of cylinders but ECU/Coils/Injectors probably does
So I'm going to hazard that base load for running the engine itself is ~14A+8A = 22A at max revs (when Alternator output is highest) for a 4Cyl which could equate to 14A + 8x1.5A = 26A for a 6Cyl.
LED lighting aside I can see that Rad Fans/ Wipers etc in addition to this could make the 40A alternators quite marginal - but perhaps could just about do it if in tip top condition
spegru
PS
I noted that the engine did not falter with increase speed as it did with everything running through the alternator like I did last time and also that I got a momentary reading of 18A - which indicates that the meter does not max out at 10A as I expected. Probably running everything through the meter at once as I did yesterday is what was causing that problem, as well as blowing the internal meter fuse.
[Edited on 9/9/21 by spegru]
[Edited on 9/9/21 by spegru]
quote:
Originally posted by spegru
It seems the Jag one is 120A rather than 150. I wonder if lower spec ones are *inevitably* smaller and I should just select pretty much any 75A item. Does anyone have a favourite type or measurements of one?
Russbost, that 14A was only momentary and may not be that accurate. Also It's actually 2 pumps: an 044 and a Facet solid state. If I was more
sensible than I was on the Zetec vehicle there should only be one - maybe 8-10A normally?
[Edited on 10/9/21 by spegru]
Well my investigations continue without resolution so far. I would be ideal to do some proper measurements and although I have one of those micro
alternators running on a Zetec, unfortunately that setup is not working at present. It failed some time during the summer I think due to a loose
mounting bolt/poor earth. I then obtained a cheap new replacement but that also now appears to be dead, possibly due to incorrect wiring at the
plug
So what I really need is another replacement ASAP. Does anyone have one spare in Essex that I could purloin tomorrow?
spegru
Hi Spegru, I have a couple of Ford alternators off a Zetec SE ( Sigma 1.7 ). I imagine they are the same as a regular Zetec. You are welcome to try one if it helps. I am in Ingatestone near Brentwood.
Hi John, because I was specifically interested in one of those micro alternators in the end I shot off down to Maidstone area yesterday and visited
Car Builder Solutions. And I now have a 14v charge... plus a suspicion that the other unit was not actually faulty....! I'll have a look at that
tomorrow I hope.
Ingatestone eh. We should hook up!
Sorry to hijack slightly but can anyone provide a link or a model no for the 70a denso alternator?
I'd also be interested in info on the 70a Denso (esp the dimensions)