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Midlana book price
scutter - 25/11/13 at 10:48 PM

I know this is a subjective thing, but after reading the progress of Kurt's build with avid admiration and a little desire (ok a lot). He's finally revealed the price of the book, which was on my Xmas list.

The price is $100 or £61. I know he's put a lot of effort into it and he's compared it to other sources of material of a similar type, but I feel the price moves it out of the Nice to have range of books and seriously into the 'If I'm gonna build one, then that's ok'.

Sorry for the mini rant, I'm just a little disappointed at the idea of spending £100 on shipping and VAT for some light reading.

balidey - 26/11/13 at 09:08 AM

I know you said its objective and this is not meant to sound like a rant at your comments, but on his website he states the price and then clearly explains why its that price. Then finally his last line is saying that he thought he should let these reasons be known before

quote:
any commentary regarding price
.

But think about it realistically. Its going to be a small volume print. Its a niche market. Does anyone really expect it to be much below £100?
Lets say it was £80, there would still be people saying it should be less. Same with £60. etc etc.
And you guarantee that in a couple of years there'll be a pdf floating around the internet which means even less revenue to the author and printers.
These people are not doing it to make a loss, they need a profit.
We know you 'can' build a locost for £250. But you don't expect the likes of MK to sell you a kit for £250.

Honestly I think £100 sounds about right.
I probably won't buy a copy, and yes that is mainly because of the price, but I don't know what figure would suddenly make it affordable.

[Edited on 26/11/13 by balidey]

scutter - 26/11/13 at 10:00 AM

I have had a sleep on the matter and post mini rant (it was a rant out of frustration) your comments are quite true.

I still wish to build this after my Alfa 7, So to soften the blow I'll put £5 away a week to pay for it

Still have massive respect for Kurt and fully wish him the best with the sale of the book, just gotta wait 6 months before I get to read it.

Regards Dan.

balidey - 26/11/13 at 10:15 AM

Can I borrow your copy when you have read it?

Irony - 26/11/13 at 10:29 AM

I was looking at the Kimini book the other day and my jaw literally fell open when I found out the price. I guess I am just used to buying books for £5 secondhand from amazon or ebay. When however you stop to think about the amount of work, the printing costs and other such things that go into low volume books then the price is about right.

I print/make hardback A4 portfolios for work on occasion. Very low volume for our reps to take round. They look as professional as a 'home made' book can. The costs are:

Setup
Laser Printer - £750 - £1000 (secondhand)
Heat binding system £300

Printing
Paper £5
Ink £5
Hardback Heat Transfer Book £5

So even if I made them I would have to sell over 15 at £100 to make a profit on purely manufacturing.

Then you've got marketing, advertising, printers markup, etc etc etc etc

[Edited on 26/11/13 by Irony]

scutter - 26/11/13 at 10:30 AM

Yes matey. £2 a week to rent it.

Regards Dan.

Slimy38 - 26/11/13 at 11:11 AM

If you consider the 'Build your own' books have the backing of Haynes behind them, they can afford to sell it for a decent price. The Tiger build manual also has the backing of a decent sized publisher, but that's still £30. The plans for the Toylander are £40, so it doesn't take much to get up to £60.

I just find it frustrating that people aren't taking advantage of the 'free' costs of online publishing. Obviously it's not completely free (hence the quotes), and piracy is a massive thing. But I'm sure that would then bring in the 'nice to have' crowd, and maybe even boost the sales of the hard copy.

designer - 26/11/13 at 11:44 AM

You will find that 'specialist' books are sold at prices they can get, what the market is usually at and will sustain.

The Toylander plans are vastly overpriced! Can't remember what MEV charged for the trike plans, but am sure they were a lot cheaper.

Coffee table books have embossed covers, glossy pages and are full of colour; these are expensive to print, anything on normal paper isn't.

I use on-line publishing, it's simple, it's quick and it's cheap. That's why I can sell my book at a beer money price.

It's also makes very little difference whether soft or hard bound.

Irony: it's much cheaper to get portfolios printed and bound outside, even with a very low volume!

b14wrc - 26/11/13 at 12:36 PM

Hi All,

Personally I think the price is very competitive. I remember a few years ago when I was designing my midi, there is very little literature out there on how to build such a locost, my work on my car has been very involved and had to ask for a lot of advice and search for other sources that would give inspiration.

I must be honest, I’ve been following Kurts build for a good few years now and have had many good ideas from him which I have tried to use in my own car. I am much too far on now to make major changes to my locost, but I want the book to read to compare my design with a one I know is now out there being used. I think it will be a really interesting read, it might even inspire me to write a book once my project is complete……

I have already emailed Kurt asking to be put on the distribution list.

For the cost of the book, I know I have wasted many times that in my own developments, so hopefully I can improve the rest of my build learning from Midlana.

Obviously, if you’re not building a Mid Engined car, then the normal Locost book will do you. I can’t wait to get the book.

PS. Kurt said its likley it will be available in the UK as there are printers here, so i guess that will help with postage costs.

Rob

matt_gsxr - 26/11/13 at 12:48 PM

My experience is with academic books and in those cases they sell in around 1000 and cost maybe £150.
So £60 doesn't sound unreasonable on that basis, but we all know the publishers are making money out of the authors.


You can get small run printing done these days for not much (cheaper than printing it yourself), the first hit on google (http://www.bookprintinguk.com/), for example

Product: Paperback Book
Number of pages: 200
Number of copies: 100
Size: A4
Colour/BW: Colour
Inside Pages: 100gsm
Cover thickness: 250gsm
Finish: Gloss
Portrait/landscape: Portrait

Total cost: £1,060.00

Price per copy: £10.60

Estimated delivery time: 10 working days

big_wasa - 26/11/13 at 02:28 PM

Based on what the terrapin book and plans sell for its not outrageous.

I havn't read the updates for a while. If the book is going to be that soon I may go that way instead of a terrapin.

iank - 26/11/13 at 02:52 PM

Certainly if it contains full blueprints then it'll be worth the money if you are building one.
If it's just a rehash of the website on paper then not.

Pricing is one of those things, the Haynes book attracts a lot of dreamers and is cheap enough (especially when on offer) to buy on a whim. At £60 you'll only buy a copy if you really plan to build one.

coozer - 26/11/13 at 04:49 PM

I want a copy but at that price I'll have to wait and see if I defo want to build one..

Shame cause I was looking forward to reading all about it..

rick1962uk - 26/11/13 at 05:29 PM

Thats great news i had thought they would be about £150 so going to get mine on order asap

big_wasa - 26/11/13 at 06:09 PM

I can not find it for sale / pre order, any links ?

rick1962uk - 26/11/13 at 09:33 PM

try emailing kurt he always replys

Simon - 26/11/13 at 10:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
If you consider the 'Build your own' books have the backing of Haynes behind them, they can afford to sell it for a decent price.


That argument makes it sound like Haynes subsidises the cost which clearly is not the case.

There is no argument for an expensive book, unless it is made from exotic materials.

If you are going to sell something, I'd always aim to sell at lowest price and sell more for less profit. As has already been seen by the op's post, he's unlikely to get the book just yet. A lot of people might have bought it just for the fun of it, that won't happen at that price.

£60 may sell a couple of hundred copies, £15 may well be into the thousands.

ATB

Simon

b14wrc - 27/11/13 at 08:10 PM

Simon has a good point. But I think what Kurt is doing is so specialist, it can warrant the cost. I bought books for my degree that were very expensive for what they were, but it's the way it is.

Also, I don't think Kurt is in it for profit, just wants to pass on the info which he has worked hard to attain through his own development work. That I can relate as I've done similar....

Just my thoughts...

Alan B - 29/11/13 at 05:06 PM

Even if Kurt was motivated by profit (which I'd seriously doubt imagining the hours he must have put in the book) then that's perfectly acceptable too as the market will dictate the success or otherwise. As has been pointed out he's put tons of free info. on the website...who could really begrudge him earning something from the effort put into it?

If you purchase the book and don't get full use then maybe you'll lose out a little, however if you get full benefit from it then you'll think it was an absolute bargain.

I'm part way through a book of my own and I really get the feeling of the enormous task ahead....and yes I mean writing one..

Just my 2c/p

froggy - 29/11/13 at 07:10 PM

i think i paid £40 for the kimini book which was well worth it .

steve m - 29/11/13 at 07:43 PM

I would say that the low v high book price, bears a lot on who will buy the book v who will build a kit

I bought the original Haynes "build a sport bla bla" for about £14 back in 1997 and even though the first edition book was fraught with errors I managed to build something that resembled the book

But had the book been offered for £100 would I of bought it ? probably not

The Haynes "build a sports car books", have sold millions, and will do for many years to come, as they have a very large capture of possible builders, to dreamers

Yet a book that retails at £60 plus. will have a very low market place, and probably a 20th of the sales against a £15 book
yet is only 4 times the cost

It will attract to the genuine builder, but loses out to the chancer, dreamer, who would get a copy for the read factor, and curious

Steve

big_wasa - 7/12/13 at 07:38 PM

Just got mine through the post

b14wrc - 7/12/13 at 08:22 PM

What's it like??

coozer - 7/12/13 at 09:07 PM

Just ordered mine though lulu for £43.90...

big_wasa - 7/12/13 at 10:17 PM

How did you work a 19 quid discount then ?

big_wasa - 8/12/13 at 09:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by b14wrc
What's it like??


I've only found time for a quick flick through. Only thing I am not liking, all the dim's are imperial.

Slimy38 - 8/12/13 at 12:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Simon
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
If you consider the 'Build your own' books have the backing of Haynes behind them, they can afford to sell it for a decent price.


That argument makes it sound like Haynes subsidises the cost which clearly is not the case.


I agree, but that's not quite what I meant. Haynes already have the deals in place to make books for the best price, the distribution chains to optimise sales, basically the entire business setup. They had industry experts running the numbers to sell the proper number of copies to maximise profit, and all that jazz that's not available to someone whose skills lie in car construction than publishing. They don't need to subsidise the books to increase profit.

[Edited on 8/12/13 by Slimy38]

coozer - 8/12/13 at 02:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
How did you work a 19 quid discount then ?


Lulu had a 30% discount code on the webby

ashg - 8/12/13 at 05:37 PM

my other half ordered mine the other day.

use decktheshelf to get 30% off and FREESHIP for free shipping gets it down to £43.90

Volvorsport - 8/12/13 at 06:40 PM

if you want something that much youll pay it.....

i did think it was quite a lot , altho i paid £60 for SecondHand milliken and milliken....

as ive worked for a couple of mid engined specialist car manufacturers , i dont really need it . BUT if it saved you £60 by not buying the wrong universal joints for the gear linkage for example - its paid for itself....

b14wrc - 15/12/13 at 10:23 PM

Mine has arrived and I got the 30% discount too, I didn't order it myself.....

Got to wait until Christmas Day now though to read it as it is one of my presents from my girlfriend.

It better be good Kurt!


Rob

coozer - 15/12/13 at 10:46 PM

Mine arrived the other day. less than 4 days from purchase to unpacking..

Had a quick flick through and as Kurt says at the beginning its better to read right through it first!

As said some metric conversion is required... I learned imperial at school and at the pit but in fractions (1/2, 1/4 etc) not .625, .495....

I'm thinking of using the Toyota 1.8 VVTi 190 job..

RichieW - 15/12/13 at 10:56 PM

I've bought the book after getting the 30% discount so it cost me around £46 quid in total. Not sat down to read it properly yet but I have given it a flick through the pages, all 395 of them. I have to say I don't begrudge Kurt a penny. He has spent an awful lot of time building and then documenting his build and has been very generous with his time and the details of the build. I don't think he is asking too much at all. Thank you very much Kurt. He didn't need to share at all and the price I have paid for the book wouldn't even buy a decent tyre for the build if I ever get round to giving it a go.

ashg - 16/12/13 at 12:45 AM

I have now read it front to back. Two words, EXCELLENT BOOK! well done

iank - 16/12/13 at 08:17 AM

quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
quote:
Originally posted by b14wrc
What's it like??


I've only found time for a quick flick through. Only thing I am not liking, all the dim's are imperial.


You'd almost think he was American or something

jeffw - 17/12/13 at 03:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ashg
I have now read it front to back. Two words, EXCELLENT BOOK! well done


High praise indeed..

kb58 - 20/4/15 at 03:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m... Yet a book that retails at £60 plus. will have a very low market place, and probably a 20th of the sales against a £15 book yet is only 4 times the cost...

I'm the author and thought I'd comment on a few things. First off, Midlana certainly is in a niche market and it'll never displace Harry Potter on the shelves!

No "real" publishers were interested in carrying the book so I decided to go with Print On Demand (POD). These places are basically glorified Internet copy shops where you send them the PDF, they store it on their server, and when an order comes in, they print out exactly one copy on big copy/binding machines. They handle all the order taking, printing, shipping, and problem resolution. It's very hands-off, which is a good thing because I have a day job.

If you check out other books which mine is being compared against, they're typically printed in China where printing costs are much lower, and they're printing 1000s at a time.

Regarding the numbers quoted above, where are the facts to back up the claim that a lower book price resulting in higher income for the author? PODs only print what's needed that day and pushes the higher overhead onto authors. The above post doesn't take into account the printer's commission and overhead. This is tolerable when the book price is set high enough, but lower it by 75% and now the overhead eats 97% sales. Even if book sales improved by the claimed 20 times, the author's income would actually drop. It's easy to say that a cheaper book sells more copies - which it does - but avoids the real question: will the author make more money by doing so?

As an aside, you may find these figures interesting:
- Authors who use "real" publishing houses only make about 10-12% off each book sale.
- The average number of total book copies printed per author on POD sites: 8(!)
- When my first book, Kimini, came out, book sales for the first day was 25 copies. I was pretty happy about that, until I heard that the latest Harry Potter book - also released that same weekend - just sold 12 million copies. That didn't do the old ego any favors...

[Edited on 4/21/15 by kb58]