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Reliant Kitten Project
John Bonnett - 2/8/19 at 07:24 PM

With the G15 BMW finished and sold it is time to think about the next project which this time is based on a Reliant Kitten. Compared with other Countries, France in particular where no mechanical modifications are allowed, we are really lucky to have the freedom that we have. My project will stay within the DVLA rules and qualify for the mandatory 8 points in order to retain the registration and identity of the original car.

My plan (which is subject to continuous change) is to indulge myself with the bodywork to satisfy my craving for metal shaping and mechanically to give it a modest 180bhp/tonne to ensure a reasonable performance on the road.

I have purchased the car which is a bit of a basket case and hasn't turned a wheel for a very long time. The body has to come off before the state of the chassis can be assessed and that's what is happening at present. I'm not a lover of working with rusty metal but all my projects start this way and as we know it does get better once parts are cleaned up and painted.


rdodger - 2/8/19 at 07:57 PM

Excellent. Looking forward to another of your projects.


John Bonnett - 1/9/19 at 10:48 AM

Right, a bit of progress. The body is now removed which has revealed a chassis that is quite rusty and dissolved away in a couple of areas. Once the chassis is stripped down I'll get it over to the blasters and once done I'll know what I'm up against.







I've had various ideas about powering the car from a turbocharged Reliant engine, Fiat 1108 and finally, the option I'm going for, 1.6 Ford Sigma, type 9 gearbox and MGB rear axle. This should be bullet proof and reliable. As the first stage I now have the bell housing to mate the engine to the gearbox.



[Edited on 1/9/19 by John Bonnett]


Mike Wood - 13/10/19 at 07:27 PM

John

Looks good already. I expect another innovative and well executed build.

Are you sending updates to the Reliant Kitten Register as they are always interested in projects.

Did the Reliant engine and box go on to a good home - as might be of interest to 750 Trophy builders, as well as Kitten restorers.

Keep the updates coming!

Cheers
Mike

PS guess you have seen the V8 drag racing Kitten: http://beardmorebros.co.uk/website%20pages/reliant_kitten.htm
and a more recent Honda S2000 powered hillclimb Kitten:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRiyBjZWXN8&feature=youtu.be

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-gallery-12/reliant-kitten-s2000-hill-climb-car-1088989/

(apparently someone has put a ZZR bike engine in one, plus other bike conversions)

[Edited on 13/10/19 by Mike Wood]

[Edited on 13/10/19 by Mike Wood]


big_wasa - 13/10/19 at 07:51 PM

A good candidate for Oem injection

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=199233


John Bonnett - 13/10/19 at 08:41 PM

Thank you both for your replies and interest in my project. This is a great forum for bouncing ideas and receiving good advice.

I have trawled YouTube and google for modified Kittens and found quite a lot of really nicely done cars from bike engines, V8s, Duratec, Cosworth YB and the Honda engined car that you mentioned. There's also an MX5 one out there too.So there's plenty of food for thought and inspiration.

The Reliant engine that came with the car is excellent but it is the original and its number matches that on the chassis plate so I'm not that keen to part with it. I'd like to keep it with the car and if down the line someone wanted to restore it to original the engine would be there. Same with the gearbox and axle.

I am a member of the Kitten register and they are good people offering excellent support and good supplies of spare parts. However, I've no plans at the moment for writing the build up for their magazine. This may come later on when the car is finished.

I'm pretty well decided on fuel injection but will probably use an after market system rather than trying to get the Focus ecu to play ball. Funding is always a problem so I'll be starting with a standard engine rather than going for 140bhp straightaway. The type 9 is currently with 1st Motion having a close ratio gear set fitted; not a cheap option but it has to be done.

The chassis is back from the blasters and now ready for repair. Blasting revealed no unpleasant surprises and it's great to have lost the rust.
[img][/img]

[Edited on 13/10/19 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 13/10/19 by John Bonnett]


SJ - 14/10/19 at 08:58 AM

I've loved Reliant Kittens by association ever since I was a kid. The reason being that there was a bloke who lived up the road who drove a DeTomaso Pantera which was the coolest car by a mile.

The guy's daily driver was a Kitten!


big_wasa - 14/10/19 at 12:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
I'm pretty well decided on fuel injection but will probably use an after market system rather than trying to get the Focus ecu to play ball. Funding is always a problem so I'll be starting with a standard engine rather than going for 140bhp straightaway.


It's really not much harder than any aftermarket stand alone ECU. It's cheap. You plug it in and drive it. When you have the car dialed in you have the options of tuning and upgrading still.

I did try to buy a local kitten a few years ago with no luck. I had three or four Regals and Reliant's before I was old enough to drive so I have a soft spot for them.

Back in the day my parents would be up front, my three brothers on the back seat and I traveled all over the country in the boot.


John Bonnett - 14/10/19 at 02:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
I'm pretty well decided on fuel injection but will probably use an after market system rather than trying to get the Focus ecu to play ball. Funding is always a problem so I'll be starting with a standard engine rather than going for 140bhp straightaway.


It's really not much harder than any aftermarket stand alone ECU. It's cheap. You plug it in and drive it. When you have the car dialed in you have the options of tuning and upgrading still.

I did try to buy a local kitten a few years ago with no luck. I had three or four Regals and Reliant's before I was old enough to drive so I have a soft spot for them.

Back in the day my parents would be up front, my three brothers on the back seat and I traveled all over the country in the boot.


You have my interest

PM sent


Oddified - 14/10/19 at 09:50 PM

Still got my kitten (supercharged cossy, water meth, nitrous, atlas axle, spc type 9 etc etc, the list is quite long! lol), unfortunately it is going to have to go (probably break it and sell all the parts) as i just don't have space to to keep two fun cars. I took it out for a final blast before the insurance ran out and it still put a big smile on my face! lol

I've had the car for over 20 years so i know every mm of the car, so if you need any ideas/suggestions just ask

Ian


John Bonnett - 2/11/19 at 11:29 AM

Next step is to get the chassis up on to the table, jig it in position and start the repairs. Rather than messing about trying to repair the main chassis leg, I'm going to replace the whole thing back to the gearbox cross member. Our local steel fabricator has folded up piece for me. This is a top hat section with a separate closing panel. He has also done a U section length.


I've made up some up stands that will locate on the chassis out riggers to stand the chassis off the table and allow access all the way round.


[img]http://[/img]

[Edited on 2/11/19 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 8/11/19 at 06:43 PM

I've made up a fixture for locating the very front cross member and the chassis is now mounted on a jig and cutting can begin.




John Bonnett - 12/11/19 at 01:13 PM

I was getting ahead of myself. One more fixture needed, now completed.




[Edited on 12/11/19 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 13/11/19 at 04:32 PM

I've cut out the two major members and the jig is holding the chassis firm so well worth taking a bit of time over making it. The suspension turret needs a bit of work but is basically sound. I have yet to cut off the very front cross member which is a job for another day.



Sam_68 - 14/11/19 at 08:23 PM

Are you planning to install a cage in this?

If not, it might be worth mentioning that, many years ago, I cut the bodyshell on one into sections with an angle grinder to dispose of it at my local municipal tip (rolling chassis was then turned into a Tempest).

The upper seatbelt mounts turned out to be 'attached' to some flakes of rust, which were all that was left of the steel reinforcement that had originally been laminated into the B-pillar...


John Bonnett - 16/11/19 at 08:55 AM

I'm actually going to build a completely new Estate car body in aluminium underpinned by a cage fabricated in 40mm tube. It will still resemble a Kitten but with a nod to the Lancia HPE and Integrale. A way off but plans are afoot.

Meanwhile with some difficulty, I have managed to bore out the inch and a half round tube from the chassis cross members and have made a jig to ensure the front cross member fits back in exactly the right place. So work is progressing well and it will be nice to start repairing and building up the chassis.






John Bonnett - 16/11/19 at 05:43 PM

It came as a huge relief that the cross member slipped on both tubes and the jig that I made earlier fitted perfectly.


John Bonnett - 20/11/19 at 08:30 AM

All the rusty areas have been cut out and now it's time to be creative with CAD (cardboard aided design)





[Edited on 20/11/19 by John Bonnett]


Oddified - 20/11/19 at 09:01 PM

Looking good, the chassis will probably be better than it's ever been in the last 20 years!.

Ian


John Bonnett - 20/11/19 at 09:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Looking good, the chassis will probably be better than it's ever been in the last 20 years!.

Ian


Thank you Ian. I'm thoroughly enjoying the works on the chassis and taking my time to ensure that it is as good as I can possibly make it but for me the real work commences with the all-new aluminium estate car body that I am planning. Some way off yet but all there in my head.


John Bonnett - 24/11/19 at 11:29 AM

Potentially the most difficult part of the chassis repair fitting the new chassis leg. But all went well and the fit not too shabby.


John Bonnett - 30/11/19 at 02:38 PM

Chassis repairs now completed. Now I can start thinking about building a 5-link rear suspension. Here I'd be interested in your thoughts please. Rod ends both ends of the trailing arms and Panhard rod or bush at one end and rode end at the other. I believe a bush?rod end arrangement transmits less noise and vibration.





Oddified - 30/11/19 at 06:20 PM

When i first built mine i had bushes both ends of the axle links, then after a few failed i swapped to one end bushed the other rod ends, then for the last few years rod ends both ends. There is a difference in noise/vibration but not huge, unless your planning on using the car for daily commutes with your mother on board i would just fit rod ends.

The other thing of note though is axle movement even if only slight in theory, there was a noticeable difference with less moving around especially under hard braking with rod ends all round.

Ian


John Bonnett - 30/11/19 at 06:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
When i first built mine i had bushes both ends of the axle links, then after a few failed i swapped to one end bushed the other rod ends, then for the last few years rod ends both ends. There is a difference in noise/vibration but not huge, unless your planning on using the car for daily commutes with your mother on board i would just fit rod ends.

The other thing of note though is axle movement even if only slight in theory, there was a noticeable difference with less moving around especially under hard braking with rod ends all round.

Ian




Ian, I was hoping you'd reply. Thank you. Good information. I was thinking of using 25.4mm x 2.64 wall CDS tubing for the trailing arms and Panhard rod and M12 x 1.25 rode ends from McGill Motorsport. Fitting rod ends all round makes things a whole lot easier than trying to find suitable tube I/D to suit whatever poly bushes I could come up with. It's not going to be a quiet car so a bit more noise won't make much difference.

By the way, although receive email notification box is ticked, they aren't coming through.


Oddified - 30/11/19 at 06:46 PM

The links fitted at the moment on mine are 1" x 1/8" cds (so just slightly thicker wall than your thinking) with 1/2" unf rod ends but i always er on the thicker/stronger side than probably necessary....my motto is if in doubt go thicker/stronger! lol. Decent power and grip drag racing does test things.

Ian


John Bonnett - 30/11/19 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
The links fitted at the moment on mine are 1" x 1/8" cds (so just slightly thicker wall than your thinking) with 1/2" unf rod ends but i always er on the thicker/stronger side than probably necessary....my motto is if in doubt go thicker/stronger! lol. Decent power and grip drag racing does test things.

Ian


Sorry to be a pain Ian but do you have any photos of your set up. Your design and build obviously works and if you don't mind I'd very much like to copy it.

I think I'm happy with the specs I've been looking at because at best, my engine will only be knocking out half the power of yours.

[Edited on 30/11/19 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 17/12/19 at 07:39 AM

Without the benefit of 3D CAD anymore I have to work out in my head the way things are going to work but we get there in the end. So it's taken a bit longer to sort out the five link but I'm pretty happy with the design now. I've made a start on putting it together with the Panhard rod and suspension axle mounts tacked in place.


Mr Whippy - 17/12/19 at 12:31 PM

Really quite a sturdy chassis design, would look great if you galvanised it


John Bonnett - 21/12/19 at 08:10 AM

The rear suspension is coming together now with most of it tacked in place. The Panhard rod will complete it which is the next task.


Oddified - 21/12/19 at 09:07 PM

Haven't had chance to send you any pictures of my link setup sorry.The lower points are pretty much identical, top links are longer/connect to the chassis further forward on mine.

My only concern would be bending the stubby tubes running through the chassis with the rod ends screwed into the ends on your setup (all depends on how much grip and power you have of course though).

Ian


John Bonnett - 21/12/19 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Haven't had chance to send you any pictures of my link setup sorry.The lower points are pretty much identical, top links are longer/connect to the chassis further forward on mine.

My only concern would be bending the stubby tubes running through the chassis with the rod ends screwed into the ends on your setup (all depends on how much grip and power you have of course though).

Ian



Good point Ian and it did cross my mind too. I still haven't ruled out bracing them.


John Bonnett - 24/12/19 at 04:44 PM

Using my air planishing hammer I've formed a couple of dished ends and rolled two tubes all in 2mm thick mild steel sheet. The ends were welded to the tubes which will form the top mounts for the rear dampers.





[Edited on 24/12/19 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 2/1/20 at 06:26 PM

The five link rear suspension is now complete and tacked up.



[Edited on 2/1/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 16/2/20 at 05:36 PM

Slight change of plan to keep the car legal. Rather than use the MGB axle I'm opting to stay with the Reliant offering. This will then give more than the minimum 8 points necessary to satisfy the DVLA. I have it on good authority that the internals are good for 150bhp but the weakness is in the casing. The diff case is alloy and the steel axle tubes an interference fit and secured by taper pins. Evidently the axle doesn't respond well to 5-link systems. In fact, they break. But if I can address this weakness I stay on the right side of legal, save weight and keep the same stud pattern back and front.

Bit of a longshot but if anyone on here has any experience using the Reliant axle and a five link set up I'd be pleased to hear from you


John Bonnett - 27/3/20 at 09:59 PM

Following my last offering, I'm going to use the Reliant axle and build a Mumford link suspension which has a number of advantages including confining the loads to the strong part of the axle casing and a roll centre that can be pre-set. I've fabricated the pivoted arm and bell crank from stainless steel and incorporated oil lite bushes and precision shoulder bolts to act as pivots.



John Bonnett - 30/3/20 at 05:15 PM

The Mumford link assembly is now finished and ready to tack onto the chassis.

http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/3IMG_9023.JPG


John Bonnett - 3/4/20 at 06:33 PM

I've done a bit more work on the suspension and it is coming together. The axle mounts will be held in place on the spring saddles by the original U bolts. There is a clearance problem on full bump where the transverse links foul the chassis but this can be rectified quite easily.






[Edited on 3/4/20 by John Bonnett]


[Edited on 3/4/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 5/4/20 at 06:54 AM

On full bump the link is very close to the chassis and it will probably actually hit the chassis when the bump stop compresses. Jacking the axle through its entire range of travel hasn't highlighted and other problems. Contrary to what I was expecting, as the axle is jacked up the bell crank and arm raise up increasing the ground clearance.

I'll gusset the bends on the links for added strength and the ends of the axle mounts will be blanked off with closure pieces.

The roll centre is the point where if extended the transverse links would meet and this can be preset by setting the angle of the links.




[Edited on 5/4/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 5/4/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 5/4/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 6/4/20 at 06:12 PM

Today was spent consolidating the work I have recently carried out. These are the axle fixings for the ends of the transverse links and they will be mounted on the spring saddles which are in a perfect position.






[Edited on 8/4/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 8/4/20 at 06:39 AM

Having been running a Mumford Link rear suspension on my V8 MGB for a couple of years I am very happy with the system and am confident that it will work well in this application too.

All the fabrication is finished now and I have trial fitted it. I'm never keen on bends in tube but it was unavoidable with the dampers set behind the axle. There would probably have been no problem but just to set my mind at rest, I have gusseted them for added strength. The springs are 150 lbs which is just a guess but for road use may not be far off.

The rear brakes are standard Mini so it was easier to purchase the complete built-up assemblies from Mini Spares than trying to refurbish the old ones of which not much would have been salvageable.







[Edited on 8/4/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 8/4/20 at 10:47 AM

Next on the agenda is to get it to a rolling chassis stage. This is important for establishing clearances for the future bodywork. I'm going to set the ride height by substituting the coil overs for fixed rods using the damper mounting points. And that brings me to the choice of wheels and tyres, always an emotive subject where everyone has his or her own opinion. For a light car I have always favoured a narrow section tyre inspired by the Lotus Elan. The target weight of my car is about the same as the Elan so I see no reason not to go for the 145 or 155 section 13 inch tyres that work so well on that car. Granted the rear suspension on the Elan is more sophisticated than a live axle so I agree that there may well be a difference. Personally, I like a well located live axle which I've always found gives predictable handling and a reasonable ride quality.

So, choice of wheels, not easy when aftermarket widths start at 5 inch which is the very minimum recommended for 155 section tyres and perhaps too wide for a 145 section. Stud pattern is 4" so for starters at least I have ordered from Andy Jennings a set of 13 inch Sprite wheels with tyres which will serve their purpose during the build up stage very nicely.


John Bonnett - 13/4/20 at 01:05 PM

Some pleasing progress made both with learning Sketch Up, a 3D cad package that I'm now totally addicted to and with the project itself. I've fitted new shaft seals and completely new rear brakes and put everything back together. The chassis sits at ride height using fixed struts rather than the coil overs and with the 145 80 13 tyres ride height is 5.5 inches which is what I was aiming at.



John Bonnett - 28/4/20 at 03:56 PM

First attempt to fit gearbox to engine could have gone badly but fortunately no damage done. So an alternative single operator method was devised. This worked a treat. They say necessity is the mother of invention and how true. You may have spotted the clutch fork and release bearing. I hadn't forgotten to fit it. This was just a dummy run to prove the method.



[Edited on 28/4/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 28/5/20 at 06:46 AM

I notice that it's a month since the last offering but in that time I've managed to get to grips with,although not by a long chalk master, Autodesk Fusion 360 which has enabled me to produce drawings of the 38mm diameter round tube hoops to give to the supplier and bender of the tubing. It has also enabled me to tweak the dimensions on screen rather than fabbing something up and trying it for size.

I'm trying to build something with a nod to the Italian designers and a strong hint of the Lancia HPE a sports estate of the 80s but hopefully without the same penchant of dissolving in the wet.


[Edited on 28/5/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 31/5/20 at 11:43 AM

Interesting to see how this develops, an aluminium bodied shooting break will be quite something.

My personal favourite is the Lamborghini 400gt flying star 2 by Touring.


[Edited on 31/5/20 by ettore bugatti]


John Bonnett - 31/5/20 at 12:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Interesting to see how this develops, an aluminium bodied shooting break will be quite something.

My personal favourite is the Lamborghini 400gt flying star 2 by Touring.


It's a massive project and I have never underestimated the challenges, not the least being forming the roof when the time comes. At the moment, I'm working on mounting the engine whilst retaining the air conditioning compressor. I'll put some photos up when I'm a bit further on.


John Bonnett - 3/6/20 at 09:05 PM

The engine sits quite nicely in the frame and the mounts tacked in. The mounting are screwed to a base plate which will be welded to the chassis. This feature allows for adding shims if necessary to make sure the engine is level.




[Edited on 3/6/20 by John Bonnett]


Mr Whippy - 4/6/20 at 06:53 AM

This project may actual disprove the saying "You can't polish a turd"


John Bonnett - 4/6/20 at 08:00 AM

The MK1 Focus is proving to be an excellent choice of donor vehicle with parts being plentiful and very cheap. I bought two complete Zetec SE engines with all ancillaries for 200 which is probably a reflection on their lack of popularity among kit car builders. But the engine has a lot going for it. It was developed as a joint venture between Yamaha and Ford and is all aluminium. Confusingly it is referred to as a Sigma or Zetec SE. It weighs around 80kg and in the 1.6 Focus develops 100bhp. This can be easily increased to 150bhp without major and costly work. My aim is to produce a light nimble car following Colin Chapman's philosophy, that looks pretty and is an enjoyable drive. It will have air conditioning and a decent audio system like the Alpine Freestyle with all the modern features including a 7 inch screen, comfortable seats and plenty of room for luggage for Continetal trips. It is nice to have a relatively clean sheet of paper to be able to design and build a car to my own spec. Very early days yet but that is my objective so we'll see how it develops.


HowardB - 4/6/20 at 09:16 AM


It will have air conditioning and a decent audio system like the Alpine Freestyle with all the modern features including a 7 inch screen, comfortable seats and plenty of room for luggage for Continetal trips. It is nice to have a relatively clean sheet of paper to be able to design and build a car to my own spec. Very early days yet but that is my objective so we'll see how it develops.


and you have a level that goes beep,.. perhaps Binky has been an influence?

H


John Bonnett - 4/6/20 at 09:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB

It will have air conditioning and a decent audio system like the Alpine Freestyle with all the modern features including a 7 inch screen, comfortable seats and plenty of room for luggage for Continetal trips. It is nice to have a relatively clean sheet of paper to be able to design and build a car to my own spec. Very early days yet but that is my objective so we'll see how it develops.


and you have a level that goes beep,.. perhaps Binky has been an influence?

H



I'm sure many of us builders have been inspired by the lads doing the Binky project. I know I certainly have.


John Bonnett - 4/6/20 at 03:40 PM

The gearbox cross member is now fitted so that the gearbox is tilted down towards the axle by about 2 degrees. This should prevent the propshaft from fouling the chassis cross member throughout its entire travel. The angle of the gearbox pinion flange can be adjusted to suit by screwing the trailing arms in and out.





John Bonnett - 7/6/20 at 07:46 PM

This is where things start to get tricky. With mechanical work a job is either right or wrong with no middle ground. Bodywork is different and needs careful thought and looking at from all angles and adjusting until it looks right. So before embarking on building up the 38mm diameter tubular frame I'm going to mock-up the body using a wire frame. I've made a start with the windscreen to set the rake and check the overall height.


Mr Whippy - 8/6/20 at 07:20 AM

Meticulous attention to detail as usual but it would be nice to see any sketches or doodles you have done of the overall style of the car. The Sketch up model reminds me of a Cortina estate which Im sure it will look vastly better than. Personally and I know that counts for nothing but I quite liked the Lamborghini's sloping rear roof line

[Edited on 8/6/20 by Mr Whippy]


John Bonnett - 8/6/20 at 07:59 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Meticulous attention to detail as usual but it would be nice to see any sketches or doodles you have done of the overall style of the car. The Sketch up model reminds me of a Cortina estate which Im sure it will look vastly better than. Personally and I know that counts for nothing but I quite liked the Lamborghini's sloping rear roof line

[Edited on 8/6/20 by Mr Whippy]




It's all in the melting pot at the moment. I was planning on using the Kitten windscreen and had designed around that but unfortunately the standard screen is toughened glass which is a big no no and replacement laminated screens are rubbish I'm reliably informed. So I'm currently casting around for a suitable modern windscreen that is sufficiently narrow to fit the body.

[Edited on 8/6/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 8/6/20 at 07:26 PM

Would you be able to share a top view and a front view of your sketch up model with dimensions?

That would be a nice template to get some ideas going.

Stevens Cipher is a interesting Reliant based sports car:
http://www.stevens-cipher.com/csscipher_road_tests.php



And dont forget the Reliant Fox:


John Bonnett - 8/6/20 at 07:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Would you be able to share a top view and a front view of your sketch up model with dimensions?

That would be a nice template to get some ideas going.

Stevens Cipher is a interesting Reliant based sports car:
http://www.stevens-cipher.com/csscipher_road_tests.php



And dont forget the Reliant Fox:



The brief is to build a sports brake of the 80s ilk along the lines of a Lancia HPE. It's important to try to get the proportions right while limited by certain constraints not the least being availability of suitably sized windscreens. On the Kitten the wheels are close to poking out from the arches but on my car if I'm going to fit the Fiesta windscreen the wheels will be 50-60mm inset from the edges of the arches to give a wider body.

I've had to bite the bullet and order a Fiesta screen and from that I'll make a wire frame mock-up before carefully packing it away until it is needed to form the profile for the windscreen aperture. The wire frame will enable me to build the 38mm diameter tubular windscreen frame and the structure that will underpin the aluminium bodywork and provide rigid mounting for the doors and tailgate.

The drawings I've done to date are all based on using the Kitten screen so because the Fiesta one is substantially wider and higher it's back to the drawing board. If the screen doesn't work I'll have a brand new one for sale!


ettore bugatti - 9/6/20 at 10:06 AM

Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


John Bonnett - 9/6/20 at 12:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]



I could do with your artistic talents; a superb bit of drawing, and yes that's pretty much what I'm hoping to achieve. I really like how you've captured such an aggressive stance and brought the whole design bang up to date.

Width wise the Fiesta screen should be okay and slanted at a 32 degree angle the height looks as if it can be accommodated. I sketched it up on Fusion and superimposed the drawing over a photo of an HPE and all looks promising. By converting to trailing arms I've been able to increase the wheelbase by 7 inches to 91 inches but I'm not altering the track. The body will be 120mm wider than the Kitten, achieved by being 60mm wider each sidethan the track. The body will be slightly narrower than an MGB which has the same track as the Kitten and the same amount of overhang and looks absolutely fine in my opinion.

I really appreciate you interest and input. Thank you.

[Edited on 9/6/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 11/6/20 at 09:13 PM

The Fiesta windscreen arrived today and I'm still hopeful that it will fit the body and look okay. The widest part of the screen measures 1357mm and the body width is planned to be 1520mm. As mentioned before, the height of the screen which is 745mm should if installed at 32 degrees slope match the Lancia HPE quite closely. I have to admit that I have never formed a windscreen aperture for a curved windscreen so it's going to be a journey of discovery and one that I'm facing with a degree of trepidation.

Using 1mm mild steel sheet I'm going to bend some lengths of L section 15mm x 15mm and shrink and stretch to produce the required profile to match the screen. I'll have to make it in separate lengths and weld them together to make a frame. Although time consuming this should be quite straightforward even welding the 1mm lengths together if I'm careful. Somehow and this is the unknown for me, I'll have to attach the formed aperture to the straight sections of the round tube frame that underpins the body and arrange things so that the final panelling flows from the aperture into the roof and scuttle.

I really hope the screen does work out because it will allow good forward vision and hopefully very little in the way of blind spots caused by thick pillars. And not forgetting the electrically heated demisting feature which is a huge bonus both because of its efficiency and not having to fit space consuming hot air ducting to the screen.

I'm at the stage where I could do some mechanical work like fitting the radiators and modifying the exhaust manifold or grasp the nettle and get stuck into the screen. Or a bit of both.


Mr Whippy - 12/6/20 at 12:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


that looks like a Reliant Scimitar!


John Bonnett - 12/6/20 at 12:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to widen the track a lot? I would think a Fiesta mk5 screen is way too wide and too tall.
I can dig some rough dimensions of the Citroen Ax screen if you are interested.

I couldn't resist to sketch an idea out.
Description
Description


[Edited on 9/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


that looks like a Reliant Scimitar!





This is what I'm aiming for and EB got it spot on with his sketch which actually blew me away.


ettore bugatti - 12/6/20 at 06:46 PM

Although the Beta HPE was not designed by Guigiaro it has very much strong resemblence to Italdesign designs, lovely theme to sketch in. Your project is not far removed from 2+2 rwd coupe I have been working on in terms of packaging.

Width
Width


I think the screen will caused the wheels to look lost in the body if you take in account the space the side glass need to go when you wind them down. See the sketch for clarification.

Looking at various blueprints, I recon the screen width should be very similar to the track.
I guess wheel spacers or lower offset wheels might work.

Other screen dimensions I got are:
Fiat Cinqucento screen is 810/1330mm wide, top/bottom. Also used on the gtm libra.
Citroen Ax screen is 1390mm at its widest point, about 980 to 1060mm at the top. The length measured over the middle is 740mm.
Micra k10 is around 990/1345mm x 740mm.
The Fiat screen dimensions are quoted online, I measured the ax screen myself and the micra screen is scaled from a blueprint drawing.
Probably these are close to your current screen since they are from similar sized car from the same period.

What are the measurements of the Kitten screen?

Maybe a Fiat 126 or mgb gt glass are a lot narrower.

[Edited on 12/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


John Bonnett - 12/6/20 at 07:43 PM

Thank you not only for your interest in my project but also for taking the trouble to research possible screen choices and for your sketches.

It's amazing that the whole design rests on the selection of the windscreen, a task not made easy by modern vehicles being made wider and wider making the choice very limited.

I have drawn up the Kitten screen plus the seal and I'll try to attach it. The big problem with using it is that the standard screens are toughened so not acceptable and after- market laminated are of very poor quality and fog up quickly so I understand. I discounted the MGB GT screen because it isn't tall enough and, because it curves round at the ends, cannot really be tilted at a steeper angle required by the Lancia. Its dimensions are approximately 1250 x 470mms.

You may well be right, and I'm sure you are, that the wheels might be too inset with the Fiesta screen but it is one of the smaller modern screens, is heated and (now) I have one, all of which are reasons to try to use it. I had ruled out widening the track but this may be necessary if the end result looks ridiculous.

Please do keep your thoughts and ideas coming.


ettore bugatti - 12/6/20 at 09:09 PM

No problem, most information was at hand.

Funny, how the windscreen affects everything. I remember reading that in car design, the a-pillar design is one of the most important things to sort out.

A custom flat laminated windscreen is also an option, not as expensive as a custom curved one.

What are you plans for the door and side glass, reuse the Kitten ones?
Fiesta mk1/2 looks quite close in shape to the HPE one, must be the Italian Ghia design work.

Other ideas that could work with the Reliant axle width are:
Fiat 127 which is used on the Reliant Fox and Japanese kei cars from the 80/90s like the Suzuki Alto/ Maruti 800, Daihatsu Cuore/ Perodua Nippa, Suzuki Carry/ Bedford Rascal.
I dont think heated versions easily available.

But a wide track Reliant will corner though, Escort rear axle and Lotus Europa front suspension should be easy enough for you to put on.

At what height from the ground plane does the windscreen currently sit? I might draw some plan views up.


John Bonnett - 13/6/20 at 07:02 AM

Some good thoughts there thank you. I'm fairly certain in my own mind that because of the benefits that I have already outlined, I'm going to press ahead with the Fiesta screen and build the rest of the body to suit. Whoever said how important the A post is certainly had great insight into the design aspects of a car body.

The attached drawing shows the Fiesta screen in place and superimposing the drawing over a photo of an HPE the bodywork fits.


Mr Whippy - 13/6/20 at 10:36 AM

I'm impressed with your tolerances, you could teach the Germans a thing or two


John Bonnett - 13/6/20 at 10:39 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
I'm impressed with your tolerances, you could teach the Germans a thing or two



Ha ha, just how they came out putting the screen in the right place.


ettore bugatti - 15/6/20 at 11:22 PM

Description
Description


The photo is slighty distorting the proportions, the sketch needs a proper scan.


John Bonnett - 16/6/20 at 07:28 AM

This is the result of superimposing the Fusion sketch over a photo of an HPE and drawing the outline. The rear wheel arch on the HPE is further back than it will be on my car but apart from that, it all lines up well.


SJ - 16/6/20 at 10:21 AM

The proportions look good!


SJ - 16/6/20 at 10:21 AM

The proportions look good!


John Bonnett - 16/6/20 at 11:10 AM

Thank you. It does look promising and I'm hopeful that it will work. Whether I can build it though is a different matter entirely.


ettore bugatti - 16/6/20 at 05:05 PM

Ended up with a new sketch since something wasn't quite right with the greenhouse on the other sketch:
Description
Description


John Bonnett - 16/6/20 at 06:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Ended up with a new sketch since something wasn't quite right with the greenhouse on the other sketch:
Description
Description




I'd be pleased if I'd made that. Nice drawing thank you EB


SJ - 16/6/20 at 07:08 PM

Looks like a cross between a Beta HPE and a Delta.


ettore bugatti - 16/6/20 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
Looks like a cross between a Beta HPE and a Delta.


Exactly what the doctor ordered

[Edited on 16/6/20 by ettore bugatti]


ettore bugatti - 16/6/20 at 07:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Ended up with a new sketch since something wasn't quite right with the greenhouse on the other sketch:
Description
Description




I'd be pleased if I'd made that. Nice drawing thank you EB


No problem at all.
Hopefully, it will be useful in some way in the build.


John Bonnett - 16/6/20 at 07:54 PM

With the inspiration you chaps have given me I'm straining at the leash to get going. Frustratingly, I'm held up for material at the moment, principally the round tube for the A post and the sheet for the windscreen aperture. So as an interim measure I'll get started on modifying the exhaust manifold which is the standard Focus one but tubular and hopefully should flow well.

I'll keep you posted.


HowardB - 17/6/20 at 12:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Ended up with a new sketch since something wasn't quite right with the greenhouse on the other sketch:
Description
Description





I'd be pleased if I'd made that. Nice drawing thank you EB


No problem at all.
Hopefully, it will be useful in some way in the build.


It looks great,. I quite like this shape too,...



1979 Talbot Sunbeam-Lotus specifications
bodywork
Wheelbase 2413 mm 95 inches
Track/tread (front) 1341 mm 52.8 inches
Track/tread (rear) 1328 mm 52.3 inches
Length 3830 mm 150.8 inches

[Edited on 17/6/20 by HowardB]


John Bonnett - 18/6/20 at 03:36 PM

Whilst waiting for materials I've been experimenting with pie cuts to form an exhaust pipe bend. These are 10 degree cuts welded together which will hopefully put the pipe where I want it.


John Bonnett - 20/6/20 at 11:42 AM

Using the pie cut technique, I've produced a pipe to extend the manifold to a point tight to the engine and with the outlet in line with te exhaust pipe.

The materials are now in and I've commenced the laborious task of shaping the windscreen aperture.




Mr Whippy - 20/6/20 at 10:00 PM

So are you building everything, scratch building all the internal structure of the body as well? This is a bit epic...


John Bonnett - 21/6/20 at 06:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
So are you building everything, scratch building all the internal structure of the body as well? This is a bit epic...




Absolute madness but that's the idea.


John Bonnett - 22/6/20 at 06:13 PM

A lot of hours but some progress in forming the screen aperture. Both stretching and shrinking is needed to replicate the curvature. It has been a case of a little bit and check and a little bit more. The L section I'm forming is 8 ft long and a bit unwieldy. But we're getting there. The scecond piece for the top edge will be much shorter and not have so much shape.


HowardB - 22/6/20 at 06:33 PM

I applaud your absolute madness!!

Encore!


John Bonnett - 22/6/20 at 07:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
I applaud your absolute madness!!

Encore!


I thank you Howard.


Mr Whippy - 26/6/20 at 08:38 PM

So I saw this and thought of your car...

Ok it's quite different but lots of ideas and Russian vodka induced craziness and tbh in a strange way it looks quite cool in a mad 80's retro style I'd love one but you'd have had to work in the KGB or something to own one I'm sure and now their probably priceless or locked away in some vault.

They do seem to have a bit of a panel gap issue going on Maybe they moved on to work with Tesla...







[Edited on 26/6/20 by Mr Whippy]


John Bonnett - 27/6/20 at 05:16 PM

If my car turns out like that its first trip would be to the crusher


ettore bugatti - 27/6/20 at 08:25 PM

Maybe some graphics will help?


I dont think the rear end is looking too bad, it is just that Countach inspired nose doesn't work on front engined package


John Bonnett - 27/6/20 at 08:31 PM

We'll have to agree to differ I'm afraid.


John Bonnett - 6/7/20 at 02:50 PM

I'm still having nightmares that my car might end up looking like that Russian thing and that together with other comments about my sketches looking "Boxy" I may have to re-think the shape of the body altogether. Curves to replace the straight lines which in any case will be easier to achieve and perhaps result in a more pleasing result.

Along with the Fiesta MK5 windscreen I'm going to try to use the dashboard as well, complete with all switches and clocks. Although the speedometer normally uses a Hall effect sensor in the Fiesta gearbox, Speedy cables can supply a sensor and an adaptor box to calibrate the unit on the fly.

Work is progressing on the windscreen frame and I hope to be able to share some photos over the next week or so.


HowardB - 6/7/20 at 03:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
I'm still having nightmares that my car might end up looking like that Russian thing and that together with other comments about my sketches looking "Boxy" I may have to re-think the shape of the body altogether. Curves to replace the straight lines which in any case will be easier to achieve and perhaps result in a more pleasing result.

Along with the Fiesta MK5 windscreen I'm going to try to use the dashboard as well, complete with all switches and clocks. Although the speedometer normally uses a Hall effect sensor in the Fiesta gearbox, Speedy cables can supply a sensor and an adaptor box to calibrate the unit on the fly.

Work is progressing on the windscreen frame and I hope to be able to share some photos over the next week or so.


Boxy is ok as long as it has proportions - viz the Lotus Sunbeam, Mk1 Golf and even the Esprit,. classics then and classics now.

PS I am sure that it will be amazing, the only right angles are on your chassis, everything else can be curves


John Bonnett - 6/7/20 at 03:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
I'm still having nightmares that my car might end up looking like that Russian thing and that together with other comments about my sketches looking "Boxy" I may have to re-think the shape of the body altogether. Curves to replace the straight lines which in any case will be easier to achieve and perhaps result in a more pleasing result.

Along with the Fiesta MK5 windscreen I'm going to try to use the dashboard as well, complete with all switches and clocks. Although the speedometer normally uses a Hall effect sensor in the Fiesta gearbox, Speedy cables can supply a sensor and an adaptor box to calibrate the unit on the fly.

Work is progressing on the windscreen frame and I hope to be able to share some photos over the next week or so.


Boxy is ok as long as it has proportions - viz the Lotus Sunbeam, Mk1 Golf and even the Esprit,. classics then and classics now.

PS I am sure that it will be amazing, the only right angles are on your chassis, everything else can be curves



Very nicely put Howard, thank you. I was half joshing about boxy but in reality, for an amateur metal shaper straight sharp lines are hard to achieve and if they are not perfectly executed the result will look awful. Curves are much easier for me so for that reason I'm leaning heavily towards a 60s style rather than a 70/80s look of the cars we've mentioned. Once I've got to grips with the windscreen frame and the basic structure I can make some sweeps and see what might work. Rather than a wooden buck like I've used before, this time I'm going to try a wire frame using 6mm steel bar. And that doesn't bend as easily as one might think!


ettore bugatti - 9/7/20 at 06:36 PM

I was watching this video where they mentioned the same on the rod stiffness:
https://youtu.be/yDAKno8so-8
Maybe round tubing of 10-15mm with 1mm tickness is easier to shape?

To be fair even the most boxy looking bodies have compound curves everwhere so it might not be easier to make anyway. Unless it is land-rover or jeep body.

If you got the space a 1:1 tape drawing of the front, side and rear will be valuable to determine (which will be a process of back and forth) the proportions. Get that right with the stance and the rest almost doesn't matter.

So you are looking at the Volvo P1800ES?


John Bonnett - 9/7/20 at 07:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I was watching this video where they mentioned the same on the rod stiffness:
https://youtu.be/yDAKno8so-8
Maybe round tubing of 10-15mm with 1mm tickness is easier to shape?

To be fair even the most boxy looking bodies have compound curves everwhere so it might not be easier to make anyway. Unless it is land-rover or jeep body.

If you got the space a 1:1 tape drawing of the front, side and rear will be valuable to determine (which will be a process of back and forth) the proportions. Get that right with the stance and the rest almost doesn't matter.

So you are looking at the Volvo P1800ES?


I'm not sure now what I'm going to do but probably make it up as I go along which has always worked before. I've generally made up sweeps from folded aluminium L section to give the desired shape and built the buck to suit.

I actually said that the feature lines found in cars of the 80s have to be executed perfectly which isn't easy. Therefore the more boxy designs of that era are more challenging than a body made up of curves typical of the styles of a decade or so earlier. This is a major reason for my re-think. I'm limited by what I can actually make and which has to stand up to scrutiny.

Thank you for the video link relating to bending the 6mm bar and using thinner wire as patterns to establish the curvatures. I'm doing the same thing with the sweeps.

At the moment I'm still struggling with getting a perfect fit of the windscreen into the frame so the bodywork proper seems a long way away.


John Bonnett - 10/7/20 at 03:23 PM

I've spent a long time with the shrinker/stretcher adjusting the windscreen frame until it's as good as I can get it. I can do no better. The flange sits on the rubber trim so it will need extending to allow the glue to act on the glass rather than the rubber. I shall joddle a step and use countersunk rivets to attach it rather than welding.


rdodger - 12/7/20 at 09:59 AM

Looks like it fits better than any kit car screen!

So whats next John?


John Bonnett - 12/7/20 at 03:57 PM

It was well worth spending a bit of time, well a lot of time actually and I'm really pleased with the fit. More metal will need to be added to the bit that the screen sits on because at the moment it only extends to the edges of the rubber trim. It's going to need another 15mm or so for the glue. But before I do that I'll try to sort out how the frame is going to fit to the A post and transverse tube to give it a bit of rigidity. I've never done this before so I'm making it up as I go along.


John Bonnett - 23/7/20 at 12:54 PM

[Edited on 23/7/20 by John Bonnett]


[Edited on 23/7/20 by John Bonnett]

It's taken a lot of hours to reach this stage but I now have something resembling a windscreen frame.

[Edited on 23/7/20 by John Bonnett]


HowardB - 23/7/20 at 02:24 PM

it looks very impressive,...

I like the approach, at this pace I feel it entirely possible that you will finish the JB-Kitten before Binky is complete


John Bonnett - 23/7/20 at 03:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
it looks very impressive,...

I like the approach, at this pace I feel it entirely possible that you will finish the JB-Kitten before Binky is complete


I wish I had your confidence Howard. I seem to have been wading through treacle for weeks now but I do feel that do today's progress is a bit of a landmark.


Mr Whippy - 23/7/20 at 04:33 PM

So how are you going to paint it? the bodyshell that is. Reason I ask is what about those companies that clean and dip shells? Seeing how much effort your putting into this it seems worthwhile and getting it completely painted inside and out. I mind reading about older Rolls Royce's which like yours were hand built and painted on the outside beautifully but inside they would rust out like crazy cos they were not dipped.


John Bonnett - 23/7/20 at 05:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
So how are you going to paint it? the bodyshell that is. Reason I ask is what about those companies that clean and dip shells? Seeing how much effort your putting into this it seems worthwhile and getting it completely painted inside and out. I mind reading about older Rolls Royce's which like yours were hand built and painted on the outside beautifully but inside they would rust out like crazy cos they were not dipped.


On the Lightweight I sprayed it before panelling. I'm not sure on this one but at the moment it's not too high on the list.


ettore bugatti - 26/7/20 at 09:39 AM

I can' t wait to see the screen frame on the chassis.

Touring just wrapped the steel frame with cloth dipped with probable a nasty forbidden chemical by now for the Superleggera bodies.
3m has got a tape for that same purpose, but I read epoxy paint on the steel frame is enough protection.


John Bonnett - 26/7/20 at 09:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I can' t wait to see the screen frame on the chassis.

Touring just wrapped the steel frame with cloth dipped with probable a nasty forbidden chemical by now for the Superleggera bodies.
3m has got a tape for that same purpose, but I read epoxy paint on the steel frame is enough protection.




Neither can I EB ha ha!

Outside to outside of the tubes at the base of the screen measure 1440mm which is 30mm wider than the outside of the tyres. So I have plan A and plan B.

Plan A is to increase the rim size from 4.5 to 6 inches with all the widening on the outside. This might be enough but if not,

Plan B which is Plan A + Widen the rear axle and front chassis cross member.


John Bonnett - 26/7/20 at 05:25 PM

I'm sure many of you think I've made a fundamental mistake in opting for the Fiesta windscreen because of it size in comparison with the chassis and there are times when I would have to agree particularly today when I offered the screen up and found the curvature of the bottom edge stretched as far forward as number two spark plug. So not only is there a width problem but we now have one with the curvature as well.

I'm so far down the road now that I'm refusing to start again so I'm hoping all will be well. I do have a few ideas and will keep you posted.

[Edited on 26/7/20 by John Bonnett]


HowardB - 26/7/20 at 06:00 PM

necessity is the mother of invention,.. I am sure that you are more than inventive enough,...

remember this ?

as stated before I look forward to each update post!

[Edited on 26/7/20 by HowardB]


John Bonnett - 27/7/20 at 10:10 AM

I forgot to say. EB thank you for your restraint in refraining from saying "I told you so!". Much appreciated.


ettore bugatti - 28/7/20 at 09:31 AM

Well, you are just sharing your project online. You dont have do anything what we say you could do.
But it is always interesting to see what challenges you face and to think off what solutions are possible.

I didn't see the overhang of the windscreen over the engine coming though. Are there any pictures?

Btw there is an English youtube channel called pedalbox, where they are building a fully bodied car from scratch. Might be worth a look.


John Bonnett - 28/7/20 at 11:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Well, you are just sharing your project online. You dont have do anything what we say you could do.
But it is always interesting to see what challenges you face and to think off what solutions are possible.

I didn't see the overhang of the windscreen over the engine coming though. Are there any pictures?

Btw there is an English youtube channel called pedalbox, where they are building a fully bodied car from scratch. Might be worth a look.


No, no pictures. I was quite shocked and went to lie down in a darkened room. So, after a bit of a re-think I've decided to move the A and Posts backwards by 280mm which I'm hoping will do the trick. As soon as I've got something to show I'll put a few photos on.

Thank you for the YouTube link. What a great forum this is, so much help and plenty of ideas. Let's just hope the site holds together.


John Bonnett - 28/7/20 at 07:31 PM

A very watchable series of videos, well presented and some really nice work particularly interesting to me as they are on a parallel course. Thank you for the link.


John Bonnett - 1/8/20 at 03:04 PM

Ive offered up the windscreen frame onto the two verticals and amazingly everything is pretty true and this time, well clear of the engine. Width is a concern but we'll have to wait for the wheels to see how it's all going to work (or not!) Overall height from the ground to the top of the roof is going to be around 49-50 inches with a ride height of 150mm.


HowardB - 1/8/20 at 03:27 PM

Oooo.. I like that...


John Bonnett - 1/8/20 at 03:45 PM

The next bit that has to happen is to cut out the transverse tube at the base of the windscreen. This is a pity and totally unforeseen but it clashes with the demister ducting of the dashboard. My initial thoughts were that having an electrically heated screen the ducting would be surplus but unfortunately it also connects the the face level outlets so it has to stay. I particularly want to use the Fiesta dashboard because it is built to modern standards and contains all the switches and gauges which will save quite a lot of money. I now have a 2002 Fiesta Ghia to use as a donor so it makes sense to go this way.

The dashboard is actually structural in that it contains a substantial cross tube which connects to the A posts and the steering column mount. So that's next on the agenda and then put in the steering column. This will define where the pedals and pedal box are located.


starterman - 1/8/20 at 03:49 PM

Very impressive John. I can see a visit on the cards soon. Socially distanced of course

Cheers
Mike


John Bonnett - 2/8/20 at 06:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by starterman
Very impressive John. I can see a visit on the cards soon. Socially distanced of course

Cheers
Mike



Love to see you Mike. I play every day so whenever convenient to you. You have my number

Cheers
John


John Bonnett - 3/8/20 at 03:47 PM

I've braced the uprights to ensure they stay vertical and removed the transverse tube to make space for the dashboard.

I'm still undecided about the body shape and hav done a few more sketches. Here's one showing the car in Estate body form.





[Edited on 3/8/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 4/8/20 at 03:34 PM

I've just fitted the 13inch x 6J rims with new Toyo Proxes and the new width is bang on what I calculated it should be, so a triumph for theory agreeing with practice. At present the outside to outside tyre dimension is 50mm more that the A post width but by keeping the screen frame where it is and moving the uprights back a few inches will reduce the width by a further 40mm and match up nicely with the dashboard fixings.

The photo shows the windscreen supporting tubes carry on getting wider apart after the screen channel begins to curve inwards. Once the uprights are moved to the new position that triangle can be cut off.

So, all in all a very good result and I can think about moving on, rather than having to lose valuable time (and money) in widening the front and rear axles.



[Edited on 4/8/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 4/8/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 9/8/20 at 07:55 AM

I've moved the verticals supporting the windscreen frame to the point where the screen is starting to curve inwards reducing the overall width by 90mm which brings the A post well inside the wheel measurement outside to outside.

Unfortunately the separate dashboard that I intended using as a pattern has had a smack in the side which wasn't obvious until it was offered up to the frame. The passenger side mounting bracket is distorted so I shan't be able to use it. Fortunately, I've just bought for an extremely modest price,a Fiesta Ghia which is sound and even has an MOT. So there will be a bit of a delay now until I can strip the parts out of that.

You might think it odd that I'm getting involved with the dashboard at such an early stage but in this case it is structural and has the mounting for the steering column which needs to go in to define where the pedals and pedal box are going to fit.

It should be a huge bonus in having a complete car which will yield so many useful parts which if purchased individually would vastly exceed the buying price of the car. We'll see how it works out.






[Edited on 9/8/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 9/8/20 by John Bonnett]


rdodger - 9/8/20 at 09:45 AM

Hi John

Will you use the fiesta doors & glass or at least the structure to make life a little easier?


John Bonnett - 9/8/20 at 09:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Hi John

Will you use the fiesta doors & glass or at least the structure to make life a little easier?


I'm going to milk the donor car for all it's worth Roger. Air conditioning, electric windows, door mirrors but the glass may be a bit short front to back. But I've spoken to our local windscreen man and he tells me that they have a man who cuts glass to size for tractors and agricultural vehicles so I'm hoping to be able to use the mechanisms if not the glasses.


rdodger - 9/8/20 at 10:09 AM

Would doors from a 3 door be suitable? They would be longer?


John Bonnett - 9/8/20 at 10:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Would doors from a 3 door be suitable? They would be longer?


Yes they would Roger and a much better shape as well. Perhaps a pair will come up locally.


ettore bugatti - 12/8/20 at 10:09 PM

This detailed drawing of the fiesta might help in planming out.
http://www.smcars.net/threads/ford-fiesta-mkiii-donated-by-alexk.1022/#lg=post-1250&slide=0


John Bonnett - 13/8/20 at 06:31 AM

Thanks EB. I'm not sure any of the body parts from the Fiesta will be of much use except perhaps the side window glasses. I'll try to position the B posts in similar positions to the Fiesta relative to the A posts with this in mind. There was a possibility of using glass from a three door but the A post is now so far back that there won't be room for them.

Frustratingly, I still cannot load any photos and because my posts are based on pictures rather than words I'm not sure there is much worth in continuing.

[Edited on 13/8/20 by John Bonnett]


rdodger - 13/8/20 at 09:23 AM

Retro Rides is an easy forum to use and add pictures. Some great builds on there.

https://forum.retro-rides.org/board/12/readers-rides


John Bonnett - 13/8/20 at 09:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Retro Rides is an easy forum to use and add pictures. Some great builds on there.

https://forum.retro-rides.org/board/12/readers-rides



But it's not the Locost forum Roger where I feel at home and amongst friends. Above all, I believe it is unsurpassed for the depth of knowledge on any subject and isn't populated by Jack the lads who have difficulty with the Queen's English. The Locost forum has been a huge help to me over the last 15 years or so and it is such a shame that I may be forced to move elsewhere.


HowardB - 13/8/20 at 09:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Retro Rides is an easy forum to use and add pictures. Some great builds on there.

https://forum.retro-rides.org/board/12/readers-rides


But it's not the Locost forum Roger where I feel at home and amongst friends. Above all, I believe it is unsurpassed for the depth of knowledge on any subject and isn't populated by Jack the lads who have difficulty with the Queen's English. The Locost forum has been a huge help to me over the last 15 years or so and it is such a shame that I may be forced to move elsewhere.


don't go,...... I am happy to try and help

[Edited on 13/8/20 by HowardB]


rdodger - 13/8/20 at 10:22 AM

I didn't mean you should leave John! It's just an easy place to log the build. Seem like a decent bunch.


John Bonnett - 13/8/20 at 10:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
I didn't mean you should leave John! It's just an easy place to log the build. Seem like a decent bunch.


It would be a very sad day if I did leave but to my mind just words don't cut it. We all like photos which I think are fundamental to describing what's happening and for those with eagle eyes to spot the mistakes.


gremlin1234 - 13/8/20 at 04:29 PM

please carry on taking photos of your progress, even if you can't post them on here at the moment.
I know that the forum supports photos hosted on other sites,
I shall try to put together a guide for hosting via 'dropbox', 'onedrive' or a photo hosting service.
but please keep taking pictures!


John Bonnett - 13/8/20 at 05:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
please carry on taking photos of your progress, even if you can't post them on here at the moment.
I know that the forum supports photos hosted on other sites,
I shall try to put together a guide for hosting via 'dropbox', 'onedrive' or a photo hosting service.
but please keep taking pictures!



I'm really touched that so many people are interested in my project and knowing that does give me a lift when things are not going well. It's a habit I've got into taking photos at every stage so as soon as I can I'll put them up here.

I have tried 23 a hosting site for storing photos and initially when I couldn't load them into my Locost album I used it and it worked okay but not now. This is what I get

[img]http://www.23hq.com/Ginetta/photo/73297147/original[/img]

So if you can put together a guide I'm sure I won't be the only one to be grateful to you. Many thanks.


gremlin1234 - 13/8/20 at 06:39 PM

yes the site can do some bizarre things with external images. currently I can post a message with your image, but it only appears if I have another image that works on its own.
I shall try to look into this further tomorrow, but will post in a new thread rather than divert this one any further.


John Bonnett - 13/8/20 at 07:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
yes the site can do some bizarre things with external images. currently I can post a message with your image, but it only appears if I have another image that works on its own.
I shall try to look into this further tomorrow, but will post in a new thread rather than divert this one any further.


See what I mean by the depth and breadth of knowledge here. Awesome! Many thanks from all of us who struggle.


John Bonnett - 14/8/20 at 05:19 PM

Grateful thanks to Gremlin for finding a way round the problem of loading photos. This is a test using ImgBB and it works!!

Although I'm still struggling to draw a 3D model this is the body style that I'm hoping to achieve.





[Edited on 14/8/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 14/8/20 at 05:37 PM

Are you going for a 2 seater?

If you would reuse the 3door Fiesta door it would save a lot of engineering time and an Alu reskin would hide their origin a little bit. The side glass from Ford will be cheaper than custom cut curved glass, although you wouldn't need the e-marking.

See if you can do surfaces in Fushion 360 instead of extrusions, that will move the model to the next level. With surfaces you also will be able to model the windscreen more closely to the right shape.

Again, just thoughts. Keep going!


John Bonnett - 14/8/20 at 06:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going for a 2 seater?

If you would reuse the 3door Fiesta door it would save a lot of engineering time and an Alu reskin would hide their origin a little bit. The side glass from Ford will be cheaper than custom cut curved glass, although you wouldn't need the e-marking.

See if you can do surfaces in Fushion 360 instead of extrusions, that will move the model to the next level. With surfaces you also will be able to model the windscreen more closely to the right shape.

Again, just thoughts. Keep going!



It's the input and encouragement from everyone that keeps me going so please keep the thoughts coming. Really appreciated.

I'd love to be able to draw up a 3D model and I'm spending a lot of drawing time trying to get to grips with the sculpting feature of Fusion 360. I'm making progress but it isn't quick.

I'm not sure about using the Fiesta doors although as you say if I could, it would save a huge amount of time. My screen angles at 30 degrees whilst the one on the Fiesta is nearer 33. So the slope on the door glass might not match. The door is taller too and perhaps a little short. But well worth checking before I finally decide on the position of the B post. Many thanks once again. John


John Bonnett - 21/8/20 at 08:13 AM

I'm a bit held up at the moment waiting for the aircon gas to be responsibly removed from the donor Fiesta before stripping down can commence. I need the dashboard and steering column before I can move forward. But in the meantime I have been able to finalise the position of the B post and connect the A and B posts with the basis of a sill.

My son has sketched out an idea based on a Ferrari FF which has made me question my decision to build an Estate body. Personally I don't care for the Ferrari but scaled down as it would be I think it could work and look very attractive. Here's his sketch.





[Edited on 21/8/20 by John Bonnett]


HowardB - 21/8/20 at 08:40 AM

how about a version of the breadvan?


John Bonnett - 21/8/20 at 09:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
how about a version of the breadvan?





Not as bad as that Russian thing but not to my taste Howard.


HowardB - 21/8/20 at 11:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
how about a version of the breadvan?

Not as bad as that Russian thing but not to my taste Howard.


It would certainly be an exotic conversion for a kitten and a fiesta


gremlin1234 - 21/8/20 at 02:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
It would certainly be an exotic conversion for a kitten and a fiesta

would that make it a kittsta or a fiesten ?


ettore bugatti - 21/8/20 at 02:47 PM

Your son got talent, just let him follow with a top view drawing to see if it can work out.

Have you tried to position the door opening in the middle of the wheelbase?
Personally, I think that might look better with the A-pillar moved slightly forwards. The visual weight is now very much over the rear wheels like an Allard.




This Daytona shooting brake is pretty funky too!


[Edited on 21/8/20 by ettore bugatti]


HowardB - 21/8/20 at 02:50 PM

This Daytona shooting brake is pretty funky too!


never seen that before - it is interesting - very much a marmite car - bit like the breadvan!


John Bonnett - 21/8/20 at 05:28 PM

Great replies, thank you.

Son Chris made his sketch using my Estate body drawing and tracing through so that the fixed dimensions are the same and I think it works very well. Whether I can make it is another matter entirely.

I'm really too far down the line now to move the A post which as you remember is where it is to avoid putting part of the screen right over the top of the engine. It possibly could have been placed a bit further forward but it was convenient to pick up on an existing outrigger. Most modern transverse engine cars have a very short distance between the A post and the wheel centre giving them a short stubby bonnet. I rather like the designs where this distance is greater enabling a longer bonnet and the seating towards the rear axle. It might be possible to extend the forward edge of the door forward of the A post to create the illusion but this would depend on the hinge design and if when opened the front edge of the door fouled the bulkhead. There's so much to consider. Waste height is another dimension crucial to the image of the car. Too low and we end up with Granny's Fiesta. I have played around with window heights and have gone for what I've drawn. It follows the modern trend.


John Bonnett - 22/8/20 at 03:38 PM

A couple of photos showing the progress so far.

I'm using 50 x 25 x 2mm erw for the basis of the sills which will tie the A & B posts together at the bottom. The body frame has shoes welded to the ends of the tube and these are a nice fit over the outriggers. They are bolted on so that the body can be removed.

One B post is formed and stood in position. It needs to have provision for a seat belt before finally welding in and before that can happen, the seat needs to be in place.



ettore bugatti - 23/8/20 at 04:38 PM

I wasn't suggesting a front wheel based cab forward design, but I would have tried to align the a post with the end of the bell housing. I see that there is no member to mount the a post there.
Are the b posts 50mm diameter tube?


John Bonnett - 23/8/20 at 05:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I wasn't suggesting a front wheel based cab forward design, but I would have tried to align the a post with the end of the bell housing. I see that there is no member to mount the a post there.
Are the b posts 50mm diameter tube?


Until this point, I've never taken a lot of notice of where the doors are in relation to the wheelbase and neither have I really taken much notice of sill profile and the position in relation to the track, both of which are important to the visual effect. There is so much to think about and take into account when trying to build from scratch. I need to be happy in my own mind that what I'm trying to achieve will when completed be aesthetically pleasing and not just an ugly curiosity, obviously the result of an amateur build.

I take your point about moving the A post forward but having it where it is works well with the constraints of the chassis and is in keeping with the Daytona which I think looks okay.

The tubing I'm using is 33.7mm x 3mm wall. It's not designed as a roll cage just a frame to unrepin the alloy body.







[Edited on 23/8/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 23/8/20 at 06:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I wasn't suggesting a front wheel based cab forward design, but I would have tried to align the a post with the end of the bell housing. I see that there is no member to mount the a post there.
Are the b posts 50mm diameter tube?


Until this point, I've never taken a lot of notice of where the doors are in relation to the wheelbase and neither have I really taken much notice of sill profile and the position in relation to the track, both of which are important to the visual effect. There is so much to think about and take into account when trying to build from scratch. I need to be happy in my own mind that what I'm trying to achieve will when completed be aesthetically pleasing and not just an ugly curiosity, obviously the result of an amateur build.

I take your point about moving the A post forward but having it where it is works well with the constraints of the chassis and is in keeping with the Daytona, towards the rear which I think looks okay.

The tubing I'm using is 33.7mm x 3mm wall. It's not designed as a roll cage just a frame to unrepin the alloy body.







[Edited on 23/8/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 23/8/20 at 07:08 PM

Fair enough if you more after a 2 seater sportsbreak.

It was just because the orginal kitten and the Beta HPE were four seaters and have a more forward A post and space after the door. That made me wonder on the a pillar position.

If looks right it is right


John Bonnett - 23/8/20 at 08:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Fair enough if you more after a 2 seater sportsbreak.

It was just because the orginal kitten and the Beta HPE were four seaters and have a more forward A post and space after the door. That made me wonder on the a pillar position.

If looks right it is right


Sorry for the confusion. I'm confused so I can imagine how everyone else must feel. Plans have changed frequently down the line and you are absolutely right, my original objective was to create a sports brake based on the Lancia HPE which of course is a four seater. That was binned with the pivotal decision (perhaps not one of my best but there were solid reasons behind it) to use a Fiesta MK4 windscreen. You quite rightly pointed out its height and width and questioned whether its suitability. To make it work, I have, as you pointed out, had to widen the track and to design a body around it which took me away from the original concept. Moving the A post rearwards meant it had to be a two seater and that's where we are now.

I have concerns about the height of the waist, the point where the screen and A post angle backwards. It looks high but with the seat put in it needs to be that height to give sufficient headroom because of the steep rake on the screen. Even with over 7.5 inches of ground clearance, it still only stands 50 inches from the ground, about the same as an MGB.

Whether it will look right, well, I hope so but won't really get an idea until the buck takes shape.


John Bonnett - 24/8/20 at 12:56 PM

Using Chris' sketch as an imported canvas into Fusion 360 I've scaled it and put in offset dimensions. This will give me datum points to make up some sweeps and the longitudinal stringer of the wire frame buck. This should get the side profile under way but more information will be needed for the front and top views.


ettore bugatti - 24/8/20 at 01:49 PM

Buy a copy of H-Point: The Fundamentals of Car Design and Packaging

Well worth the money to put in the project and your son is probably gonna love it.

Have you check the ingress and exit of the door opening?
I normally end up with a door length of about 110cm when designing two door cars, I'm also concerned that the front of driver and passenger head is a bit too close to the top of the windscreen frame. Have you done test sit with the seats?


John Bonnett - 24/8/20 at 03:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Buy a copy of H-Point: The Fundamentals of Car Design and Packaging

Well worth the money to put in the project and your son is probably gonna love it.

Have you check the ingress and exit of the door opening?
I normally end up with a door length of about 110cm when designing two door cars, I'm also concerned that the front of driver and passenger head is a bit too close to the top of the windscreen frame. Have you done test sit with the seats?



Many thanks for the book recommendation. Well worth a punt.

Before the bracing went in which currently prevents putting a seat in, we did try one in and when sitting, eye level is about half way up the screen. I'm using MX5 seats. I don't remember that the top rail was a concern but a valid point and well worth re-checking; thank you. The only way to achieve a 110cm door is to move the A post by 116mm which I really don't want to do. The B post is back as far as it will go. Apart from ease of access is there any other reason apart from aesthetics to have it that wide?



[Edited on 24/8/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 24/8/20 at 05:22 PM

To be honest it looks ok in the photo, is the seat back next to the b post?
Just look whether you can put a sun visor down without smacking your head and if you can lean forwards without hitting the windscreen.
That length of 110cm is just what you roughly get if take in account the access with some space to slot a briefcase behind the seat. It is offcourse possible to go shorter when the height is raised, but then you end with a door of a van/ truck.


John Bonnett - 24/8/20 at 05:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
To be honest it looks ok in the photo, is the seat back next to the b post?
Just look whether you can put a sun visor down without smacking your head and if you can lean forwards without hitting the windscreen.
That length of 110cm is just what you roughly get if take in account the access with some space to slot a briefcase behind the seat. It is offcourse possible to go shorter when the height is raised, but then you end with a door of a van/ truck.



EB you've raised doubts in my mind so I'l risk a bit of movement and cut out one of the bracing struts that prevents a seat from going in. I'll try sitting in the seat again and reassess.

The A post could come forward by about 110mm which was where it was before I moved it to its current spot. The reason I moved it back by that amount was to accommodate the bit of scuttle from the Fiesta that has the wipers and heater air intake without any clashes with the wiper motor and engine. Using this piece off the Fiesta will be very helpful.

However, one benefit of moving the A post towards the front would be to bring the gear lever within easier reach.

[Edited on 24/8/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 27/8/20 at 12:34 PM

I've just moved the A post assembly into what I hope will be its final resting place which is in fact where it was before I decided to move it back 118mm. This was to allow room for the bit of the Fiesta scuttle with the wiper arms on it and prevent it from overhanging the engine but it's back where it was and I'll just have to work round that. It certainly puts the screen in a better place in relation to the seat and also the gear lever. So a compromise but on balance the best option. Sitting in the seat, there's about 8 inches between head and windscreen frame so ample room to bring a sun visor down without hitting the old bonse.

EB the door will be no more than 90mm, less than the 110 that you prefer but the best I can do.




[Edited on 27/8/20 by John Bonnett]


HowardB - 27/8/20 at 12:53 PM

quote:







that looks good to the eye


John Bonnett - 27/8/20 at 01:11 PM

Thank you Howard, it does to me too. As EB said if it looks right it is right.

I'm just waiting for the threaded inserts for the upper seat belt mounts which I'll weld in to the B posts before finally fixing them in position.

There's been a lot of messing about to reach this point but the stages had to be gone through and all the options explored to find the best one and I think we have and that's where we're at now.

I've been putting it off because it's an awful job but I do have to start stripping bits off the Fiesta, principally the dashboard and steering column which I need to fit before being able to proceed much further.

I haven't given up trying to draw up the car in Fusion but I'm finding it damn difficult but nonetheless fascinating. I've a long way to go but progress has been made.


John Bonnett - 28/8/20 at 05:21 PM

I've extended the sill components to suit the new position of the A posts and drilled some more lightening holes. I haven't weighed the discs that have been removed but the tubes do feel appreciably lighter and in my opinion look better for it. Academic of course because they'll be encapsulated in the sills. Before finally installing, the B posts will have 7/16"UNF threaded inserts welded in at eye level for the top seat belt mounts. I'm very close now to having the whole frame assembly welded in place and putting that part of the build to bed.

I'm not sure if this is going to be possible but I'm hoping to be able to cut out from the Fiesta not only the scuttle that houses the wiper arm spindles but also the adjoining section containing the screen bed and the dashboard fixings. I'm thinking about removing a section of the screen frame that I formed and letting in the part from the Fiesta. It probably won't work for one reason or another but it might, and if it does it will be really helpful in providing built in top fixings for the dashboard.

[Edited on 28/8/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 28/8/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 29/8/20 at 12:32 PM

I haven't worked with Fusion before, but the T-spline modeling looks interesting enough. Look like if the modelling is approached as building a 3d grid/ wire buck/ sections, the end result should be pretty good.

I think 90cm wide doors make sense here, because on a clean sheet paper design I would put the B post behind the seats. So that would easily explain the extra 20cm.

I guess you need split the firewall of the Fiesta in a upper and lower section since your windscreen is more angled than on the Fiesta. The Quantum 2+2 and H4 were Fiesta based, so maybe you can steal/ be inspired by their solutions. Would the Fiesta heater assembly be in the way with the bellhousing?

https://www.quantumowners.club/images/ZetecConversion/p4100114.jpg

[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]

[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]


John Bonnett - 29/8/20 at 01:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I haven't worked with Fusion before, but the T-spline modeling looks interesting enough. Look like if the modelling is approached as building a 3d grid/ wire buck/ sections, the end result should be pretty good.

I think 90cm wide doors make sense here, because on a clean sheet paper design I would put the B post behind the seats. So that would easily explain the extra 20cm.

I guess you need split the firewall of the Fiesta in a upper and lower section since your windscreen is more angled than on the Fiesta. The Quantum 2+2 and H4 were Fiesta based, so maybe you can steal/ be inspired by their solutions. Would the Fiesta heater assembly be in the way with the bellhousing?

https://www.quantumowners.club/images/ZetecConversion/p4100114.jpg

[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]

[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]


EB, my thanks.

My grandson who is in full time education enrolled on the Autodesk Design Academy and by good fortune he uses my computer (ha ha) so I now have access to a lot of tutorials which is what has enabled me to get to the point I'm at now. A huge improvement but a long way from being able to produce a detailed and useful model.

I'm questioning some of the dimensions I'm working with, in particular the height of the finished scuttle but this should become clearer once the Fiesta parts are transferred over and I can take some solid measurements.

My hope is that I'll be able to use some of the firewall and the whole heater assembly including the aircon matrix which would be a huge bonus with the correct pipe bores as well as a cost saving in avoiding having to buy an after market heater/aircon unit. It looks promising is all I can say at the moment.

My screen at 30 degrees is raked a little more than the Fiesta but by only a bit. Some time ago I did put the Fiesta on level ground and take a measurement but I've forgotten what it was exactly but in the range 32-35 degrees I believe. Whether this will make for any difficulties in transferring over the parts remains to be seen.

Thank you for the link to the Quantum site. A very good thought bearing in mind the Fiesta base.

[Edited on 29/8/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 7/9/20 at 01:40 PM

Not a huge amount of progress, well not any really on any front other than I've just ordered a propshaft from Bailey Morris which should arrive some time next week. A nice company to do business with in my experience.

I welded in a couple of diagonal braces across the corners of the B post and horizontal tube to the centre of the windscreen rail. What I hadn't foreseen was the restriction in headroom they would cause so they've got to come out which is a bit annoying but my own stupid fault. The roof will have curvature and this is what will provide adequate headroom. I've also placed the seat belt mounts too high up on the B post I fear. Nothing that can't be rectified but definitely not one of my best week's work.

There will be a lot of cutting out to be done from the donor Fiesta and I'm currently considering buying an R-Tech plasma cutter which should be more precise than a disc on an angle grinder. R-Tech are not cheap but they are made down here in the west country, offer great support and a decent warranty.


John Bonnett - 14/9/20 at 06:21 PM

Just one week from placing the order with Bailey Morris the propshaft arrived, great service and very well made. Above all, it fits! I never doubted them, it was my measurements!


HowardB - 14/9/20 at 06:35 PM

ooo - exciting progress!

looks really good

thank you for posting the updates


John Bonnett - 14/9/20 at 06:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
ooo - exciting progress!

looks really good

thank you for posting the updates


I have to say that I'm pretty excited about it too Howard. The bodyworks may take second place to getting it plumbed, wired and running. There's nothing like being able to start the engine to give the old spirits a lift and push the project on. They'll be some major costs with the management system but it's a one off cost and the end result will release a bit more power from the engine rather than staying with the standard system which I am sure works perfectly well and a whole lot cheaper.


John Bonnett - 22/9/20 at 01:01 PM

I've drawn out the side roof profile full size from the drawing which was imported and scaled into Fusion 360 and transposed it onto 4mm ply. When offered up to the frame the rear overhang looks enormous and far too great. But the dimensions seem to work on the sketch.

Perhaps the front has to be done in the same way so that the rear is in context.



[Edited on 22/9/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 22/9/20 at 04:46 PM

You could use it as the centre spline and have a more curved back end (from top view) compared to a flat back end.

An easy way to translate proportions and scale is to work with with wheel diameters.
Since you are using 185/60R13 with a diameter of 552mm and the Ferrari has roughly 710mm diameter wheels. So that's 23% difference

So the rear overhang of a FF of 1017mm should be about 780mm overhang on your build, I think your earlier drawing had a overhang closer to that.


Wheelbase: 3 or 2 4/5x wheel
Overhang: rear and front
Door line: 1/3
Roof: or 4/5

There might be some overlap with SUV proportions as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEeov0cvvrY


Mr Whippy - 22/9/20 at 08:29 PM

Looks like a foot out and doesn't match the sketch


John Bonnett - 22/9/20 at 08:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Looks like a foot out and doesn't match the sketch


Spot on. The final curve is wrong. I'm not sure how but it should be more towards the vertical. I'll have a play with it tomorrow.


John Bonnett - 22/9/20 at 08:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
You could use it as the centre spline and have a more curved back end (from top view) compared to a flat back end.

An easy way to translate proportions and scale is to work with with wheel diameters.
Since you are using 185/60R13 with a diameter of 552mm and the Ferrari has roughly 710mm diameter wheels. So that's 23% difference

So the rear overhang of a FF of 1017mm should be about 780mm overhang on your build, I think your earlier drawing had a overhang closer to that.


Wheelbase: 3 or 2 4/5x wheel
Overhang: rear and front
Door line: 1/3
Roof: or 4/5

There might be some overlap with SUV proportions as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEeov0cvvrY



Thank you EB once again. I needed something to start with and now I have the shape can be adjusted.

I cannot go up any larger with the wheels because of the already high diff ratio which is something like 3.2 so we're stuck with them. I could drop the height of the frame but this would have a knock-on effect with the Fiesta parts that I'd really like to use if possible.

I get sweaty palms with any mention of SUVs so I really do need to keep right out of their territory.


ettore bugatti - 23/9/20 at 12:49 PM

Using wheel diameters is only an indication off course.
I dont think a 295/40R21 tyre is something you want to incorporate.

I mentioned SUV, because the rear overhang might work for a shooting brake too and they manage a similar poportion wheel diameter to overall height as you might be working too.
I'm not suggesting designing a SUV. The ground clearance and mass above the wheels is not shared with a shooting brake.


2 1/4 wheel diameter would give you about 124cm total height, with a ground clearance of 12cm.
There is 112cm of body height, where about 37cm is for the side windows and 74cm for the belt line.
Dont be too fixated on these dimensions, you can easily deviate by 5cm if it looks right.


John Bonnett - 23/9/20 at 05:37 PM

Had a go at reshaping the lower curve and this I think looks better. Difficult to see it in context without any front bodywork and of course, the screen and scuttle projects forward and is significantly lower than the point where the A post vertical meets the screen pillar which gives the impression of a very high waist.

The rear overhang from the wheel centre is 830mm, a bit more than EB was suggesting but the curve seems to work.
Overall height from the ground is currently 1290mm or 50.7 inches but the car isn't sitting at ride height. Ground clearance is 9 inches at the front and nearly 8 at the rear. This should come down to about 7 inches front and rear or 178mm which would bring the overall height to about 1250mm or 49 inches which is what I was hoping for.


gremlin1234 - 23/9/20 at 09:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett


I saw this image and instantly thought of the austin allegro profile


John Bonnett - 24/9/20 at 05:40 AM

I saw this image and instantly thought of the austin allegro profile


Oh dear!


ettore bugatti - 24/9/20 at 11:01 AM

Maybe worth considering bobtailing it a bit.

This sketch is with a much shorter rear overhang


It is also quite tricky to get the area between the front wheel and A-pillar to look good.


John Bonnett - 24/9/20 at 12:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Maybe worth considering bobtailing it a bit.

This sketch is with a much shorter rear overhang


It is also quite tricky to get the area between the front wheel and A-pillar to look good.



I was thinking of a kamm tail, perhaps with a reverse angle, as well which I think would look okay. But I'm happy with the sloping profile as it is where it drops down immediately after the B post as drawn in my sketch and maybe with a bit more overhang than you have shown in the above. It's fascinating how ideas evolve particularly when people like yourself get involved and move the idea on; something I really appreciate.


[Edited on 24/9/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 25/9/20 at 12:08 PM

I've managed to drop the seat height by 50mm which will allow 50mm to be taken out of the height of the frame and this I'm hoping will make a significant difference to the appearance of the side profile which itself is also going to be adjusted to be less bulbous. This is a good example where a starting point is needed to have something to work with, to adjust and tweek to the point where it is close to what looks right. There will be a knock on effect of lowering the frame which will probably prevent using the Fiesta dashboard complete but a small price to pay to get a shape that pleases the eye.


John Bonnett - 26/9/20 at 12:45 PM

Before getting down to the serious business of reducing the height of the frame I've just finished off the lower radiator mounting which brings the top of the radiator well under the bonnet line which is a relief. I'm using a radiator and condensor from a MK1 Focus which although larger than the one from the Fiesta is more suitable because both hose connections face the rear while one of the pipes from the Fiesta rad emerges to the side which would cause problems with the hose fouling the front suspension. By insering spigots into the rectangular tubes I've been able to retain the the rubber buffers of the standard Ford mounting. The top mounting needs to be removable so there's still more work to be done.



[Edited on 26/9/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 26/9/20 at 01:19 PM

Dropping the seats by 50mm is quite a lot. That will give you a lot of design freedom.

Getting the hardpoints as low as possible will benefit CoG height and it always easier for the bodywork if you have space to play with.


John Bonnett - 26/9/20 at 05:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Dropping the seats by 50mm is quite a lot. That will give you a lot of design freedom.

Getting the hardpoints as low as possible will benefit CoG height and it always easier for the bodywork if you have space to play with.


I've dropped the height of the frame down by 65mm which has made a huge difference to the proportions and I'm very happy with the result. The diagonal bracing was always coming out but depending on the position of the seat I may have to either put a bow in the cross tube from the B posts or fab something up in its place should additional headroom be needed. I think today we have made a very good step forward. Thank you for your patient guidance EB. I may be slow but I hope and believe I'm getting there.

With the help of son Chris the job went very well. We used a guide to cut the tube square and removed 65mm from each leg also using a guide. Sleeve inserts will ensure a strong joint and perfect realignment. At the moment the frame is just lodged in place with welding due tomorrow.

The chassis is sitting on 200mm thick blocks and the overall height is now 47.5 inches or 1207mm. Ride height will be 7.5 inches which will bring the overall height down to 47 inches. Maybe slightly highter in the centre of the roof taking into account the crown.







[Edited on 26/9/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 27/9/20 at 12:46 PM

Refitting the lowered frame proved remarkably easy using the thick wall steel tube sleeves. The top just slipped onto the spigots and welded round. Job done and what a difference it has made to the side view. It really does look right now.




[Edited on 27/9/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 27/9/20 at 04:03 PM

Now this is really exciting. Superimposing the scaled sketch onto the scaled photo of the reduced height frame the two images line up almost perfectly. I'm not sure how clear the picture will be but we're marching now!


[Edited on 27/9/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 28/9/20 at 01:16 PM

What a difference a couple of inches make!

This might interesting youtube series to follow:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaBjCZNX9ufeOwbR7FtRghw


John Bonnett - 28/9/20 at 01:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
What a difference a couple of inches make!

This might interesting youtube series to follow:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaBjCZNX9ufeOwbR7FtRghw



Indeed it does EB. I'm amazed at the transformation which has gone from not what I was hoping for to being pretty near spot on.

Thank you for the link which funnily enough I subscribed to yesterday. I always enjoy metal shaping videos and admire not only the skills of the craftsmen but also the variety of ways they go about getting the results they want. I've always gas welded the panels together as he does and the big advantage of gas welding is that the weld bead and heat affected zones are fully annealed and maleable making further working easy with little risk of cracking. But the downside is the cost of the gas and this time I'm considering TIG welding which many of the American metal shapers do. With no flux to wash away afterwards it is a much cleaner process and maybe less distortion as well. If i find I need oxy/acetylene for bending tube I may well gas weld after all. I'm a fair way from being at that stage but I'm hopeful now of having the basic dimensions to produce a sports car rather than an SUV which I absolutely do not want to do.

The Plasma cutter arrives tomorrow so I'll be able to cut some metal out of the Fiesta. I'm resigned to not being able to use the dashboard but that's a small price to pay against achieving the car I really want to build. The dashboard and column rake on the Fiesta is too tall making for an upright seating position. As a minimum I should be able to transfer over the scuttle and windscreen wiper motor mounting and anything else will be a bonus. I'm expecting to still to be able to use the instrument cluster and switches.

At one point I thought the Fiesta rear screen was out of the question but now I'm hopeful that it might fit in quite nicely and being free I shall make a special effort.

Probably the next stage will be to fabricate a structure to support the floor and transmission tunnel. The tunnel isn't structural but it does need to be substantial enough for the handbrake and seatbelt mountings.

[Edited on 28/9/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 29/9/20 at 09:21 PM

The R-tech plasma cutter arrived today, nicely made and well packed. It came with a dryer which took a bit of time to fit to the compressor but essential to good results and longevity of the machine and consumables. I had a brief play with it and it was evident that a bit of practice will be needed to be able to sense the optimum speed of moving the torch over the job. Mr Urch recommends running at maximum power irrespective of the material thickness to avoid pumping undue heat into the material which makes perfect sense.

We'll try it for real tomorrow on the Fiesta.


John Bonnett - 30/9/20 at 03:30 PM

Today has been a landmark transferring over the scuttle from the Fiesta and this really does give an indication of how the car might look. I don't know if you'd agree EB but I'm very happy with the proportions both from the side and the front.

The interface between my frame and pillars and the Fiesta part will need a bit of work to blend in but considering that in getting to this point there was a lot of guess work and only a little measuring the result is to me anyway astounding and very encouraging. The Fiesta scuttle is only tacked in and may well have to come out at least once before it's finally fixed in place.

The plasma cutter was awesome cutting through the multi skins with ease and being able to cut to whatever shape was necessary. I was really impressed by the construction of the Ford bodywork which gives so much inherent strength from relatively thin metal.





[Edited on 30/9/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 1/10/20 at 03:54 PM

This must be the firstbuild in history where the windscreen wipers have been installed before just about anything else. But I just needed confirmation that the linkage would clear the cam covers and it does. Only having had experience with the Lucas Bundy tubes and rack systems this is amazingly simple both to fit and to get at if necessary.

Trial fitting the steering column to the Fiesta mounting produced for me, a perfect setat/steering wheel position. But and this is a big but, the column mount is relatively low and the edges of the bracket would be lethal in a crash. I'm hoping that chamfering and padding may be possible. The alternative is to mount the column higher but this would put the wheel more towards vertical if you understand me and at present, the angle feels just right and I'm reluctant to change it.



[Edited on 1/10/20 by John Bonnett]


HowardB - 1/10/20 at 04:01 PM

that looks good, I see what you mean about crash test dummy impaling points, perhaps some sort of cowling might help, or an anti-submarine strap?

I like the wiper fit test, that seems logical, to be fair I feel that it works to test and trial the parts as they come up


rdodger - 1/10/20 at 04:47 PM

How close is it to your knees? We need a picture with you sat in the seat. From that angle it looks like it would be between your knees.


John Bonnett - 1/10/20 at 05:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
How close is it to your knees? We need a picture with you sat in the seat. From that angle it looks like it would be between your knees.


It is between the knees Roger and doesn't cause an obstruction but my fear is that in the event of a crash, if the knees were pushed sideways it could do serious damage and I would like to avoid the risk both to me and anybody else who might be driving. I haven't had a chance to see what can be done but I'm hopeful that the problem can be got round.

I will put a photo on showing what I mean.


John Bonnett - 2/10/20 at 09:45 AM

Here are a couple of photos which show my concerns over the sharp edges of the bracket retaining the steering column. Looking at it, I think the whole thing can be sculpted to smooth without losing the integrity of the mounting.





[Edited on 2/10/20 by John Bonnett]


rdodger - 2/10/20 at 09:53 AM

I see what you mean

Perhaps it could be smoothed and a bit reduced? Maybe make a high density foam cover around it with a thin GRP skin?


John Bonnett - 2/10/20 at 10:30 AM

My second attempt at plotting the body profile has been much more successful and conforms very well to what I'm hoping to achieve.


John Bonnett - 2/10/20 at 10:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
I see what you mean

Perhaps it could be smoothed and a bit reduced? Maybe make a high density foam cover around it with a thin GRP skin?


I'm sure we can do something with it Roger. The steering position is too good to compromise and settle for second best.


John Bonnett - 2/10/20 at 03:16 PM

With the outline put onto a piece of ply and offered up, it all looks pretty close now with only the valence to be adjusted to give a bit more ground clearance.


ettore bugatti - 2/10/20 at 06:25 PM

That is great progress!

Have you trial fitted the pedal box yet? If you can left foot brake then I would say the column is at the right height.


Difficult to judge the steering column position, I guess in a Locost the steering column is more horizontal in combination with a different mounting scheme.
Although I drove a modern Merc SL the other day that had the ignition key sticking out from the column and only 5cm away from my knee.

Any further development/ ideas on the doors?


steve m - 2/10/20 at 07:52 PM

If you were to look at most tin tops, the steering cowl behind the steering wheel is probably not much different to how you have it now
I dont think you will get a good refection untill the steering wheel is on, and cowls etc under

steve


John Bonnett - 2/10/20 at 08:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
If you were to look at most tin tops, the steering cowl behind the steering wheel is probably not much different to how you have it now
I dont think you will get a good refection untill the steering wheel is on, and cowls etc under

steve



Yes at the moment I agree it is only an indication of how it is going to be but I'm very happy with the seat wheel position so I want to work around that if I can.


John Bonnett - 2/10/20 at 08:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
That is great progress!

Have you trial fitted the pedal box yet? If you can left foot brake then I would say the column is at the right height.


Difficult to judge the steering column position, I guess in a Locost the steering column is more horizontal in combination with a different mounting scheme.
Although I drove a modern Merc SL the other day that had the ignition key sticking out from the column and only 5cm away from my knee.

Any further development/ ideas on the doors?


Thank you EB. I was hoping you would see my post and let me know what you think.

I'm not sure what to do about the pedal box. I can't use the one from the Fiesta without a lot of work because the brake pedal operates a rod that goes to the master cyliner/servo located on the lefthand side of the car. The Reliant pedal box uses an MGB master cylinder which is mounted on the back facing the steering wheel not at the front. My thoughts are to use the pedal box but fit a master cylinder with a remote reservoir which would make installation easier. Getting the distance between the pedals and the floor is critical so I do want to get that right. Are there any standards I could refer to?

To be honest I was surprised when I sat behind the wheel and found how right it felt. I was expecting the wheel to be too low and angled too much upwards but strangely that wasn't the case. It felt as if it had been tailored for me. I can place the seat in line with the steering wheel and the pedals will be in line too. No more offset steering, seating and pedals on this build (I hope!).

I'm sure I'll be able to form a padded panel around the column and mounting bracket once a little trimming has been done.

The doors. Well, I'm going to make them and my plan is to use Lexan instead of glass but still using the electric operation from the Fiesta. . The lower front side window corner which is a triangle will be filled as on the Fiesta with a door mirror. That's the plan but as we know plans do change, never more so than on this project.



[Edited on 2/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 3/10/20 at 09:24 AM

One advantage of the early stages of a build is that there is a multiplicity of areas that can be tackled completely seperate from each other so if boredom sets in in one direction it is easy to set about doing something else. At the moment I've been concentrating on the basics of the front bulkhead, radiator and seat mountings all very necessary in determining where other bits will fit in. But, do you know, I fancy doing a bit of metal shaping and I thought I might start with the roof which although low crown is probably the most difficult panel for me to make. But before that I'll need a buck and this time instead of using plywood I thought I'd try wire. This is 6mm diameter steel and not as easy as one would think to bend but I'm going to give it a try anyway.


John Bonnett - 4/10/20 at 03:22 PM

With a little bit of adjustment my formed screen aperture interfaced nicely with the Fiesta base and scuttle. At the moment my formed frame is only held in with welded tabs but when I'm confident that everything is true I can make it secure and solid with some more material.


Deckman001 - 4/10/20 at 04:31 PM

Hi John,

Am not sure if I've posted on your topic yet, but having looked through your posts and what you are doing, I'm very impressed what you are trying to do and are actually doing it. I thought building a locost was not for the fainthearted, but what you are doing takes real engineering and determination.

Well done and please keep it up it helps us all.

Jason


John Bonnett - 4/10/20 at 05:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Deckman001
Hi John,

Am not sure if I've posted on your topic yet, but having looked through your posts and what you are doing, I'm very impressed what you are trying to do and are actually doing it. I thought building a locost was not for the fainthearted, but what you are doing takes real engineering and determination.

Well done and please keep it up it helps us all.

Jason



Jason, thank you. Actually it is our community that helps me, keeps me motivated and on course through amazing generosity, knowledge and advice so freely given.

As far as this project is concerned, I do realise that it is massive and absolute madness, pushing 80 as I am to even consider undertaking such a thing but I'm loving every minute of it, well almost and I'm convinced it is keeping me going. I'm trying to block out the bigger picture which could be very daunting and concentrate on the individual jobs, complete in themselves and one by one they get ticked off. Bitesize mouthfuls.

I really appreciate your comments and advice so please do keep them coming. Thank you.


ettore bugatti - 4/10/20 at 05:08 PM

Are you going to upgrade to a dual master cylinder? Would be nice to have a front/rear split brake system.

Pedal position wise, it would make sense that you operate the pedal with the ball of your feet not the heel. And you have to take in account the pedal ratio, so you get the right pedal feel and required force.


John Bonnett - 4/10/20 at 05:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Are you going to upgrade to a dual master cylinder? Would be nice to have a front/rear split brake system.

Pedal position wise, it would make sense that you operate the pedal with the ball of your feet not the heel. And you have to take in account the pedal ratio, so you get the right pedal feel and required force.


Big problems in the pedal box department EB and I don't know how to proceed. My original intention was to use the one from the Kitten which is suitable for a cable clutch and because I have it. But it has to be in line with the steering however, in that position the rearward facing master cylinder will foul the wiper motor mounting. So I'm going to investigate whether it might be possible to move the motor out of the way which will involve cutting and welding of the linkage, not straightforward but no cost if it is possible. The obvious solution is to have a floor mounted pedal box which would get round the problem but I don't want a bias system which seems to be all that the after market suppliers offer and to my mind they are enormously expensive for what they are. Failing everything else, I may have to make one myself.

Dual circuit? Probably not although I can see the advantage. Disadvantage is the additional length of the master cylinder although academic if I cannot find room for a single.

[Edited on 4/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 5/10/20 at 06:31 AM

Having given the pedal box some more thought I think the best option is to fit a floor mounted one whre I don't think there will be any clearance issues. Having remote reservoir(s) rather an integral they can be placed anywhere convenient for topping up. Although I could make one it's another job and if I could buy one for a reasonable cost that would be my preferred option.

Stop Press
By sheer luck a brand new OBP pedal box has come up on Ebay with a Best Offer option and I have managed to snag it. This is complete with master cylinders, reservoirs and clutch cable attachment.

[Edited on 5/10/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 6/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 7/10/20 at 12:59 PM

At last, a bit of metal shaping. This first bit is a corner piece to reinforce the fixing of the windscreen frame onto the round tube. Using the trusty cardboard aided design technique the curve was marked out and transferred onto two pieces of plywood. The material was also marked up using a simple trick to draw in the extra material for the 12mm flange. The steel sheet was sandwiched between the two peces of wood and clamped really tight to prevent any movement. The flange was tapped over progressively until it stretched sufficiently to follow the curve of the wood and to be in close contact with it throughout the curve and with a nice sharp fold line. I'm using 1mm steel sheet hammer formed over 12mm ply. Care was needed when welding the piece in place because thin to thick is never easy but all went well with no holes blown through.

The excees flange of the windscreen frame will be reduced when all the reinforcing pieces are in place.




[Edited on 7/10/20 by John Bonnett]


[Edited on 7/10/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 7/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 9/10/20 at 05:09 PM

I'm sure many of you will remember Trev D who built a stunning polished aluminium bodied Locost, Saint Trev to some of us. Some years ago he shared a design for a tool to mark an offset and like all tools perhaps not something you use all the time but when you need it its there and invaluable. It is very simple and easy to make so I thought I'd share it with you. I used it to put a line on the windscreen frame return so that it can be trimmed. One point rests on the glass and the other which has a point at 90 degrees scribes a line. Very effective.

Two very important deliveries arrived today. All the bits needed to fab up a steering column and the brand new pedal box and the bits to go with it.



John Bonnett - 10/10/20 at 04:29 PM

Once again EB was right. Having placed the pedal box in position, the steering wheel and column are too low and interfere the the brake pedal operation. It is a shame that the nice Ford mounting bracket will have to be altered but sadly, that's what's got to happen. But that's in the future.

Meanwhile I've continued infilling the screen frame to the round tube and that, I'm pleased to report, has gone well.


ettore bugatti - 12/10/20 at 01:00 PM

Good to see progress on the windscreen surround filling.

I'm sure you figure the pedalbox and steering column positions out, you got now all the components to play with.


John Bonnett - 12/10/20 at 01:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Good to see progress on the windscreen surround filling.

I'm sure you figure the pedalbox and steering column positions out, you got now all the components to play with.


Thank you EB. With the pedal box in position I can see what needs to be done which is to raise the steering wheel by 40mm and lift the end of the column by 50mm to bring it clear of the brake pedal. To do this I'll have to remove the Ford mounting and fabricate a new one. Not a disaster by any means.

Despite being careful, infilling the screen frame has caused distortion and it has lost some of its bow along the top edge which means the glass is well clear of the bed in the centre and sitting nicely on the corners and all the way down the sides. I've tried jacking up at the centre but it is too firmly welded to move very much so time for a cup of tea and a bit of a think.

[Edited on 12/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 16/10/20 at 05:11 PM

Some good progress to report for once.

Following distortion during welding of the infill of the top horizontal section of the windscreen frame I cut the section out and remade it this time making very sure it didn't move. All done now and the screen is back to sitting nicely on all surfaces. Forewarned I know what to do for the rest of the infilling.

The Ford column mount has now been modified without losing any of its inherent strength to put the steering wheel and the column in the desired position.


John Bonnett - 18/10/20 at 08:34 AM

So we're making some solid progress now and looking at it I can see that to me anyway the proportions look right, the steering wheel to seat looks right and sitting in eye level is middle of the screen. So after a few false starts I'm hopeful that I now have a good basis on which to build.

There's still a bit to do aon the windscreen frame which I hope to complete over the next day or so.

I now have all the bits to make the steering column including the support bearing so I'll be looking at that very soon. Making the floor and transmission tunnel is high on the agenda but before that I might have a dabble into a bit of metal shaping. I'm fancying stating the roof which I know is going to be difficult. Low crown curvature is always the hardest as I found out on the Lightweight. But I do have that experience to draw on so I know how to do it.


John Bonnett - 20/10/20 at 03:49 PM

I've made a bit of a meal over the windscreen frame but it is the first one I've done and I wanted to get the best fit possible. I've got to the stage where I can do no better and that's my yardstick. The glass sits nicely on the flange and this should I hope ensure a watertight seal.


HowardB - 20/10/20 at 07:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
I've made a bit of a meal over the windscreen frame but it is the first one I've done and I wanted to get the best fit possible. I've got to the stage where I can do no better and that's my yardstick. The glass sits nicely on the flange and this should I hope ensure a watertight seal.



that looks brilliant! Better than some modern cars!


John Bonnett - 21/10/20 at 01:59 AM

Thank you Howard. In order to clad the frame in aluminium I may try to use what's left of the Fiesta frame as a former and use that profile which is certainly what I'm intending to do for the front part of the roof. The plan is to wheel some curvature into a section of the roof panel and then anneal the front 20mm or so. I can fix my panel to the Fiesta roof and then tap over the return into the windscreen reveal to give a perfect fit. The return will eventually be bonded and riveted in place. This should get the roof off to a flying start and possibly the A pillars too.

The beauty of bodywork is subjective and totally down to taste of the individual; like or droolover and all points in between. I really enjoy Harry Metcalfe's "Harry's Garage" videos and his latest offering is a review of the Jaguar F type, another very well presented and entertaining piece of work. I love the way the curves of the F type just flow and it looks good from every angle. I particularly like the way the roof follows the slope of the windscreen and then about level with halfway along the door gracefully slopes down in a teardrop with the windows made to match. I'd like to do something along those lines so I'm going to make up a wireform using 6mm steel rod and see how it might translate onto my build.

By close of play today I'm hoping to have the steering column built now that the column is sitting in the right place and we can see where it has to be routed. CBS supply a U/J adapter with the Ford "D" fitting at one end and the 14mm 36 spline at the other which simplifies things. I'm also using one of their pillow block bearings to support the column and a length of spline rod to suit.


HowardB - 21/10/20 at 07:28 AM

they would make amazing before and after pictures!

Looking forward to the updates


ettore bugatti - 21/10/20 at 01:54 PM

Steady progress!

Looks like the steering column wasn't too much of a job to be relocated.

The top view of the F-type contains a lot of information too.


Shame, Jaguar haven't done a Shooting brake version of it though.


John Bonnett - 21/10/20 at 05:37 PM

That's brilliant EB thank you. A really useful view and a great find.

The day has gone well and the steering column is in place and the pedal box bolted in position.

I've used the lower steering joint from the Reliant connected to a new length of splined shaft connecting to the Fiesta column. The column mounting bracket needed a bit of relieving to stop the U/J from fouling as the steering was rotated but nothing too serious and easily sorted. The front of the pedal box sits immediately below the ledge on the Fiesta scuttle so it will be an easy job to drop the panel for the driver's footwell down and sandwich it between the master cylinders and their mounting plate. The pillow block bearing bolts up very nicely to a bracket welded to the 20mm tube which will be welded to the scuttle ledge.

Although the pedal box will be part of the body and lifted off with the body it is also screwed to the chassis so there will be no worries about any possible flexing under panic braking.




[Edited on 21/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 22/10/20 at 10:15 AM

I've just loaded as a canvas the side profile of the F type Jaguar onto Fusion and put a few dimensions in. I was particularly interested in the slope of the rear window and how that might transpose onto my project.


ettore bugatti - 22/10/20 at 12:38 PM

Is it scaled down by 10%?


John Bonnett - 22/10/20 at 02:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Is it scaled down by 10%?




Sorry EB I should have said that I scaled it to have a wheelbase of 2311mm to be the same as my car. The height of the F type on my scaled drawing is given as 1176mm as opposed to 1311 in real life so yes you're right about 10% difference. My project currently stands at 1220mm overall height but with an eight inch ground clearance. This should drop at least 25mm when at ride height so height wise perhaps the proportions would work.

I'd be interested to hear what you think.


ettore bugatti - 22/10/20 at 03:59 PM

Your wheels are smaller (only 30mm difference TBH) in diameter than the scaled down Jag, but I'm not sure whether that actually make a significant difference.

If the A-pillar match up in position and the scuttle height as well, I think it should work. The proportions of the F-type are not that different to the Ferrari FF you used earlier apart from the sloping roofline.

Get the cardboard out and you will know.


John Bonnett - 22/10/20 at 06:21 PM

I'm not sure. The scuttles and wheel arches line up well but the Fiesta screen is higher than the F type and as you said right from the outset EB the screen will be a problem.

I've just bent a piece of 6mm in the rough shape of the roof at the crown with the slope down of 18 degrees to match the Jag. It's difficult to imagine how it might look without a bit more form work.

The seats are just laid in but in a postion where I can barely reach the pedals. So the normal seating postion will be several inches further forward than they are and even in their currenrt position there is adequate head room.

I was hoping (and still am) to use the Fiesta rear window because it is heated and I have it but ideally it should be a bit narrower and taper in towards the bottom rather than out. I could use polycarbonate but I really do want to have a heated screen. On my travels I haven't come across anything that might fill the bill. Ideas anybody?


[Edited on 22/10/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 22/10/20 at 08:39 PM

A Fiat 126 rear screen will be narrow enough, not expensive second hand.


Looks like about 930mm wide at the bottom.

Try and play with the angle of the rear screen a bit in plan view, a bit steeper to accomodate the extra height of the front Fiesta screen might help.
It is a trade-off between overhang and the angle of the belt line.


John Bonnett - 22/10/20 at 08:59 PM

The Fiat rear screen is narrower by about 30mm and quite a bit more at the bottom of the Fiesta one but I think a deeper screen would look better perhaps like one from an MGB GT. They are heated but quite costly. It's a shame I sold my B without taking any measurements.

I can certainly play with the angle of the back to help it blend in with the height of the windscreen so thank you for that tip.


John Bonnett - 23/10/20 at 04:08 PM

I've moved a bit further towards making the driver's side footwell having put in some of the supporting pieces. These include the forward sill extension and a channel piece bolted to the outrigger. A linking tube joins the pedal box to the sill. The floor will sit underneath and be sanwiched between the chassis and the underside of these tubes.



[Edited on 23/10/20 by John Bonnett]


steve m - 23/10/20 at 05:06 PM

The rear screen part really depends on if your going to make an opening tailgate, or just a small boot opening, that would fall under the rear bottom of the screen

The boot option would be my choice, as it could incorporate a much stiffer body also. possibly the fiesta rear screen could be used

steve


John Bonnett - 23/10/20 at 05:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
The rear screen part really depends on if your going to make an opening tailgate, or just a small boot opening, that would fall under the rear bottom of the screen

The boot option would be my choice, as it could incorporate a much stiffer body also. possibly the fiesta rear screen could be used

steve


Steve, I take your point about body stiffness which is toatally valid but I would really like to have an opening tailgate for maximum access to the load area as the way I'm planning things it will not be easy to load from the cabin. So what I'm thinking is to use the same arrangement as the Octavia where the edge of the tailgate is the edge of the glass. This doesn't waste any space with pillars either side and as you suggest the Fiesta screen might be an option.

.


Mr Whippy - 23/10/20 at 10:38 PM

Is that the seat belt location on the pillar? it looks crazy high and far too forward of the seat.


John Bonnett - 24/10/20 at 07:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Is that the seat belt location on the pillar? it looks crazy high and far too forward of the seat.



If it is too high. I guessed wrong when I put it in. As I mentioned, the seats were just laid in at least 4 inches further back than they will be in their normal position.

The photo shows the seat in the driving position and actually the seat belt mounts and the B post look pretty good to me.


[Edited on 24/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 24/10/20 at 03:44 PM

Change of scene today. I'm working on the seat mountings and have finished a half set with just the outer brackets to be added. I'm using M8 threaded inserts onto which I turned a short shank. The inserts were pushed up from underneath against the shoulder and then welded in. In this way thay can never pull out.




[Edited on 24/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 25/10/20 at 05:15 PM

The driver's seat mountings are now done and welded in and the seat in place. I set the mountings at half way and there's loads of adjustment in either direction.

I have also made a start on the driver's side footwell which is slightly complicated by the pedal box and the column passing through at the top.


John Bonnett - 26/10/20 at 06:15 PM

A bit more done on the footwell panel. The position of the pillow block bearing has made things a bit awkward so a forward facing enclosure had to be formed. This was made in two parts, the first being a folded right angle stretched to the curvature suiting the cut-out in the footwell panel and plug welded in position. The closing piece was made using a hammerform and will be plug welded together. Once assembled, I'll put a hole in for the steering column.

A bit of trimming and tapping to close any gaps is obviously still needed.

Although this is a very small panel it keeps throwing up problems the next being that the accelerator pedal hits the panel before it reaches the stop. So that needs addressing before the piece can be finally laid to rest.





[Edited on 26/10/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 26/10/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 27/10/20 at 07:43 PM

Today I addressed the power bulge needed for the accelerator pedal. Starting in the time honoured way of making a cardboard template and then transferring it onto a piece of steel sheet. This was folded and inserted into the aperture and plug welded on the back. Job done.





ettore bugatti - 27/10/20 at 09:55 PM

It has a very WO2 fighter cockpit feel to it, love the look.


John Bonnett - 28/10/20 at 07:44 PM

Not the best of days today principally because I failed to notice that the clutch pedal that came with the pedal box was for a pendulum system not floor mounted and so totally wrong for this application. My first mistake was to cut an aperture in the panel to accommodate the cable adapter that bolts on separately to the outside of the pedal box. Once done and the adapter bolted up it was obviously wrong because it operated the pushrod in the wrong direction. So clearly the adapter needed to be inverted leaving a redundant hole in the panel. Of course even when fitted the other way up the pedal still didn't work and it was then that the penny dropped with the realisation that the cable clevis needed to be above the fulcrum on the pedal and not below it. With the pedal modified ( cable type pedals are available for fifty quid) the pedal now pulls on the cable which is a result of sorts but sad about my panel which I'll try to repair invisibly without distorting it.

I cannot achieve a straight pull because of the constraints of various fixtures and so I may use either a guide similar to those used by some handbrake installations or a pulley.

Plenty to think about and plenty to get on with. Photos when I'm in a better frame of mind.


Mr Whippy - 28/10/20 at 10:29 PM

saying that your making fantastic progress... I can tell already this will be a top notch car


John Bonnett - 29/10/20 at 07:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
saying that your making fantastic progress... I can tell already this will be a top notch car




timely comment and very much appreciated, thank you. Every project has its highs and lows and sometimes it is encouragement like this that is just what's needed. Thank you so much. Today is another day so forward we go!


McLannahan - 29/10/20 at 10:48 AM

This has been a fascinating read, and I take my hat off to you in your engineering skills!

You've made amazing progress, and seem to be taking such care and thought behind each decision.

Looking forward to the next instalment - great work!


John Bonnett - 29/10/20 at 11:08 AM

quote:
Originally posted by McLannahan
This has been a fascinating read, and I take my hat off to you in your engineering skills!

You've made amazing progress, and seem to be taking such care and thought behind each decision.

Looking forward to the next instalment - great work!



That's very kind of you to say that but actually my skills are very limited and much of my progress is down to good friends both on this forum and elsewhere who offer guidance and advice to keep me out of the elephant traps along the way. What I do have is time and having no deadlines I can afford to backtrack if necessary so that I can get everything is as good as I can possibly make it.

This is a classic example of making it up as you go along and much of it will be uncharted territory for me although this is the third scratch build. The windscreen frame was a first and so will the doors and sills, challenges I'm looking forward to.

I've gone into this in the knowledge that some things would need to be altered but first it is necessary to have something to alter and so it is with the basic frame. It has to be there to see how it needs to be changed. But more of that later. I've got yesterday's debacle to rectify as the mission for today.


HowardB - 29/10/20 at 11:16 AM

Fantastic progress and amazing attention to detail. I recall following the GT6 with great interest, what was the other car that you built John?


John Bonnett - 29/10/20 at 01:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
Fantastic progress and amazing attention to detail. I recall following the GT6 with great interest, what was the other car that you built John?



Back in the 90s my son who was still at school at the time decided to build a 7 type sports car which unfortunately pre-dated Ron's book by about a year. Had we had the information from the book we could have built a chassis very much lighter but it worked out okay. We even went up to Oundle school to meet Ron and saw the boys building their Locosts in a factory unit almost like a production line. Our car was based on a MK5 Cortina with a scratch built chassis and eventually had a Jondel N/A Cosworth YB. Chris and I campaigned it in a couple of Curborough and Goodwood sprint series with some success. The car was sold and I believe a bike engine was fitted and as far as I know it still exists although I have no idea where it is.

The second project was the trials car which proved to be hugely reliable and took my wife and I to France more than once and to the Isle of Sky as well as being a competitive Class 8 classic trials car gaining good results in Chris's capable hands.

Both hugely enjoyable projects and nice to know that the trials car is still being used competitively.




[Edited on 29/10/20 by John Bonnett]


jps - 29/10/20 at 02:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett

[Edited on 29/10/20 by John Bonnett]

Nice to see the 'locost' beam deflectors, I fit the same ones when we go abroad!


HowardB - 29/10/20 at 04:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
Fantastic progress and amazing attention to detail. I recall following the GT6 with great interest, what was the other car that you built John?



Back in the 90s my son who was still at school at the time decided to build a 7 type sports car which unfortunately pre-dated Ron's book by about a year. Had we had the information from the book we could have built a chassis very much lighter but it worked out okay. We even went up to Oundle school to meet Ron and saw the boys building their Locosts in a factory unit almost like a production line. Our car was based on a MK5 Cortina with a scratch built chassis and eventually had a Jondel N/A Cosworth YB. Chris and I campaigned it in a couple of Curborough and Goodwood sprint series with some success. The car was sold and I believe a bike engine was fitted and as far as I know it still exists although I have no idea where it is.

The second project was the trials car which proved to be hugely reliable and took my wife and I to France more than once and to the Isle of Sky as well as being a competitive Class 8 classic trials car gaining good results in Chris's capable hands.



[Edited on 29/10/20 by John Bonnett]


More and more impressed John - you have a good set of skills there!


John Bonnett - 29/10/20 at 04:54 PM

Although filling up the redundant hole has taken all my workshop time today the end result has been well worth the time. There was little bit of distortion but not very much. Here's how I did it.

First you need to watch Trev's video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhpPkksmI4c

So much really good stuff on his channel and the inspiration seems to waft over the ether.

Distortion is the enemy because the panel is largely flat. It is important not to weld into sharp corners because this causes a heat build up and consequent buckling. So the first job was to enlarge the cut out with some large radius bends and I also tried to use the swage as a stiffener. For some reason the new swage came out a bit wonky which I don't really understand why. The next job was to cut out the blank and put in the swage. Cut oversize and then litle by little sanded until it was the best possible fit with minimal gaps. After inserting it I clamped it so that it was flush and where it was exactly flush put in a tack. At each point hammer and dolly to make sure all was flush for the next tack and so on. Filling in the gaps was done in many different steps each run being no more than 10mm and the weld immediately cooled with a damp (not wet) rag to absorb the heat.

Not quite the invisible repair that I has hoping for but bearing in mind where the panel will be fitted I don't think it will show up unless you're looking for it.






Mr Whippy - 29/10/20 at 10:06 PM

How are you forming the beads in that panel? Is it using one of those hand cranked machines I see for about 100? I have to also fabricate an engine bulkhead and trans tunnel for the 2b and those would help stiffen up the sheets hugely before welding and allow me to use thinner sheet. Advice much appreciated, thanks.


John Bonnett - 30/10/20 at 07:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
How are you forming the beads in that panel? Is it using one of those hand cranked machines I see for about 100? I have to also fabricate an engine bulkhead and trans tunnel for the 2b and those would help stiffen up the sheets hugely before welding and allow me to use thinner sheet. Advice much appreciated, thanks.



I'm using a bead roller, hand cranked, that I bought quite a few years ago secondhand from a machinery dealer for about 350. I think it's Edwards although there is no label. As you can see, I'm no expert and some practise is needed to get the best results. As with all tools the advice is to try to avoid DIY quality and buy the best you can possibly afford.

You'll find some good information on using bead roller and tooling on Lazze's YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jT7jjC6_MU />
This one from Eastwood looks very good

https://www.frost.co.uk/eastwood-elite-8in-heavy-duty-bead-roller/?awc=18872_1604045478_8f47cc0ae221000a5da88fcc426ee63c

[Edited on 30/10/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 30/10/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 30/10/20 by John Bonnett]


Mr Whippy - 30/10/20 at 10:23 AM

Thanks John that's helpful. I'm going to sell the engine crane to pay for one as its more useful to me. Keep up the good work


John Bonnett - 30/10/20 at 12:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Thanks John that's helpful. I'm going to sell the engine crane to pay for one as its more useful to me. Keep up the good work


You're very welcome and I look forward to seeing your progress on your new project. Well done.

Actually I've always had a good opinion of the Robin Hood particularly the quality of the stainless steel forming which is not easy. Okay it is heavy but there was one that I competed against in the Wadham Kenning Curborough Championship that I couldn't beat. It was a quick car and he was probably the better driver but it did impress me.


John Bonnett - 2/11/20 at 04:46 PM

A bit more done on the driver's footwell today with the basic frame mow fabricated and in place. I made the frame in situ to get the best fit but it was disappointing that the frame wouldn't come out for final welding and fitting the panelling. This slowed things down a tad but we're moving in the right direction. In any case, I need the floor in place before this assembly can be welded to the rest of the body because the floor fits underneath the pedal box and the frame to which it will be bonded. The frame isn't in its final resting place yet. In the second photo the unpainted panel looks a bit convex and it is but not as much as it appears to be. However, what I should have done was to to pre-stretch the panel before putting in the swages.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forum about thickness and grade of aluminium for the floors but I have always used 1.2mm thick 18 gauge NS4 which is an incredibly tough alloy without any problems.



[Edited on 2/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 3/11/20 at 05:58 PM

Whilst I can live with the slight bowing on the panel what I couldn't accept was the out of squareness of the supporting tubes for the next panel so I took the radical measure of removing the frame from the chassis so that I could remove the footwell assembly and make a proper job on the bench rather than working in cramped conditions at floor level. This will make things a whole lot easier in the long run and hopefully a result that I'll be happy with.


[Edited on 3/11/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 3/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 6/11/20 at 04:58 PM

After a couple of days making scrap things looked up today and moved forward. I'll not bore you with the details but it was largely down to my stupidity in not spotting the obvious and twice I made a frame to support the footwell side panel and each time it was awful. Today I realised that the frame is superfluous anyway so that got the day off to a flying start. After cutting the panel to size I put a bit of double curvature into it to pre-stretch it to eliminate the bowing after putting in the swages. It nearly worked and I think the result is presentable. A bit more shape was needed. Before fitting, the door hinge posts need to go in and for these I have a plan. Split two lengths of 50 x 25 2mm wall box section into two channels and fit them around the round tube A post. The plasma cutter came into its own and sliced through the material like a knife through butter.


John Bonnett - 8/11/20 at 04:55 PM

A bit more done on the door hinge posts. The Octavia hinges have two fixings, one going through form the outside and threading into a captive nut and the other accessed from inside the car and threading into tapped holes in the hinge and it was this that gave the problem; insufficient clearance for a 13mm socket against the round tube. So I took a couple of scallops out and filled the hole with sections of 50mm round tube, 2mm wall. That did the trick and that side of the post is ready to tack in.



ettore bugatti - 9/11/20 at 01:22 PM

Looking forward to see how the door hinges and A pillar are going to develop, will be a big step forwards when that is sorted.


John Bonnett - 9/11/20 at 02:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Looking forward to see how the door hinges and A pillar are going to develop, will be a big step forwards when that is sorted.


Good to hear from you EB. I hope to put some photos up later today and would be keen to hear what you think. The hard part will be interfacing the A post with the Fiesta but, we're up for challenges! The final sill will be an inch or so higher than the 50 x25 longitudinal tube but with a step that sits on it. Difficult to explain clearly but I have it in my mind.


Mr Whippy - 9/11/20 at 03:39 PM

So why do you not make the swages actually cross? I'd have thought that would eliminate bowing but is that not the case? asking before I muck up my panels thinking that is how I should do it...

All mine are going to be done in 1.5mm aluminium so hoping it will be more forgiving than the steel your using. I was also going to swage 1 inch round the borders of of each panel before riveting them on.

[Edited on 9/11/20 by Mr Whippy]


John Bonnett - 9/11/20 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
So why do you not make the swages actually cross? I'd have thought that would eliminate bowing but is that not the case? asking before I muck up my panels thinking that is how I should do it...

All mine are going to be done in 1.5mm aluminium so hoping it will be more forgiving than the steel your using. I was also going to swage 1 inch round the borders of of each panel before riveting them on.

[Edited on 9/11/20 by Mr Whippy]


You will always get a bow in the panel after putting in the swage lines because of the stretching. So the trick is to put a bow in the panel in the opposite direction and the two should cancel each other out. If you don't have an English wheel, you can do the same job with a slapper or flipper similar to the tool used for lead forming. Frosts sell them I think.


Mr Whippy - 9/11/20 at 04:48 PM

Ok thanks that's good advice. I need to practice a bit on some scrap.


John Bonnett - 9/11/20 at 04:56 PM

The door hinge post is now in position with the hinges trial fitted. Plenty of access added via the inner upright for the hinge fixing and perhaps cables although there isn't much room. In any case the A post will be extended inwards with a fabricated section which definitely will have room for the loom.

I've formed the same profile as the Fiesta piece and that does look as if it will work quite nicely. Access panels will need to be added.


John Bonnett - 10/11/20 at 01:28 PM

After final work on the A post section, it is now ready to be welded in.




Mr Whippy - 10/11/20 at 03:13 PM

how about getting the shell dipped once you've finished it so it's all coated and protected inside and out?

linky


John Bonnett - 10/11/20 at 06:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
how about getting the shell dipped once you've finished it so it's all coated and protected inside and out?

linky



That's a very good thought which I will bear in mind. Thank you.


starterman - 10/11/20 at 07:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
After final work on the A post section, it is now ready to be welded in.



How are you going to install your curtain pole John?


John Bonnett - 10/11/20 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by starterman
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
After final work on the A post section, it is now ready to be welded in.



How are you going to install your curtain pole John?



Ha Ha! The bit I cut off is now a towel rail in our downstairs loo!


John Bonnett - 11/11/20 at 04:42 PM

As with most things I do they take twice as long as expected and today was no exception. But all went well (with no scrap made) and the driver's side footwell section is done complete with the door hinges. I'm not sure how I'm going to run cables to the door because of space restricted by the round tube inside the hinge posts. The law of unforeseen consequences is ever present. But we'll address that problem later.





John Bonnett - 12/11/20 at 06:41 PM

By way of a change I've started the routing of the clutch cable which because I cannot achieve a straight pull needs a guide. I found a very nice pulley complete with a proper ball race for under a tenner delivered. The bore of the bearing is 12mm so plenty strong enough for the job. The pulley needs to be set an angle of 20 degrees to match the cable entry so today has been spent on making the mounting. This needs to be welded in and the outer cable fixing fabricated.




John Bonnett - 13/11/20 at 02:15 PM

I've fabbed up the clutch outer cable bracket and tacked it into place. I'm not in any hurry to finally weld it until I'm happy that the clutch works properly and that the cable is not being strained. This gives me the option of altering it if necessary without too much trouble.


John Bonnett - 13/11/20 at 06:25 PM

I've had an idea for a transmission tunnel which develops into a console to house the audio unit so I thought I'd give it a go. Rather than form a domed profile I decided on a flat centre with radiused edges. This allows the possibility of mounting the handbrake on a flat surface and including a cubby hole for glasses etc.

This is the largest thing I have ever folded and definitely a case of entering uncharted waters. Only the initial channel could be folded in the folder and the rest was down to me and it all got a bit physical! But I'm getting there but with work still needed to tighten up the curve around the one inch diameter pipe.






John Bonnett - 14/11/20 at 06:23 PM

Just a bit of consolidation today fettling the transmission tunnel so that the curved sections follow the curvature of the tubes a little more closely. I have also started what would be called formers in an aircraft fuselage that will support the tunnel and bridge the propshaft as part of the floor structure. I'm trying to arrange for the tunnel to be removable for easy access to the propshaft. The handbrake complicates things but I'm hoping to get round that. The formers will be drilled with the possibility of running fuel and brake lines and battery cable through the tunnel. This may or may not be feasible but at least provision will have been made.


steve m - 14/11/20 at 07:18 PM

Thats some awsome work there, but you may need to fits some dividers in the track or your phone and wallet will disappear !!
Well. untill you brake and end up in the footwell

steve


John Bonnett - 14/11/20 at 07:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Thats some awsome work there, but you may need to fits some dividers in the track or your phone and wallet will disappear !!
Well. untill you brake and end up in the footwell

steve



Ha ha!

No what I'm planning is to make a cubby hole and weld it into the flat section probably behind the handbrake. This would be quite simple to do by folding up a box, welding the corners and cutting an aperture in the flat surface to suit and then just welding the box in with the top edges flush.


John Bonnett - 15/11/20 at 04:59 PM

Sometimes and if I'm honest in my case more often than I would like, the job falls woefully short of the vision in my head of what I've visualised and today was one of those days. In fact, so was yesterday. The job sounds simple enough. Make eight formers all the same out of 16 gauge mild steel sheet. A job for the plasma cutter I thought and it probably was but through lack of experience using it I made a complete horlicks of it and the first batch consigned to the scrap bin. The second lot are not much better but I'm hoping they can be salvaged because I have no more material to embark on the MK3.

Hopefully a more productive day tomorrow.

[Edited on 15/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 16/11/20 at 04:34 PM

Determination seems to have one the day and after a couple of disappointing days we are moving forward with the formers, the fabrication part of the job going well. Fortunately I'm not having to cost my time and can take as long over the job as I need to get it right. There is a lot of clamping and welding and many areas when it can all get out of shape so I've been working slowly (as usual you are probably saying) and taking my time to avoid generating more scrap. A friend of mine said there is no such thing as scrap just material waiting for a smaller job to come along.

Any, one is finished and the second on its way with two more to follow.

The 20mm holes are there to allow the brake and fuel lines and the battery cable to pass through.






[Edited on 16/11/20 by John Bonnett]


jps - 16/11/20 at 04:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John BonnettI've been working slowly (as usual you are probably saying) and taking my time

It is rather galling John....

....that your slow is a hell of a lot faster than most peoples flat out, and frankly light speed compared to the progress I can manage!

The photos you use to illustrate what you've been doing are excellent, it's fascinating to see this progress and a really interesting insight into what you're doing.


John Bonnett - 16/11/20 at 05:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
quote:
Originally posted by John BonnettI've been working slowly (as usual you are probably saying) and taking my time

It is rather galling John....

....that your slow is a hell of a lot faster than most peoples flat out, and frankly light speed compared to the progress I can manage!

The photos you use to illustrate what you've been doing are excellent, it's fascinating to see this progress and a really interesting insight into what you're doing.


That's really kind of you, thank you and thank you too for your interest in the project. I'm actually very lucky in being able to play every day in the workshop and spend as many hours as I want to unlike many folk on here who have family commitments and a job to contend with before they can start thinking about spending time on the hobby. These are the people I take my hat of to being able to summon the energy to get out in the garage in the evening after a day's work or getting the children to bed. I certainly wouldn't have the energy to do that.

I love what I'm doing and I'm trying to include as much detail as possible in the photos so that the techniques I'm using might help anyone embarking on the same road.

[Edited on 16/11/20 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 16/11/20 at 06:05 PM

Interesting point on scrap and building a one-off, it never going to be as effective as building a well estabilshed product.


John Bonnett - 17/11/20 at 06:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
The rear screen part really depends on if your going to make an opening tailgate, or just a small boot opening, that would fall under the rear bottom of the screen

The boot option would be my choice, as it could incorporate a much stiffer body also. possibly the fiesta rear screen could be used

steve



Steve, I keep thinking about what you said and it really is a very good point, so much so that I have decided to ditch the tailgate idea and just have an opening boot. I am concerned about body stiffness and a simple boot lid will allow more bracing, will be simpler to make and being a whole lot lighter than a tailgate, the fixings can be lighter too. I shall certainly do my best to use the Fiesta rear screen.

Another decent day which has seen three out of the four formers fabricated. Hopefully by close of play tomorrow I'll have some more photos to put up.


starterman - 17/11/20 at 07:33 PM

Roll on the end of lockdown when I can finally get to see things in the flesh, so to speak.


John Bonnett - 17/11/20 at 07:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by starterman
Roll on the end of lockdown when I can finally get to see things in the flesh, so to speak.


Bring it on


steve m - 17/11/20 at 10:27 PM

Steve, I keep thinking about what you said and it really is a very good point, so much so that I have decided to ditch the tailgate idea and just have an opening boot. I am concerned about body stiffness and a simple boot lid will allow more bracing, will be simpler to make and being a whole lot lighter than a tailgate, the fixings can be lighter too. I shall certainly do my best to use the Fiesta rear screen.

Another decent day which has seen three out of the four formers fabricated. Hopefully by close of play tomorrow I'll have some more photos to put up.

John, your the one doing al the hard work, and if one of my suggestions work , then that is cool, but its your car, and you do what ever you want !!
i will not question your ability nor desire, as it far out ways mine !! ]


John Bonnett - 18/11/20 at 07:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Steve, I keep thinking about what you said and it really is a very good point, so much so that I have decided to ditch the tailgate idea and just have an opening boot. I am concerned about body stiffness and a simple boot lid will allow more bracing, will be simpler to make and being a whole lot lighter than a tailgate, the fixings can be lighter too. I shall certainly do my best to use the Fiesta rear screen.

Another decent day which has seen three out of the four formers fabricated. Hopefully by close of play tomorrow I'll have some more photos to put up.

John, your the one doing al the hard work, and if one of my suggestions work , then that is cool, but its your car, and you do what ever you want !!
i will not question your ability nor desire, as it far out ways mine !! ]



Steve it is quite humbling that you and many others are taking an interest in what I'm trying to achieve and making very helpful and well thought out comments which I always appreciate. I only have ideas all in my head and nothing drawn up of how it is going to be but they may not be the best solutions so it is always good to receive fresh input. When you are as close to the job as I am, sometimes it's difficult to see the wood for the trees and it is easy to miss the obvious. The tailgate option was my favourite because of ease of access but I had overlooked the structural work needed to add stiffness to the shell and not given any thought to the befits of a straightforward boot lid and the advantages that offers so I'm grateful to you for your suggestion.

I've said this many times before that no matter what the subject or discipline there are experts and specialists here on this forum always ready to offer advice and guidance which is what makes it so special. I think it was David Jenkins who some years ago said that he regards the forum as meeting friends in a pub and having a chat and that's spot on; something that Facebook will never achieve. I hope we never lose the site.

[Edited on 18/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 18/11/20 at 04:20 PM

After three days I've finally completed the formers that will span the propshaft and form part of the body structure. The aluminium transmission tunnel will fit over the top of them and be secured to them using M6 rivnuts. I always try to design in accessibility so it will be useful if it can be removed when necessary. The handbrake complicates things but I hope I've found a way round that.

I'll attach a photo of a useful little tool that I made some time back to bend 6mm steel and I used it to form a bend on the sheet. Not my idea but copied from Wray Shellin.






John Bonnett - 20/11/20 at 05:37 PM

Work continued on the transmission tunnel and the frame onto which the floor will be fixed. As always distortion during welding was the enemy but the assembly has ended up pretty true and sits well on the chassis. My concern has always been that once the floor frame has been welded into the car (for want of a better word) and the body removed to fit the floor which is in effect sandwiched between chassis and floor frame, the body frame could lozenge slightly and once the floor has been riveted and bonded in place it probably wouldn't go back on its mounts. So I came up with a cunning plan. I've welded in tubes parallel to the two by one sill foundations leaving a 12mm gap. This will allow the assembly to be fitted with the floor first before welding into the car without risk of melting the aluminium. I may not even need to fill the gap depending on how the sill is constructed.



[Edited on 20/11/20 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 20/11/20 by John Bonnett]


[Edited on 20/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 22/11/20 at 04:29 PM

I'm still working on the floor frame and battling distortion every step of the way but we're getting there. There are two sides to building from scratch as against putting together a kit. The downside is that every little fixture, bracket and fitting has to be made, all of which devours time but the upside is that depending on the care taken every part fits perfectly and needs no fettling. Today I've added a rear section to the frame and made some additional mounting points. I have also welded in one inch by one inch angle that the aluminium tunnel will be fixed to. I mounted the seat just to satisfy myself that everything still fitted.





[Edited on 22/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 23/11/20 at 09:38 AM

Progress on a daily basis is slow and not a lot to show with perhaps just the addition of a few brackets or tubes so unless anyone has any objections I'll post updates from now on, on a weekly rather than a daily basis on a Sunday evening.


Mr Whippy - 23/11/20 at 12:39 PM

Yeah that's cool. What I find really helpful is showing how these parts are made. Had to laugh at the transmission tunnel. It came out so well with such a simple jig, amazing.

[Edited on 23/11/20 by Mr Whippy]


John Bonnett - 23/11/20 at 02:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Yeah that's cool. What I find really helpful is showing how these parts are made. Had to laugh at the transmission tunnel. It came out so well with such a simple jig, amazing.

[Edited on 23/11/20 by Mr Whippy]


The next bit is going to be rather more challenging. I need to tip a flange on one end to fix it to the firewall. Fortunately the tunnel is overlong so if it does all go horribly wrong I won't have lost the panel.


ettore bugatti - 23/11/20 at 03:29 PM

Always looking out for your updates, doesn't matter if they are regulary or not.

Are the seat belts going on this frame as well?


John Bonnett - 23/11/20 at 06:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Always looking out for your updates, doesn't matter if they are regularly or not.

Are the seat belts going on this frame as well?


Thank you EB. Yes They are in you should be able to see them in one of the photos. 7/16" UNF threaded inserts welded into the triangular piece that itself is welded up against the rear former. It's well braced and as strong as I can possibly make it.

While we're talking I will tell you what I've been doing today which has been largely experimental. Well, playing really. I need to interface the aluminium transmission tunnel to the rear firewall which, because of the profile, is not straightforward. Why do I make things so difficult for myself? I decided to attempt to tip a flange and then weld on more material sufficient to allow space for the fixings which will probably be M5 button heads.

I seriously doubted whether the right angle bend would be sufficiently compliant to turn through 90 degrees but I decided to try it anyway. The aluminium needed to be annealed that was very clear but at the moment I don't have any oxygen and acetylene which is what I normally use to anneal aluminium. First put down a layer of black from the acetylene and then heat the aluminium until the black has disappeared. But I picked up on a recent Ron Covell video that ink from a marker pen will burn off at the annealing temperature of aluminium so using my Mapp gas torch I gave it a try and blow me, it works! I annealed just the area that needed to be worked. Thank you Ron. I I then cut two pieces of plywood to the matching profile so that the aluminium could be sandwiched and clamped up tightly. I then began to tap the flange over. It was a struggle but with several intermediate annealings it played ball much to my amazement. An awful lot of material needed to be lost in the right angles but I was able to trap the tucks and shrink them together with a hammer. It is incredible and I would not have believed it had I not just done it for myself. So a very good start. To be continued.






[Edited on 23/11/20 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 29/11/20 at 04:49 PM

I see that it is nearly a week since the last update and although I've put the hours in there's not a huge amount to show for it but having said that, I'm happy with where we are.

So where were we? About to attach more material to the flange I'd tipped on the rear end of the transmission tunnel. Whilst I love stainless steel TIG welding and always look forward to it, aluminium is a different matter and I start off being tense which is a disadvantage straight away because if you are not comfortable and relaxed you cannot produce decent welds. I'm talking TIG here. Gas welding aluminium is a different matter and something I don't have too much trouble with once I've got into the swing of it. In view of the cost of the gas I am considering not using oxy/acetylene this time and TIG welding the whole thing and if I do that I would hope that by the end I would end up more relaxed about it and very much more proficient. But, back to the job. The welding actually went okay, not pretty but good penetration and the flange won't drop off.

The next job was to fold the passenger side A post continuation of the Fiesta section which wasn't a job I was looking forward to knowing that (for me) the second one never goes as well as the first and unfortunately this was no different. I hadn't realized quite how much I'd fluked the first one which I knocked off in a couple of hours. This one took two days with the whole of the first day's effort consigned to the bin as I left the workshop for the night. It is a complex shape and each fold has to start in exactly the right place otherwise the rest of it is wrong. But I got there in the end and once welded in place is equally as good as its partner on the other side.

I made some brackets to weld to the floor frame and these will be for supplementary fixings and secured by M6 rivnuts rather than the M8 threaded and welded inserts for the main ones. The rivnuts have now been fitted and the frame removed for a coat of paint.







John Bonnett - 6/12/20 at 04:47 PM

It's been a good week in the workshop with some encouraging progress. Now this may seem odd to you given how early I am into the project that the next thing I decided to undertake was inserting a little box into the transmission tunnel just forward of the handbrake. A sort of cubby hole for sweets or car park change etc. Anyway for whatever reason I decided to do it and it actually came out nicely. Following that it was time to attack the floor. I'm using 1.2mm 18 gauge aluminium and bonding and riveting it to the frame that is currently detachable from the rest of the body frame. It is only a partial floor to allow space for welding without damaging the aluminium or melting the adhesive. I've used 4mm countersunk rivets set with an air tool which has proved invaluable. In order to locate the seat fixings I sharpened the ends of lengths of M8 studding and threaded them into the holes. The floor assembly was put in place and the studs located by using a rare earth magnet. Tapping with a soft faced mallet gave nice centre pots. It was then easy to drill through and good to know that the holes were in the right places.

The final photos show where we are currently.

















[Edited on 6/12/20 by John Bonnett]


Mr Whippy - 6/12/20 at 11:13 PM

what, no cupholder??


John Bonnett - 7/12/20 at 06:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
what, no cupholder??


Ha ha! Definitely no cup holders.


HowardB - 7/12/20 at 09:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
what, no cupholder??


Ha ha! Definitely no cup holders.


will it have some innovative features?


John Bonnett - 7/12/20 at 12:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
what, no cupholder??


Ha ha! Definitely no cup holders.


will it have some innovative features?


I'm not sure about innovative but I'm hoping to include modern day comforts like heated screens, aircon apple play etc and produce a car that will be comfortable for serious journeys rather than something like the G15 which was enormous fun hooning for half an hour followed by a lie down in a darkened room to clear the zinging ears.

I have in my head a clear idea of what I want to achieve but I haven't lost sight of the fact that this is an enormous project with a lot of it being new territory for me. It's certainly the most ambitious undertaking that I have ever embarked upon and this is probably not the best stage of my life to start on the journey. But having said all that, I'm loving every minute of it by viewing each task as an end in itself and trying to avoid looking at the bigger picture which would be too daunting and discouraging.

So far it has been a fascinating journey and the one thing I have learned is that it is necessary to have a starting point A on which to build. Further down the line it might become apparent that A is wrong and need changing but you have to have something that can either be retained or altered. Such is the case with the main body frame. At present I'm thinking about removing all the tubes from the windscreen rearwards and the B posts. The new B posts will be 50mm square box section rather than round tube, terminating at waist height and the pillar will be in 20mm square box section angled backwards. The new horizontals from the windscreen back will be curved and in 20mm diameter round tube. At the moment these are just ideas but seem like the way forward.


HowardB - 7/12/20 at 01:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
what, no cupholder??


Ha ha! Definitely no cup holders.


will it have some innovative features?


I'm not sure about innovative but I'm hoping to include modern day comforts like heated screens, aircon apple play etc and produce a car that will be comfortable for serious journeys rather than something like the G15 which was enormous fun hooning for half an hour followed by a lie down in a darkened room to clear the zinging ears.

I have in my head a clear idea of what I want to achieve but I haven't lost sight of the fact that this is an enormous project with a lot of it being new territory for me. It's certainly the most ambitious undertaking that I have ever embarked upon and this is probably not the best stage of my life to start on the journey. But having said all that, I'm loving every minute of it by viewing each task as an end in itself and trying to avoid looking at the bigger picture which would be too daunting and discouraging.

So far it has been a fascinating journey and the one thing I have learned is that it is necessary to have a starting point A on which to build. Further down the line it might become apparent that A is wrong and need changing but you have to have something that can either be retained or altered. Such is the case with the main body frame. At present I'm thinking about removing all the tubes from the windscreen rearwards and the B posts. The new B posts will be 50mm square box section rather than round tube, terminating at waist height and the pillar will be in 20mm square box section angled backwards. The new horizontals from the windscreen back will be curved and in 20mm diameter round tube. At the moment these are just ideas but seem like the way forward.


That is a great philospophy and aspirational. I agree it reminds me of the joke about getting to London - where the answer is - it is that way, but I wouldn't be starting from here. We all have to start somewhere and your journey will have more twists and turns and better views of the sunlit upland than most - including mine. More power to your elbow and your english wheel

I look forward to each and every lesson that you share with us

thank you


John Bonnett - 7/12/20 at 01:51 PM

That is a great philospophy and aspirational. I agree it reminds me of the joke about getting to London - where the answer is - it is that way, but I wouldn't be starting from here. We all have to start somewhere and your journey will have more twists and turns and better views of the sunlit upland than most - including mine. More power to your elbow and your english wheel

I look forward to each and every lesson that you share with us

thank you





Howard thank you. It is the support and encouragement from you and everyone who contributes to this thread that keep me motivated so please do keep the replies and comments coming.


Russell - 7/12/20 at 05:19 PM

Or to use another cliche, it's better to make a bad decision than no decision. At least a bad decision can put you in a place to see what needs doing to make it right. No decision gets you... well... nowhere!

I love what you're doing John, it's a hugely enjoyable read and I can't wait to see how this turns out. I know it will be ace!


John Bonnett - 7/12/20 at 06:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Russell
Or to use another cliche, it's better to make a bad decision than no decision. At least a bad decision can put you in a place to see what needs doing to make it right. No decision gets you... well... nowhere!

I love what you're doing John, it's a hugely enjoyable read and I can't wait to see how this turns out. I know it will be ace!



You're a gent Russell and you're spot on with your analogy.


starterman - 7/12/20 at 07:04 PM

If only you webbed fingered Devonians would behave and get yourself into Tier One then we could finally catch up


John Bonnett - 13/12/20 at 04:41 PM

With the partial floor finished and ready to weld in, my thoughts turned to body shape and the wire frame buck and that's where most of the time this week has been expended. I have also remodelled the tubular body frame which I think I mentioned was on my mind to do. The longitudinal tubes have been cut and shut to give an 18 degree slope for the continuation tube and the top of the B post angled backwards.

At present the rear of the wire frame extends 500mm rearward of the rear of the rear tyre, slightly less than a wheel diameter. This might be slightly too much because I remember EB suggested half a wheel diameter as an ideal overhang. Half a wheel overhang might suit the front better as well.

Here are a few photos to bring you up to date.




ettore bugatti - 14/12/20 at 10:20 AM

That is a big fuel tank!

I always like the bigger overview pictures, I hope to see more of how the wireframe evolves.

A youtube watch tip is Avalon King Zero Supercar build by Casey Putsch, you probably already seen it if youtube got their algorithms right:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt3Qhjl4f69JgMNDes8dFqiFu7tHRUzvw


John Bonnett - 14/12/20 at 02:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
That is a big fuel tank!

I always like the bigger overview pictures, I hope to see more of how the wireframe evolves.

A youtube watch tip is Avalon King Zero Supercar build by Casey Putsch, you probably already seen it if youtube got their algorithms right:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt3Qhjl4f69JgMNDes8dFqiFu7tHRUzvw



Thank you for the link. I hadn't seen the series so a good find.

The tank which is from a Focus is big and I may not be able to use it. The one from the Fiesta is still in the car so probably the the thing to do is to remove it and see if that would fit in any better, it certainly has a smaller capacity. I really don't want the tank where I'd placed it. I'd much prefer it to be below the boot floor rearward of the axle.


John Bonnett - 20/12/20 at 04:12 PM

Not a great deal to show for a week's work but nevertheless progress has been made.

I have felt for some time that the Fiesta rear window would suit my car so the plan was to remove the glass and then the rear window aperture from the donor car. What a great source of parts this is proving to be and an excellent purchase.

Unlike the front screen which is bonded in the rear uses a rubber seal which made removing the glass an easy task. Once out the plasma cutter came into its own in cutting out the aperture. This is double skinned coming together and spot welded to form the flange over which the rubber seal fits. Once relieved of its supporting structure the aperture was very wobbly and clearly would need stabilising which could be quite tricky. Care is needed to ensure that the glass sits perfectly after the bracing has been welded in.

But before all that the aperture was laid in place and first impressions were that it will indeed fit in nicely.

At this stage it might be useful to introduce the bending beam that is great for bending thin wall tube without buckling or any flattening on the bends. My first one of these that I have had for thirty years had been seriously attacked by wood worm and sadly snapped when put into use. A new piece of 4 x 2 air dried oak was purchased and at the first attempt of bending 1" diameter tube it promptly split downwards. Very disappointing considering how much work the previous one had done without complaint. The problem was solved by fabricating a very tight fitting collar that was tapped into place over the end of the beam.

I'm currently bending 5/8" diameter tubing to fit between the two skins of the window aperture and once in place will be welded in.

I'm sure many of you will remember my friend and mentor TrevD who used to be on this forum. He sent me a couple of photos of a DB5 Zagato without the panels. Trev told me that the tubes used on the frame are only 1/2" diameter which makes my frame look like a roll cage. Time to think how I continue with it!








John Bonnett - 24/12/20 at 03:04 PM

At some point very soon I shall have to make the inner rear wings or wheel boxes for my car and this involves either substantial shrinking or a lot of wheeling to achieve the necessary curvature. To avoid ending up with a paper thin panel which it would be if I just wheeled it I'm going to attempt the technique of tuck shrinking which is carried out on a hardwood tree stump with a bowl hollowed out on its top face. I've seen this ably demonstrated many times by the likes of Wray Shelin but although I did prepare a stump some years ago for the purpose I have never actually had a go at it. So, time for a little play using a piece of scrap steel sheet.

I'm sure many of you have seen it done but for those who haven't, the idea is to place about 50mm of the sheet on the flat portion of the wood and using a heavy hammer, place blows on a line just over the edge of the bowl. This stretches the metal in the area of the hammer blows which causes tucks to appear on the adjacent material that is placed on the flat. The next bit is the tricky bit which involves trapping the tuck so that it has nowhere to go with hammer blows at the apex and at the sides which accentuates the triangle. Once this is done the tucks can be hammered down and the material has no option but to shrink inside itself. The hammer marks are then smoothed out on the wheeling machine.

The experiment went well but steel is hard work. The idea is to make only half the curve on this part and then make the continuation piece welding it on the curve.

So, that probably wraps things up for a few days but in the meantime I would just like to thank everyone who throughout the year has taken the time to read my thread and for the really helpful and constructive comments that have been made. A very happy Christmas to you all.

John





HowardB - 24/12/20 at 04:57 PM

wow - as ever this is an incredible thread and highly educational.

thank you and happy Christmas


John Bonnett - 24/12/20 at 06:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
wow - as ever this is an incredible thread and highly educational.

thank you and happy Christmas


That's very kind of you Howard, thank you and of course the same to you.

As far as educational is concerned I'm not sure about that other than to say that I am probably the one being educated and learning as I go along. I'm very much a novice at metal shaping and apart from guidance from my mentor TrevD I'm just copying what I've seen demonstrated on YouTube. I think what it does show is that making a nice panel is well within the capabilities of anyone who wants to have a go at it without the need to buy specialist equipment.


steve m - 24/12/20 at 07:27 PM

" I am probably the one being educated and learning as I go along. I'm very much a novice at metal shaping"

Says the man that has already made an Aluminium body for a GT6, that looks frigging excellent ????

I think John is underestimating his skill facto a bit

steve


John Bonnett - 1/1/21 at 10:41 AM

Not Sunday evening I realise but time for a little update.
I mentioned previously that I have had a little play with tuck shrinking so I knew the path ahead was going to get very physical. And it did!

The plan was to make the arch in two parts with a welded join on the curve to avoid distortion when welding. Following the curve I marked a line 50mm in which would be the path of the hammer blows. I'd prepared a stump quite a few years ago but never used it. Having it ready saved quite a bit of time. The idea is to place the area between the line and the and the outside edge on the flat part of the stump and hammer over the void of the hollowed out section. This has the effect of stretching the material where the hammer has struck and causing a tuck to appear on the adjacent flat area.Even using the heaviest hammer I could lay my hands on it was damned hard work and not easy to raise the tucks. But we got there in the end and the two pieces, one for each side were done. I had to make a simple buck and a bit of wheeling and further shrinking produced a reasonable fit on the buck. The next piece was flat and for different reasons proved equally difficult. I put a 10 degree fold 15mm wide along the length and using the hand shrinker began to pull it into a curved section. I'm not sure if this was the best way but it was the only way I could think of doing it. I also wheeled in some shape which smoothed the folded crease and helped with the bending procedure. With the best fit possible of the two parts on the buck they were marked and trimmed so that they butted up together. They were then TIG welded. I was hoping for a no filler (fusion) weld but a less than perfect no gap between the panels and limited TIG welding skill with 1mm steel prevented it. But all in all it went well with good penetration and not too much to sand and planish. There was also minimal distortion which was a relief. The final photo shows the assembly with more finishing needed but pretty nearly there.

The horizontal section stops short of the tyre and I intend to bridge the gap to within half an inch of the outer wing with flat wing liner material. The gapp will be covered by a push on rubber section.







John Bonnett - 2/1/21 at 05:37 PM

I've now started the arch for the other side with the vertical piece now ready and fitting the buck very nicely. The photo shows an area in the middle of the panel that has been heated. In error I had wheeled too much shape into this area so I copied a technique for heat shrinking that I'd seen Wray Shelin using. It is just a question of heating the area up and tapping it down with a flipper and it worked very well. I just thought I'd share that with you in case it might be of help.


John Bonnett - 3/1/21 at 05:17 PM

I've spent a while planishing the first arch and for a first attempt I don't think it is too shabby. The shape is pretty even with no obvious bumps or lows. Evidence of the weld has all but disappeared so I'll probably stop there before I damage the panel. Rather than tipping a flange on the flat edge which I had planned to do, I'll joddle a step to accommodate the wing liner material which will probably be rivetted to it.

The second piece for the second arch is under way but will need several hours more work before it is ready to be welded together.


Deckman001 - 3/1/21 at 08:23 PM

Hi John,

Looking good as usual, keep it up as your build always cheers people up seeing how good your doing it

Jason


John Bonnett - 3/1/21 at 09:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Deckman001
Hi John,

Looking good as usual, keep it up as your build always cheers people up seeing how good your doing it

Jason



Thank you Jason and if that's true I'm really pleased. What I'm actually trying to do, apart from building a car for which I have no plans, is to show that anyone can, with no formal training and the minimum of specialist tools, do amazing things with a flat sheet of metal if they really want to. There is something very creative in forming a nice double curvature panel and I hope that in my photos and a bit of blurb to go with them they convey the pleasure and enjoyment that I have for the hobby and if this inspires others to have a go themselves I would be delighted.


John Bonnett - 6/1/21 at 04:21 PM

The two inner arches are finished now with the exception of a few extraneous holes to fill and I have to say I'm really pleased with the result. Although harder to work than 1050 aluminium, steel is far more forgiving and generally goes where you want it to without splitting when stretching. And welding is easy too. I've just got to work out how to mount them.


HowardB - 6/1/21 at 04:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
The two inner arches are finished now with the exception of a few extraneous holes to fill and I have to say I'm really pleased with the result. Although harder to work than 1050 aluminium, steel is far more forgiving and generally goes where you want it to without splitting when stretching. And welding is easy too. I've just got to work out how to mount them.



That is so impressive - you must have incredible patience and skill.

I look forward to the updates each day


John Bonnett - 6/1/21 at 06:45 PM




That is so impressive - you must have incredible patience and skill.

I look forward to the updates each day




I once said the same thing to a model engineer friend of mine Howard and I'll never forget his reply. He said that if you enjoy what you're doing you don't need patience and I think that was so true. Today I have found a bit trying but that was just because of the cold rather than any lack of enthusiasm.


jps - 7/1/21 at 09:10 AM

Fascinating to see, John - you are highly skilled no matter what you say!

As you mentioned, the frame you are putting in looks more like a rollcage than a simple frame and I assume the original Kitten GRP body wasn't srtuctural - and the chassis did all the hard work in that respect. Will the inner arches (and other parts of your body) be structural as I assume they are in a monocoque/unibody car?


John Bonnett - 7/1/21 at 09:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
Fascinating to see, John - you are highly skilled no matter what you say!

As you mentioned, the frame you are putting in looks more like a rollcage than a simple frame and I assume the original Kitten GRP body wasn't srtuctural - and the chassis did all the hard work in that respect. Will the inner arches (and other parts of your body) be structural as I assume they are in a monocoque/unibody car?


My previous project was restoring a Ginetta G15 and even the die hard enthusiast of the marque referred to the chassis as a farm gate. By comparison, the Kitten chassis is beautifully designed and very stiff needing no additional help from the body. So in answer to your question no, none of the bodywork is structural. I beefed up the windscreen frame and the B posts mainly to give some protection in the event of a crash. I could have made the inner wings in aluminium but just felt that steel would be more durable in that situation.

[Edited on 7/1/21 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 13/1/21 at 06:25 PM

Unfortunately I had to extend the inner wings downwards front and rear which could have been avoided with more careful planning and this added considerable time to the job of finishing them. But all done now and one is mounted in position. The gap between the steel and the outer wing will be filled with wing liner material which I now have in stock. It will be riveted in place and supported midway by an L section formed to match the required curvature.



[Edited on 13/1/21 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 13/1/21 at 07:15 PM

Looks nice!

Must be good practice for panel beating forming skills.

How is the wire frame developing?


John Bonnett - 13/1/21 at 07:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Looks nice!

Must be good practice for panel beating forming skills.

How is the wire frame developing?


The only bit of the wire frame I've done so far is the wheel arch and I'm hoping to incorporate this into wired edges of the aluminum wings. The wire also continues around the back joining the two bits of the wire frame together. The only parts that probably will not need altering are the wheel arch sections of the wire frame. The rest will need re-forming. Before progressing further I need to establish where the main frame rails are going to be and then the buck can be made and tacked to them. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation but that's the way I'm choosing to tackle it. I'm under no delusions how difficult it is going to be forming the buck and that will be a challenge in itself.

I certainly was nice to do a bit of metal shaping and working with steel proved a pleasant change from aluminium. The planishing hammer that some regard as just a toy made light work of the job and to my mind is worth every penny I paid for it. It even formed the domed tops to the shock absorber towers out of 2mm mild steel. A great bit of kit for not too much money.



ettore bugatti - 13/1/21 at 09:06 PM

I like the concept/idea of just using hammers to form a body.
Apparently, the Italians only used hammers for their coachwork in the fifties/sixties.

Oh, and the Japanese
https://youtu.be/FZNFsbDDOPs


John Bonnett - 13/1/21 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I like the concept/idea of just using hammers to form a body.
Apparently, the Italians only used hammers for their coachwork in the fifties/sixties.

Oh, and the Japanese
https://youtu.be/FZNFsbDDOPs



Quite extraordinary, thank you for sharing the video. Extraordinary because there is no mechanisation used in the panel forming and also because it is one man and a hammer against some very thick aluminium. It is almost like a step back in time where one man with a horse drawn single furrow plough take on a hundred acre field.

You are quite right about the Italians only using hammers for panel making. Trev can confirm this on the numerous Ferraris and Alfas that he works on where evidence of the hammers marks are still there to be seen once the paint is stripped off. Over here hammers have been frowned upon because of the marks they leave and I think I'm right in saying that Aston Martin panels were only ever wheeled, definitely no place for hammers there.

What I can say from my very limited experience is that I have found that hammers are good for blocking and quickly putting in shape just where it is needed and smoothing can then be done on the English wheel. I learnt a lot from Ron Fournier who always made his panels in this way, annealing the aluminium first to make it easy to work, roughing out the shape and planishing using the wheel. Stretching is normally fairly easy but there is the danger that where a lot of shape is needed that the metal will become extremely thin. This is where shrinking comes in but far more difficult to achieve than stretching. I do have a shrinker but it cannot cope with heavy shrinking in the middle of a panel so it can mean making the panel in more than one section to allow shrinking and stretching.

The attached are screen shots from one of Wray Shelin's videos. The first is the aptly named "Shrink Facilitator" which puts tucks in which can then be hammered back into themselves and this allows some serious shrinking. The other picture is of a panel from a Porsche 550 which shows a lot of bunched up metal that needs to be "Lost" or shrunk. This is an example of what can, with the necessary expertise, be made in one panel. More than one person commented that if he had been making that and it looked like that, he would have consigned it to the bin!


John Bonnett - 17/1/21 at 04:41 PM

It's been a bit of a fiddle matching the position of the second arch to the first and making sure the levels are correct but I got there in the end and it is now ready to be welded in after its had a coat of primer. It has been slow going but accuracy is more important than speed and a shoddy job will always be there to haunt me.



[Edited on 17/1/21 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 23/1/21 at 04:31 PM

The second inner arch is now welded in place and is as near dimensionally and positionally the same as the first one as I can make it. Position is all important because it has a knock-on effect on the outer wings.

I'm currently working on the seat belt reel mounts and did a mockup to check that the position would be suitable and convenient to access when sitting in the car.

I've been playing with the slope of the rear window and the photos show it placed at 19 & 22 degrees. If I settle for the steeper of the two angles the rear bodywork between the base of the window frame and the end of the car would flatten out towards the horizontal and not follow the slope all the way. The shallower angle will allow the slope to continue all the way. The next thing to do is to form some sweeps and define the profile from the centre of the windscreen frame to the rear of the body. This will give a better idea of which design will be the most pleasing.





[Edited on 23/1/21 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 23/1/21 by John Bonnett]



[Edited on 23/1/21 by John Bonnett]


ettore bugatti - 23/1/21 at 07:07 PM

Good progress!

I would also tape the belt line with masking tape to get an idea how that is going to look and the effect on the C-pillars.


John Bonnett - 23/1/21 at 07:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Good progress!

I would also tape the belt line with masking tape to get an idea how that is going to look and the effect on the C-pillars.



Thank you EB, I'm glad you still find the time to keep an eye on my posts and for your helpful comments. Much appreciated.

The attached photo very crudely inked with a felt tip in a funny sort of way shows that this is very close to what I am hoping to achieve in basic shape for the body windscreen rearwards. As far as possible I am trying to keep the double curvature as simple as possible with the minimum of reverse curves and definitely no feature lines. The DB5 rear end is an example of what I shouldn't find too difficult to form. The waist line is fairly straight from the headlights to the rear lights with just a small reverse from the rear lamps housing to the boot lid; all quite gentle and doable.


John Bonnett - 31/1/21 at 07:00 PM

Following on from the last update, the seat belt reel mounts are finished and the tube accommodating them welded in place. I folded a U channel which will form for want of a better description the side window reveals and will also have a ledge welded to it for the parcel shelf. The ledge will actually be a folded L section welded together to make a rectangle and attached to the seat belt rail at the front and to the U channels each side.

I have decided to copy the DB5 rear lamp configuration and mount in a similar position as on the Aston which I'm hoping will work well and look good. The housing should blend into the shape with a pleasing reverse curve. I just put a piece of ply cut to the shape in position to give an idea of how it might look. It probably won't come as a surprise that I am using Land Rover lights at 35 for the set of six delivered and not the similar looking but rather more expensive ones for the Aston that admittedly do have a nice chrome bezel.

The rear window is in position and the stiffening tubes extended and bent to match the proposed curvature of the body and just do this has added shape and character. I'm close now to being able to make the wire frame buck which will be an exciting stage in the build.

It was a relief to look down the length of the car and find that everything is still central and lines up.








ettore bugatti - 1/2/21 at 12:16 PM

Nice progress!

That rear Fiesta screen looks big, but it seems to fit fine.

I guess you already know/seen the David Brown Speedback that turned a XK8 into an DB5 inspired design




You could always use a polished aluminium or stainless trim for the rear lights surround.



[Edited on 1/2/21 by ettore bugatti]


John Bonnett - 1/2/21 at 01:02 PM

No I hadn't seen that conversion. It works really well.

Regarding the rear screen I don't have the worries about its size as I did with the front one and I have every hope that it will blend in with the rest of the body shape.

I'm not concerned about the lack of a chrome bezel on the lamps. I'm going to try to make the rear light enclosure in exactly the same way as Astons hammer forming the mounting plate with a rearwards facing flange. The body panel will be edge welded to it. The bezel barely shows up anyway.


ettore bugatti - 1/2/21 at 01:58 PM

I have every confidence that you will figure the bevel out anyway.

How far apart are the rear light units? Both blueprints show the inner edge of the cluster lines up with the inside of the rear wheels in the rear view, you might want to do the same.
So viewed from the top you can slighty curve the rear wings inwards from largest width at the end of the door to the end of the car.

Somehow the rear end lines reminds me of a Alfa-Romeo Guilietta Sprint, SS and SZ so that is a good thing.

It would be good to see it on wheels when the wireframe is taking shape.


John Bonnett - 1/2/21 at 06:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I have every confidence that you will figure the bevel out anyway.

How far apart are the rear light units? Both blueprints show the inner edge of the cluster lines up with the inside of the rear wheels in the rear view, you might want to do the same.
So viewed from the top you can slighty curve the rear wings inwards from largest width at the end of the door to the end of the car.

Somehow the rear end lines reminds me of a Alfa-Romeo Guilietta Sprint, SS and SZ so that is a good thing.

It would be good to see it on wheels when the wireframe is taking shape.


I'm setting the lamps as far towards the centre of the car as I can but am limited by the tubes from the rear window which angle outwards. I'll need sufficient space to allow a sensible transition in curvatures. I'm planning a similar taperas you describe down the side of the car looked from above.

Hopes of more progress today were dashed when I discovered a mistake I'd made, omitting to notice that the transverse tube immediately below the rear window had bent where it was welded to the window aperture. There was a knock-on effect with other tubes being misplaced so there has been a lot of cutting out and rewelding but most of all, measuring again and again. It's taken most of the day to get it right but all is well now and we should be able to move on.


HowardB - 2/2/21 at 09:09 AM

I like the speedback - but more so I am really impressed with how good this is turning out to be,...

the second cousin to a plastic pig is going to be a swan!


John Bonnett - 2/2/21 at 10:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
I like the speedback - but more so I am really impressed with how good this is turning out to be,...

the second cousin to a plastic pig is going to be a swan!


We hope Howard but it wont be long before we know the truth!


gremlin1234 - 2/2/21 at 06:19 PM

while you are positioning the lights, don't forget that you must have rear red reflectors, and a rear (again red!) fog light.


John Bonnett - 2/2/21 at 06:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
while you are positioning the lights, don't forget that you must have rear red reflectors, and a rear (again red!) fog light.


Good point and well worth mentioning, thank you, but I hadn't forgotten. I don't want self-adhesive so will probably get a pair of these which will be mounted lower down from the light clusters.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rear-Reflector-Round-Reflector-Red-HELLA-8RA-002-016-111/163585923987?epid=4031357983&hash=item26167b1b93:g:GVkAAOSw3YN XYnZc


Schrodinger - 2/2/21 at 10:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
while you are positioning the lights, don't forget that you must have rear red reflectors, and a rear (again red!) fog light.


Good point and well worth mentioning, thank you, but I hadn't forgotten. I don't want self-adhesive so will probably get a pair of these which will be mounted lower down from the light clusters.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rear-Reflector-Round-Reflector-Red-HELLA-8RA-002-016-111/163585923987?epid=4031357983&hash=item26167b1b93:g:GVkAAOSw3YN XYnZc


Not sure but don't you need a reverse as well (reverse on the left and fog on the right) ?


gremlin1234 - 2/2/21 at 11:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger
Not sure but don't you need a reverse as well (reverse on the left and fog on the right) ?

yes you do now need reverse, but the lights he shows have them already.
and you also are right in that, nowadays it's common for reverse on the nearside, and fog as an almost matched pair on the offside.


John Bonnett - 3/2/21 at 07:54 AM

Whilst I hadn't forgotten the reflectors, I had overlooked the high intensity rear light so thank you for highlighting that. Reverse on the left and fog on the right is an easy option but two reversing lamps give a better spread of light so it may be that I'll fit an additional fog light.


John Bonnett - 3/2/21 at 07:54 AM

Whilst I hadn't forgotten the reflectors, I had overlooked the high intensity rear light so thank you for highlighting that. Reverse on the left and fog on the right is an easy option but two reversing lamps give a better spread of light so it may be that I'll fit an additional fog light.


John Bonnett - 5/2/21 at 05:05 PM

Hammer forming the rear light mounting plates didn't come up to expectations so the one I made has been binned and I'll have another go at some point. So back to the body. In the interests of lightness I'm using 5/8" diameter round tube and 5/8" square ERW. I've added to the frame which is nearly done with just some triangular bracing to go in. The ledge for the parcel shelf made from 1.5mm thick mild steel sheet folded into a right angle section has also gone in. Finally I have tacked in 1" diameter round tube which follows the slope of the roof and will I hope add some rigidity to the frame. A large amount of the frame joints are only tacked so I'm going to have to spend a day or so fully welding what I've done.



steve m - 5/2/21 at 05:18 PM

Only an uneducated question

I believe the rear window frame looks to high in its orintention to were it will meet the roof
also in its plain at the moment rear view will be quite impeded,

It could be that the pics dont really show whats going on

steve


John Bonnett - 5/2/21 at 05:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Only an uneducated question

I believe the rear window frame looks to high in its orintention to were it will meet the roof
also in its plain at the moment rear view will be quite impeded,

It could be that the pics dont really show whats going on

steve


Steve many thanks for your observations. No, the photos don't lie and the window is set up a bit higher than one might think necessary but it is to allow for the curvature of the roof and a flowing curve as it transitions into the back. The straight tubes are not actually the line of the body. The slope of the rear window is 22 degrees and I have sat in the driver's seat and looked over my shoulder. Rear view should be fine but some skill will be needed judging where the rear of the car is when reversing or parallel parking. Or I could take out the skill factor and fit reversing sensors and a camera!


John Bonnett - 7/2/21 at 04:31 PM

A quick update. I made a plywood template for the rear quarter lights and using 20 x 20mm folded angle from 1mm thick mild steel sheet formed the required shape. It was made in three sections TIG welded together. I'll be using Lexan for the windows.

Initial impressions are that with the more structure I add the greater my confidence that the body curves will flow and that we'll end up with a pleasing shape. Famous last words perhaps!




[Edited on 7/2/21 by John Bonnett]


HowardB - 7/2/21 at 05:07 PM

it is looking great John.

As before, each step you take I learn something new

please keep posting the updates

thanks


John Bonnett - 7/2/21 at 06:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
it is looking great John.

As before, each step you take I learn something new

please keep posting the updates

thanks



Well that makes two of us Howard! I try things and sometimes they work and other times they don't.

I keep saying that the wire frame is getting very close but it really is now with just the second quarter light to form and fit and a bit of triangulation to add to the body frame. The wire frame is the really exciting bit because that will define the finished body shape.

I'm going to follow the advice of Lazze a Swedish metal shaper and form just one half of the buck first. He describes his approach in detail in the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRewIG-Bw7o

Although he says the buck is made from the wire used in suspended ceilings it's not clear what the diameter is. He says it is easy to bend by hand but it looks quite substantial. I've got 6mm diameter rod and that's impossible to bend by hand. But perhaps 4 or 5mm fence straining wire might be a bit easier. It needs to be stiff enough to hold its shape but sufficiently pliable to be able to form and adjust by hand. I could well use the 6mm rod for the central spine and wheel arches and use the smaller diameter more pliable wire for filling in. The wire frame is another first for me so once again it's going to be a case of trial and error until I get it right. Fortunately I'm doing this for myself and don't have to justify the hours spent learning how to do the job.


ettore bugatti - 7/2/21 at 06:56 PM

King zero project use 1/4" cold rolled steel, he bends over his knee or put it through the roller. But it is probably similar to what you have already.

Or maybe ask what Gasolini is using on his Lancia special, although a preview showed filling pipes with sand and heating it.

Is the door glass also going to be Lexan?


John Bonnett - 7/2/21 at 07:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
King zero project use 1/4" cold rolled steel, he bends over his knee or put it through the roller. But it is probably similar to what you have already.

Or maybe ask what Gasolini is using on his Lancia special, although a preview showed filling pipes with sand and heating it.

Is the door glass also going to be Lexan?


Yes that's the same as I have or the metric equivalent. It really is very hard and tough. I do have the means to bend it but it would be convenient if I could adjust the shape by hand by using a more malleable wire but sufficiently stiff and robust to allow the panels to be clamped prior to trimming and welding.

I believe Gasolini already has a wooden station buck and I think he is building a supporting frame for the aluminium bodywork out of 10mm diameter tube using the Superleggera (super light) technology developed by an Italian coachbuilder, Felice Bianchi Anderloni.


John Bonnett - 7/2/21 at 08:02 PM

Sorry EB I forgot to answer your last question about the window material. Originally, I was planning on using glass electrically operated windows but I've more or less decided against that route on the grounds of simplicity and saving in weight and there is a big saving in using polycarbonate and just getting rid of the winding mechanism. I know this from experience with the lightweight which I changed from glass to lexan and back to glass.


John Bonnett - 8/2/21 at 08:20 PM

Just in case anybody is interested here are a couple of close up photos of the rear quarter light frame. This is the left hand one now finished and welded in.




John Bonnett - 14/2/21 at 06:31 PM

After spending time hand forming the pattern for the rear light plate I realised that all that was needed was to roll two 90mm diameter rings cut them in half to provide the ends for the two patterns. Two straight lengths and a couple of fusion welds. So easy but why didn't I think of that first off?

I've been banging on about starting the wire frame and today the prevarications ended and I made a start. Wheel arch in place, rear lamp pattern and three stations for the roof buck, the central one continuing to the rear of the car. I'm really pleased with how the curvature flows. Obviously more sections to add but a good start and as symmetrical as I can make the roof.




John Bonnett - 14/2/21 at 08:03 PM

And one more pic


Mr Whippy - 14/2/21 at 10:28 PM

Wow really starting to take shape


HowardB - 14/2/21 at 10:38 PM

Have you seen a picture of a Disco Volante? Circa 2013.. ?

It would make a worthy muse.

Keep up the good work.. so impressed


John Bonnett - 15/2/21 at 09:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
Have you seen a picture of a Disco Volante? Circa 2013.. ?

It would make a worthy muse.

Keep up the good work.. so impressed



No I hadn't come across that model but I love Italian styling and if I could emulate something along those lines I'd be well pleased.

Making the wireform buck is going to be a try each bit and reflect and either proceed or take it out and try a slightly different shape. Without any drawings or clay model I'm flying completely blind so as it develops it comes as a surprise as much to me as everyone else. But so far it is all looking quite promising.


John Bonnett - 18/2/21 at 07:46 PM

The wireform buck for the roof is nearly complete with just one transverse piece to insert. The 6mm rod is nowhere as difficult to work as I feared and it really does stay where it's put. I've found that by welding tabs where the joins are going it is easy to clamp up so that nothing moves during the welding. As one would expect the structure is extremely rigid.

The side of the car will taper both forwards and rearwards from the front of the two doors and to this end I have run a piece of bar to give the curvature. The wheel arches are now in as well.

So far all is progressing well and it is heartening to see the shape of the body develop.



[Edited on 19/2/21 by John Bonnett]


steve m - 18/2/21 at 10:19 PM

I bow to your experience, as the roof line, does appear to be a flowing line with the rear window (or have you lowered it )

All looking good,

steve


John Bonnett - 19/2/21 at 07:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
I bow to your experience, as the roof line, does appear to be a flowing line with the rear window (or have you lowered it )

All looking good,

steve



No Steve the roof hasn't been moved. I sometimes find it difficult to visualise the body line because it is easy to confuse it with the main structure which it doesn't always follow. I'm going to cover the roof with paper as best I can to simulate what it will look like when panelled. I'll do the same with the rest of the body as I go along so that if I'm not satisfied with the shape I can alter the buck before getting too far down the line making panels.

I'll try to get a decent side view which should show how I've tried to make the curve flow from the windscreen over the roof and and down to the rear window. I have to admit that I haven't done this for myself yet so I hope it will look okay. In any case it is what it is because I don't have the heart to go back and start that section again.

[Edited on 19/2/21 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 19/2/21 at 05:29 PM

I've finished the wireform roof buck and it was with no little relief that the side view revealed quite a pleasing flowing curve that I was hoping for. I then covered the wireframe with paper to give an idea of what the car will look like with a roof and I have to say that I'm really pleased with the result.




John Bonnett - 20/2/21 at 09:27 AM

After some serious consideration and a small nudge from EB I'm close to diching the Focus fuel tank in favour of a bespoke one in stainless steel that will allow more boot space and room for the spare wheel. Actually having something in stock and therefore to all intents and purposes free is a powerful argument to use it when working to a limited budget. But ultimately what I don't want to do is to compromise the build and regret the decision when it is too late to change it. I've spoken to Simon Hall at SiFab who made a beautiful job of my G15 tank and he told me that he has the correct flange to allow the fitting of the Focus in-tank pump which I also have. I think that was the clincher. My initial thoughts are to install it immediately behind the firewall. I know it will raise the c of g compared with below the boot and behind the axle but I think that is the only disadvantage.


John Bonnett - 26/2/21 at 05:27 PM

Work on the buck is moving along slowly. A lot of guesswork has gone into the curves on the wire stations and it may well be that some of them will need to be adjusted down the line but one has to start somewhere. Part of the problem has been in visualising the changes in curvature which has put the poor old brain into overload at some points. There is a limit to what can be done with a paper pattern because it doesn't stretch but nevertheless proved very helpful. I even formed a piece of aluminium to get an idea of how the changes in curvature might work. A bit of a knife and fork job but it served its purpose.






John Bonnett - 3/3/21 at 07:00 PM

I've spent a couple of days playing around with shapes on the rear quarter and have formed a panel to give an indication of how it might look. Not the easiest to form because there's a lot going on with the curvature changes but I really like the concept which is absolutely in line with what I'm hoping to achieve.

I used rare earth magnets to hold the paper to the buck while cutting out the pattern and they worked very well. I made the panel in two parts TIG welding them together. I normally gas weld aluminium but at the moment I don't have any gas which I hope to rectify very shortly. This will give the added benefit of being able to anneal the aluminium to make it easier to work. Not all panels need to be annealed but this one certainly would. I have tried using MAPP gas which gives a high temperature but it is no where near as effective as oxy/acetylene.





HowardB - 4/3/21 at 08:23 AM

wow!


nothing else to add!


John Bonnett - 4/3/21 at 09:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
wow!


nothing else to add!


That's very kind of you Howard. Thank you.

The thing with bodywork is that unlike mechanical parts which are either right or wrong, there really isn't a right other than not being symmetrical and it all comes down to personal taste as to what shape is pleasing and acceptable. So there is lots of looking and thinking before settling on the final shape. Having done this with this particular panel I'm favouring softening the curves a little by reducing the depth of the valley so that it flows more easily from one section to another. This is another prime case of needing a starting point first and then it can either be used or changed.

I'm not at the panelling stage but thought it would be interesting to get some idea of how the body might look with that piece done. Actually that's not strictly true, I just had the urge to shape some metal!


Mr Whippy - 4/3/21 at 12:58 PM



yeah that is sure looking like a DB5. Can't wait to see the car progressing now

[Edited on 4/3/21 by Mr Whippy]


John Bonnett - 4/3/21 at 01:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy


yeah that is sure looking like a DB5. Can't wait to see the car progressing now

[Edited on 4/3/21 by Mr Whippy]


It only favours the DB5 in the arrangement of the rear lights and the follow through of the curvature down the length of the car. In all other respects I don't think it will resemble anything that we are familiar with or can relate it to.

I'm going back a few steps today and remaking the curved stations used to form the three quarter panel that I did yesterday. The replacement panel will have a less pronounced valley and will I hope be an improvement.


John Bonnett - 6/3/21 at 08:09 AM

I think I probably mentioned that I'm going to use Jenvey DTH t/bs and this week I bit the bullet and bought them. They are certainly nicely presented and good to know that they are made in the UK. I need the rear throttle body to determine the shape and size of the passenger footwell before I can start fabricating that side of the car. I shall be getting a DTA ecu to go with the Jenvey kit and once I have everything I'll take the engine and all the bits over to SRD to have it set up on their dyno. Once done I'll have an engine that'll start on the button which will be a great step forward.




John Bonnett - 17/3/21 at 04:49 PM

A lot of time has been in shaping and reshaping the wire stations aft of the rear quarter light trying to ensure that the curvature follows through and flows from the roof down into the wing section. I'm not quite there yet but pretty close. I've had to regard the panel I made as starting point A which as I mentioned is very necessary giving a fixed point either to build on or decide is not right and start again. This is the position I was in and had to consign the panel to the bin which always hurts given the price of aluminium. My mentor and friend Trev D as been a terrific help offering advice and suggestions. He has an uncanny knack of grasping the problem with only photos and my garbled description to go on and coming up with a solution that I am able to cope with. He is a natural teacher and if ever he gets fed up with the big hammer he could always run metal shaping courses.

Before moving on to the next step the car was rolled out of the workshop to give it its first taste of the outside world and providing a chance to have a good sweep up as well as an opportunity to see what it looks like at a distance.

I'm using the superleggera method of attaching the aluminium panels where possible and to this end have formed the rear valence edge using 10mm diameter tube with a 15mm wide strip welded to it. With this in place, today's job was, after welding in some bracing, to remove the body from the chassis so that it can be mounted on the rotisserie. It was a bit of a Heath Robinson arrangement using ropes and the engine crane but it came off the chassis in one piece and without any unpleasant surprises.




[Edited on 18/3/21 by John Bonnett]


John Bonnett - 22/3/21 at 04:58 PM

I've spent a bit of time working on the rotisserie and it is now finished. The first roll over was a bit of a buttock clencher but fortunately it all went nicely and without any drama. I had taken measurements before I made the fixtures but nobody makes more mistakes than I do so I was hoping for the best but expecting the worst. My worst nightmare was the whole rig toppling over so it was a great relief when it didn't. It is closest to the ground when on its side but a gap is a gap no matter how small. It is all ready now for a day's welding attending to all the joints that have been hitherto inaccessible.




nick205 - 22/3/21 at 05:14 PM

Nice work as always John.

Having the car rolled over like that will make welding/working on the underside so much easier.

I recall my Dad restoring an E-Type (replacing floor sections) some years back and having to weld on his back. Whilst the car stayed together the language during the welding was bluer than blue!


HowardB - 22/3/21 at 05:22 PM

that looks awesome - did you see the one on Binky? It had a wiper motor or similar for turning the chassis over -


John Bonnett - 22/3/21 at 06:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
that looks awesome - did you see the one on Binky? It had a wiper motor or similar for turning the chassis over -



I did Howard but all their work is awesome even if a bit over the top at times. A very talented and entertaining pair.

This will be the third time I've used the rotisserie and it really does make the welding of any part an absolute breeze. I cannot imagine how Nick's dad coped working with the job above his head with all the dangers of molten metal dropping on him. If ever there was a time to excuse bad language that would have been it.

I know I'm paranoiac about the rig tipping over which is why the front feet extend to full body width. Not necessary I know if the car is pivoted in the centre and balanced which it is but I needed the full width for reassurance. I've used as the basis of my system two SGS engine stands extended in height by about 4 inches and modified so that the upstand is vertical and not tilting back. They can be locked in almost any desired angle by dropping a pin in the hole.

It was a bit of a landmark stage separating the body from the chassis because now the outstanding work can be done on both parts. The chassis can just be turned over and placed on trestles to allow it to be fully welded underneath and at the same time the mounts for the ARB fitted. Once done the chassis will be ready for paint. Following advice from learned friends, I'm departing from powder coating this time and will be spraying on Bilt Hamber products that everybody seems to speak highly of. To be honest whatever I choose to apply will, given the amount of use and exposure to hostile conditions, be absolutely fine and probably just 5 litres of Waxoyl would be sufficient so I'm not agonising over it. Everybody involved in classic car restoration will have their own personal preferences (and hates) but that's what I've decided to go for this time. Rightly or wrongly.


Mr Whippy - 22/3/21 at 07:42 PM

You could use that to slosh paint around inclosed box sections or up into joints to seal them. To repair my first beetle I made a frame that mounted onto the hubs so that the car could be rolled onto its side for welding the floor. Worked a treat but was scary getting it back down as we just pushed it back with a big bounce. Your mount is much more civilised.


John Bonnett - 24/3/21 at 01:20 PM

I've just inserted two small but important pieces of 6mm wire to complete the profile of the outer wheel arches. These will be left in position after the rest of the buck has been removed and used to wire the edges of the wings. These two key pieces now allow fitting more buck stations to the sides of the body and more importantly defining the line of the side valance. Being able to invert the body really does make this so much easier.


gremlin1234 - 24/3/21 at 08:19 PM

another kitten project, but I prefer yours.
I do hope he manages to get it on the road though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfc8ll-CvwU


John Bonnett - 24/3/21 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
another kitten project, but I prefer yours.
I do hope he manages to get it on the road though.


A good find and thank you for sharing it. He certainly has a mountain to climb, that's for sure. The chassis needs a huge amount of work and done properly on a jig using folded channel sections to match the original. The chassis on my car wasn't great but his is in a different league altogether. If it were me, I think I would try to source a replacement chassis or bin the whole thing and find something else.

I shall be very interested in seeing how he decides to tackle the project.


Ian2812 - 25/3/21 at 01:41 AM

Just read all 16 pages! I'll keep it simple...

Pure Class!

Will be logging in more often to see how the car progresses and can't wait to see the end result!

Excellent effort!


John Bonnett - 25/3/21 at 07:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ian2812
Just read all 16 pages! I'll keep it simple...

Pure Class!

Will be logging in more often to see how the car progresses and can't wait to see the end result!

Excellent effort!


Crikey, you must have been very bored but thank you for your kind words. I very much appreciate the support everyone is giving me which really does keep me motivated and keep the project moving forward.


John Bonnett - 25/3/21 at 04:56 PM

I never expected the wireform buck was going to be easy to make and in that sense it hasn't disappointed. I spend much time fitting and removing stations because the curve doesn't follow through and in two days I've probably fitted less than half a dozen stations. And there are more to come out to be adjusted. Fortunately the 6mm wire is very cheap and I have loads of it. But slowly and surely the shape of the body is revealing itself and the more it does the better pleased I am with what is developing.

The eagle eyed amongst you will have noticed that the paper covering on the roof is no more. It caught light during welding!


[Edited on 25/3/21 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 25/3/21 by John Bonnett]


roadrunner - 26/3/21 at 10:14 AM


John Bonnett - 26/3/21 at 05:59 PM

At the risk of boring you, here are a couple more photos of the wireform after another day shaping and reshaping. Just one more staion to add on each side. I'm pretty happy with the curvature and hopefully I can put this bit to bed and move on to forming the drip channel and boot lid.


roadrunner - 26/3/21 at 08:31 PM

Not boring at all John.
You keep posting them photos.
I like looking at pictures.
Great build by the way.
I like to think I'm quite handy and clever but you are on another level altogether.

Brad


John Bonnett - 26/3/21 at 08:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner
Not boring at all John.
You keep posting them photos.
I like looking at pictures.
Great build by the way.
I like to think I'm quite handy and clever but you are on another level altogether.

Brad


Not at all Brad. I'm just a plodder who doesn't like to be beaten. I also have the advantage of being retired and having unlimited workshop time so I can try and try again until I finally get there. I haven't posted any pictures of my impressive scrap bin. You only see the successful bits and none of the failures.


roadrunner - 26/3/21 at 10:45 PM

Without failures we don't learn.
Keep filling that scrap bin, as we never stop learning.


John Bonnett - 27/3/21 at 06:18 PM

With the remaining wire stations inplace I got a bit sidetracked and went back to the practice panel which because of the revised profile defined by the replacement buck stations needed a lot of stretching to produce a reverse curve. It is really satisfying to see a panel develop from a flat sheet of metal and it still surprises me how much metal can move, either by stretching or shrinking.


John Bonnett - 28/3/21 at 12:13 PM

I'm not sure how much benefit there has been by wrapping the wireframe in paper but it didn't take long to do. But on balance, it has served to confirm that the body shape is pleasing to my eye and close to what I am hoping to achieve. So, I'm taking the rest of the day off!!


ADH75 - 28/3/21 at 03:26 PM

I doff my hat to you! Those last pictures really do give an idea of a truly fantastic looking car.

I came to this thread in December when I joined the site and eagerly check to see if there has been any progress reports. Its one thing putting a well designed kit together but to do a coupe from scratch is on another level. I do also enjoy seeing those "man in a shed" engineering projects as long as that isn't to insulting to your project.

Now if only someone would commission a tv show to follow an idea through like this, as not to make something cool, extreme or whatever but a nice, classic looking car to inspire clumsy, hamfisted dreamers like me, I'd be glued every episode.

Thanks for continuing sharing your progress and I look forward to seeing your next update. All the best for the rest of your build.

[Edited on 28/3/21 by ADH75]


John Bonnett - 28/3/21 at 03:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ADH75
I doff my hat to you! Those last pictures really do give an idea of a truly fantastic looking car.

I came to this thread in December when I joined the site and eagerly check to see if there has been any progress reports. Its one thing putting a well designed kit together but to do a coupe from scratch is on another level. I do also enjoy seeing those "man in a shed" engineering projects as long as that isn't to insulting to your project.

Now if only someone would commission a tv show to follow an idea through like this, as not to make something cool, extreme or whatever but a nice, classic looking car to inspire clumsy,.hamfisted dreamers like me, I'd be glued every episode.

Thanks for continuing to sharing your progress and I look forward to seeing your next.update. All the best for the rest of your build.



That is so nice. I welled up when I read that. Thank you so much.

My next step was to be the boot area, drip channel, hinges and boot lid but I've decided to focus on panelling in the floor and rear firewall and when that's done the body can go back on the chassis and the whole thing mounted on the rotisserie. Even with the chassis in place there will be full access to everything I need to get to.

Before the chassis can be fitted there is more welding needed to the underneath followed by paint. So, plenty of varied jobs to get on with. Frightening how quickly the MIG gas is being consumed.


rdodger - 28/3/21 at 04:42 PM

This is going to look so good John

Dare I say even better than the last one!

Will you keep this one when finished?


John Bonnett - 28/3/21 at 05:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
This is going to look so good John

Dare I say even better than the last one!

Will you keep this one when finished?



It has always saddened me to sell on my projects but apart from a lack of space to keep them all, by necessity one has go to fund the next. Both the lightweight and the G15 went to good homes and are being cherished which eases the load no end. But this has to be my last major project so there will be no reason to move it on when it is finished and every reason to keep it. I'm hoping it will be a comfortable and civilised car and good for road trips which I hope will be possible once again once the Covid rules have been relaxed. Still a very long way to go but I'm hoping to have it running and being able to drive it around the farm by the end of the summer.


rdodger - 28/3/21 at 05:50 PM

That's a bit bitter sweet. What will we all have to look forward to if you aren't building a car?

You will just have to report on your road trips.

Has colour been discussed yet? I'm thinking the Aston Martin metallic sage green would look good.


John Bonnett - 28/3/21 at 05:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
That's a bit bitter sweet. What will we all have to look forward to if you aren't building a car?

You will just have to report on your road trips.

Has colour been discussed yet? I'm thinking the Aston Martin metallic sage green would look good.


Do you know Rodger I haven't even considered the colour but you're right that would be a fabulous colour to paint it. Thank you for that.

I always regretted painting the lightweight but if a car is going to be used and exposed to the elements it has to be protected but in its unpainted stage nobody could resist stroking it and to my sheer amazement even the lady manning the immigration kiosk at Roscoff leaned right out of her window and ran her hand over the roof. Once it was painted nobody did that anymore.


rdodger - 28/3/21 at 06:11 PM

You are correct about bare aluminium cars. Gerry Hawkridge gets very wound up with people touching the bare ally Cobra he keeps taking to the shows. Even worse the people who knocked on it to check it wasn't grp!

I guess you would especially since hours and hours had gone into the polishing then scotch brighting to give the brushed look with mirror finish roundels and stripes.


Mr Whippy - 29/3/21 at 11:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett





Oh Oh he's building a Trabant!

Does look good though


roadrunner - 29/3/21 at 11:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett





Oh Oh he's building a Trabant!

Does look good though


And the donor engine is on the floor waiting for the transplant.


John Bonnett - 9/4/21 at 11:01 AM

Over the last few days I've been concentrating on panelling the rear bulkhead and some more of the floor. I'm using 18 gauge NS4 aluminium alloy bonded to the frame using Wayside panel adhesive and 4mm countersunk rivets spaced every 50 mms. A laborious job but made much easier by having an air riveter.

I have finally decided on the corrosion protection for the chassis which will be a coat of Bilt Hamber zinc rich primer followed by two pack epoxy mastic also from Bilt Hamber. This will be sprayed on.

I have ordered the DTA ecu and at some point in the near future will get the engine across to my builder to have an ecu loom made and the engine set up on his dyno. Unfortunately the S40Pro which I was set on has been superseded by a later model with the inevitable price increase. I should have ordered it sooner.

I'm just waiting for a quote from Simon Hall at SiFab for the fuel tank. I'm using the Focus in-tank pump but am not taking advantage of the float type fuel sender built in to the pump because its output is not compatible with an ETB fuel gauge without additional circuitry. So I'm having an ETB sender fitted which is the simplest and probably the cheaper solution.

The chassis is currently still separated from the body having now been fully welded but ready for the body to be trial fitted just to check that nothing has moved during welding, before removal for painting.

So, lots going on and the project is moving in the right direction.




John Bonnett - 17/4/21 at 05:35 PM

It has taken most of the week but the passenger footwell is now in place and the remaining floor panelled. I have reduced the depth of the footwell by four inches compared with the one on the driver's side in order to give clearance for the throttle bodies and airbox. Taking into account the pedals the legroom on both sides is probably the same.



John Bonnett - 18/4/21 at 07:25 PM

I was hoping to do a trial fit of the body back on the chassis today but was thwarted by the recently fitted rear firewall and flooring. When fitting it I hadn't taken into account the the part of the chassis that angles upwards to clear the axle. These sections prevented the body from going down onto the chassis so I'll need to do a bit of work to get over this problem. It should be fairly simple just cutting out and boxing in.


John Bonnett - 19/4/21 at 03:57 PM

Using a combination of tools including an air saw and angle grinder I managed to remove sufficient material from the firewall and floor to allow the body to drop down onto the chassis. NS4 even 18 gauge is surprisingly tough to cut. But I managed it without it looking too much like a knife and fork job.

It came as a huge relief when I lowered the body onto its mountings and it fitted just as it did before everything was fully welded. Side to side it's half a hole out but it will be coming off almost immediately so that the chassis can be stripped down and painted. But while it is in place I can decide how I'm going to seal off the engine bay from the cabin. One example of the law of unforeseen consequences I discovered when I tried to fit the bolt for the starter motor. But once the body is off it will be a simple matter to contour the upright to give clearance for the bolt head. Other than that, no problems which is great news.

This is the first time that I've seen the car on its wheels at more or less ride height with the wire form buck in place. I probably shouldn't say this but I love the shape and the motor car that is evolving and am finding the project more and more exciting as it progresses.







starterman - 19/4/21 at 07:56 PM

John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


John Bonnett - 19/4/21 at 08:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


rusty nuts - 19/4/21 at 08:47 PM

A socket head bolt?


John Bonnett - 19/4/21 at 08:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
A socket head bolt?



I don't think even a length of studding will go in because the upright pushes it across that bit too far but as I mentioned to Mike modding the upright isn't a problem and once the cut out is made I'll cap it with a closing piece so that it will look like it's meant to be. Well that's the hope anyway!


Deckman001 - 20/4/21 at 02:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Just a thought John, could the starter flange hole be enlarged to allow a bolt be put in from the other side so that just a nyloc nut could be put at the end, at the other side of the housing ?

Jason


John Bonnett - 20/4/21 at 03:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Deckman001
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Just a thought John, could the starter flange hole be enlarged to allow a bolt be put in from the other side so that just a nyloc nut could be put at the end, at the other side of the housing ?

Jason



Good thought Jason, thank you. Yes that could be done but I had another thought. A length of high tensile M12 studding could be threaded into and locktited on the starter and a nut and washer fitted on the back. So we have quite a few possibilities to choose from thanks to the suggestions that have come in.

Tomorrow, I'm hoping to lift the body off the chassis, strip the chassis down and get some paint on it and once painted it can be refitted to the body for good I hope. I have sourced some closed cell rubber foam which does not absorb water to go between the chassis and body. The firm that supplied it cut it to size which is useful.


starterman - 20/4/21 at 06:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Currently I'm modifying my rear uprights so that I can finish fitting the LSD and once that is done then I will be over. Could you let me have the part number from your starter please?


John Bonnett - 20/4/21 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by starterman
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Currently I'm modifying my rear uprights so that I can finish fitting the LSD and once that is done then I will be over. Could you let me have the part number from your starter please?



I'm not sure how I can find the part number. The starter is for a MK1 1.6 Focus 2004 and looks similar to this one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FITS-FORD-FOCUS-MK1-MK2-MK3-1998-2018-1-4-1-6-PETROL-BRAND-NEW-STARTER-MOTOR/142457133839


John Bonnett - 20/4/21 at 07:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Currently I'm modifying my rear uprights so that I can finish fitting the LSD and once that is done then I will be over. Could you let me have the part number from your starter please?



I'm not sure how I can find the part number. The starter is for a MK1 1.6 Focus 2004 and looks similar to this one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FITS-FORD-FOCUS-MK1-MK2-MK3-1998-2018-1-4-1-6-PETROL-BRAND-NEW-STARTER-MOTOR/142457133839


Look forward to seeing you and best of luck with the work on the car.


starterman - 20/4/21 at 07:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Currently I'm modifying my rear uprights so that I can finish fitting the LSD and once that is done then I will be over. Could you let me have the part number from your starter please?



I'm not sure how I can find the part number. The starter is for a MK1 1.6 Focus 2004 and looks similar to this one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FITS-FORD-FOCUS-MK1-MK2-MK3-1998-2018-1-4-1-6-PETROL-BRAND-NEW-STARTER-MOTOR/142457133839


Look forward to seeing you and best of luck with the work on the car.


Don't cut out the upright just yet, I might have an idea. I'll be in touch.......


John Bonnett - 20/4/21 at 08:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by starterman
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by starterman
John, for the starter bolt why not use a normal bolt and a flat washer?


I don't think even the shank will go in, the upright is just masking the edge of the hole and it is a very long bolt. The starter flange is threaded so the bolt does have to go in from the bell housing side. Cutting a bit out of the square tube won't be a problem with the engine out of the way and it then enables the standard bolt fixing to be retained.

If you fancy giving the car a bit of an airing please do pop over, I'd love to see it and of course the power bulge is here waiting for you.


Currently I'm modifying my rear uprights so that I can finish fitting the LSD and once that is done then I will be over. Could you let me have the part number from your starter please?



I'm not sure how I can find the part number. The starter is for a MK1 1.6 Focus 2004 and looks similar to this one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FITS-FORD-FOCUS-MK1-MK2-MK3-1998-2018-1-4-1-6-PETROL-BRAND-NEW-STARTER-MOTOR/142457133839


Look forward to seeing you and best of luck with the work on the car.


Don't cut out the upright just yet, I might have an idea. I'll be in touch.......



I'm liking the sound of that


John Bonnett - 30/4/21 at 10:19 AM

Thread Moved here

https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/218220/reliant-kitten-rebodied

I've decided to continue writing up my project build on RetroRides partly because of the reliability of the site and the ease of posting photos.

Please understand that I'm not jumping ship and will remain part of the Locost community which I value very highly.

Thank you all for your support and encouragement along the way and I hope this will continue as before.


gremlin1234 - 30/4/21 at 03:02 PM

Hi John,
could I recommend that you put a post in your new 'home' linking back to this thread, so people can get even more background

all the best
G


John Bonnett - 30/4/21 at 03:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
Hi John,
could I recommend that you put a post in your new 'home' linking back to this thread, so people can get even more background

all the best
G



Do you think they are that bored? ha ha!. Yes great suggestion, thank you I'll certainly do that and it will perhaps lead people here who are unaware of what a great community this is.


pmc_3 - 30/4/21 at 03:16 PM

It might be worth just putting a quick post on here to say when there is an update on the Retrorides thread. I've been following this one but don't check that forum all that often.

[Edited on 30/4/21 by pmc_3]


John Bonnett - 30/4/21 at 03:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by pmc_3
It might be worth just putting a quick post on here to say when there is an update on the Retrorides thread. I've been following this one but don't check that forum all that often.

[Edited on 30/4/21 by pmc_3]


It might be easier if you bookmark the RR thread and then you should be updated automatically. Just a suggestion.


steve m - 30/4/21 at 07:46 PM

Good thought Jason, thank you. Yes that could be done but I had another thought. A length of high tensile M12 studding could be threaded into and locktited on the starter and a nut and washer fitted on the back. So we have quite a few possibilities to choose from thanks to the suggestions that have come in.

Tomorrow, I'm hoping to lift the body off the chassis, strip the chassis down and get some paint on it and once painted it can be refitted to the body for good I hope. I have sourced some closed cell rubber foam which does not absorb water to go between the chassis and body. The firm that supplied it cut it to size which is useful.


I was going to suggest exactly the above, with coming in from the other side, it also has the advantage of locating the starter, and holding it, for when the other two? bolts are fitted, as even with my crossflow, with just two bolts, was a pita trying to line them up

Lastly John, is your build on line elsewere as well ? as ive decieded that next time this site falls over, i will leave, but would like to keep tabs of what your building


John Bonnett - 30/4/21 at 08:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Good thought Jason, thank you. Yes that could be done but I had another thought. A length of high tensile M12 studding could be threaded into and locktited on the starter and a nut and washer fitted on the back. So we have quite a few possibilities to choose from thanks to the suggestions that have come in.

Tomorrow, I'm hoping to lift the body off the chassis, strip the chassis down and get some paint on it and once painted it can be refitted to the body for good I hope. I have sourced some closed cell rubber foam which does not absorb water to go between the chassis and body. The firm that supplied it cut it to size which is useful.


I was going to suggest exactly the above, with coming in from the other side, it also has the advantage of locating the starter, and holding it, for when the other two? bolts are fitted, as even with my crossflow, with just two bolts, was a pita trying to line them up

Lastly John, is your build on line elsewere as well ? as ive decieded that next time this site falls over, i will leave, but would like to keep tabs of what your building


That would be great Steve. I've just started writing it up on RetroRides and here's the link.

https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/218220/reliant-kitten-rebodied

I look forward to seeing you there.

Kind regards John


jps - 14/5/21 at 09:12 AM

John - just posting on here, as i've got so many forum logins i try to avoid collecting more.

The latest updates look fantastic - your thread is one of the things that really gives me a kick in the backside to get back in the garage - especially your comment "as with so often happens, the anticipation was worse than the event." - as I am very much in the: measure once, measure twice, measure thrice, etc camp!

Very interesting to see those renders from Horrido - and I for one think it looks better with the straight rear fin you've committed to!


John Bonnett - 14/5/21 at 09:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jps
John - just posting on here, as i've got so many forum logins i try to avoid collecting more.

The latest updates look fantastic - your thread is one of the things that really gives me a kick in the backside to get back in the garage - especially your comment "as with so often happens, the anticipation was worse than the event." - as I am very much in the: measure once, measure twice, measure thrice, etc camp!

Very interesting to see those renders from Horrido - and I for one think it looks better with the straight rear fin you've committed to!



I still receive email notifications so not a problem and thank you so much for your kind words. It is the encouragement that drives the project forward so very much appreciated.

Etorre Bugatti here on this site and now Horrido on the RR site have been hugely influential on the body shape and I am indebted to both of them. The rendered drawing has just blown me away and so close to my concept that it is uncanny. Whether I have the ability to panel it is something we'll have to wait and see but now I now know what I am aiming for and I'll give it my best shot.


John Bonnett - 27/9/21 at 05:55 PM

Just a few photos showing progress on the project. All going well and the engine, a standard 1.6 Sigma from a scrap Focus made 135bhp on the dyno when the DTA ecu and Jenvey DTH throttle bodies were set up.






Mr Whippy - 27/9/21 at 11:17 PM

Wow sure wish I had a tenth of your skill... The lines of the back are perfect


John Bonnett - 28/9/21 at 08:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Wow sure wish I had a tenth of your skill... The lines of the back are perfect


Thank you for your kind words, very much appreciated.


roadrunner - 28/9/21 at 08:51 AM

Come along nicely.


big_wasa - 28/9/21 at 09:43 AM

Very nice


John Bonnett - 28/9/21 at 05:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
Very nice



Thank you, everyone.

I'd appreciate any help and advice you could give me on a power distribution unit for my car that won't cost an arm and a leg. I know very little about them but from what I understand they offer a significant advantage over conventional fuses and relays.