Or was it.
This snow, I've certainly seen winters before, but not consistently.
The Sarf East exepcially seems to be getting hammered to unprecedented levels. The last few winters seem a bit harsher than the preceeding nearly
forty which I can remember. (44 now).
When you look at the likes of Canada, there is a huge amount of it which is much further south than we are here in the uk, yet they have much warmer
summers and much colder winters.
all because of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutdown_of_thermohaline_circulation
Or rather the dependency on the scenario in the link not taking place.
The question is, while you look out on the snow/ ice / fog.
Is the climate changing ?
What happens to the uk if the Gulf Stream and more specifically the North Atlantic Drift were to stop ?
Is that what's happening right now, or are we all being a bit dramatic ?
Lastly, what's the correct size of snow tyre to put on a pair of winter steelies to replace the 205/50x15"s on alloys on the Golf GTI ?
(Some motoring content there)
South of france is freezing due to no gulf stream. Worse case senario we will be as cold as moscow.
Darren
I'd better buy a job lot of fur hats now then!!
Ill make a killing down the market!
Average temperatures over a whole year are higher now than any time in the last 350 years (look up central England temperature). The difference in the last few years are wilder weather than before. More frequent cold snaps in winter. Whole months of rain in the summer. There is no doubt that the weather in this country has gone mad in the last few years but I'm not sure the data is there to support your gulf stream theory.
quote:
Lastly, what's the correct size of snow tyre to put on a pair of winter steelies to replace the 205/50x15"s on alloys on the Golf GTI ?
(Some motoring content there)
Is the climate changing YES - It has done consistently since the dawn of the planet !!!
but surly the following has got to have a bigger affect on global warming.
1, the ozone layer reduction over the north pole ( this is now no longer in decline 1? ) changing weather patterns
2, Deforestation every ware
3, increased world population
My other thoughts are
1 the Romans were growing wine in the UK in the roman times (documented)
2 surly we have only been monitoring temperatures accurately for 100 years or so how can the data be used to predict temperature rise
3 why happening now rather than victorian times
4 I suspect the UK's Impact is minimal whan looking a tht esize of China and Amerca's CO output
but its a good excuse for the government to TAX us more.
Regards
agriv8
quote:
Originally posted by Agriv8
1, the ozone layer reduction over the north pole ( this is now no longer in decline 1? ) changing weather patterns
Yes, this was causes by CFCs in aerosols and fridges. As soon as we stopped it, the ozon holes started to close. Job done.
2, Deforestation every ware
Yes, a big problem. Forests extract CO2 from the air and turn it into wood. Fewer trees = more atmospheric CO2. This is what people refer to as man made climate change.
3, increased world population
My other thoughts are
1 the Romans were growing wine in the UK in the roman times (documented)
... and we do now. No change there then.
2 surly we have only been monitoring temperatures accurately for 100 years or so how can the data be used to predict temperature rise.
Central England Temperatures have been recorded the same way for 350 years. The results are lovely.
3 why happening now rather than victorian times
Global temperatures started to rise a year or two after the condensing steam engine was patented. At first only the UK was at it but it wasn't long before other countries followed us. Even China is now industrialising.
4 I suspect the UK's Impact is minimal whan looking a tht esize of China and Amerca's CO output
UK man made emissions since the invention of the steam engine are I believe the second highest in the world. The US is slightly more and China is catching up fast. We're still one of the worst in the world but about average for Western Europe. Ireland, Canada and Australia are particularly bad, per person. Of course the UK only makes up 1% of the worlds population but we consume 3 times as much natural resource as the planet can support per person
Don’t panic, snowing at this time of year is quite normal and in summer it’s much warmer than now so your not all going to die of frost bite
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Don’t panic, snowing at this time of year is quite normal and in summer it’s much warmer than now so your not all going to die of frost bite
quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
However, it does appear to me that the seasons in recent years are become more distinct rather than "not particualrly hot or cold plus a bit damp."
Which we seemed to get for years, that's all.
quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Don’t panic, snowing at this time of year is quite normal and in summer it’s much warmer than now so your not all going to die of frost bite
Oh, I know.
There's no sense of panic here. It's not like were actually in control of it happening or not.
However, it does appear to me that the seasons in recent years are become more distinct rather than "not particualrly hot or cold plus a bit damp."
Which we seemed to get for years, that's all.
It's only snowed for a week, what you on about ? Some of the pictures in the news have made me laugh, there is still grass showing through the snow and the roads have an inch or two on them. I can remember walking to work for a fortnight because the roads were impassable many years ago. You're being brainwashed by the government global warming hype to get more taxes out of you.
I remember when I were a lad, being told by my primary school teacher that it was dangerous to walk out onto the ice that was on the sea in Swansea
bay! That would have been around 1963...
Interestingly, even though it was VERY cold for quite a few weeks, cars and buses were still moving around the town.
The problem in the UK is that we're just not used to snow - other countries that get it every winter have developed techniques for dealing with
it. For example, in some parts of Scandinavia they don't grit the roads - they just go over with a snow plough to move the bulk of it. Cars are
expected/obliged to have winter tyres, and know how to drive in those conditions. I believe that fitting snow chains forms part of the driving test
in some regions...
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by Agriv8
.....
... and we do now. No change there then.
2 surly we have only been monitoring temperatures accurately for 100 years or so how can the data be used to predict temperature rise.
Central England Temperatures have been recorded the same way for 350 years. The results are lovely.
....
Vegaterians are the main cause of global warming if you think about. The biggest contribution to greenhouse gases is the methane produced by cows.
If more people ate cows then there would be less gas, hence its the vegaterians fault 
I think you may have a point there Neil... 
Frankie Boyle's Classic Line on Vegetarianism in Mock-the-Week
NSFW!
Another thing that was on some documentry I watcged.
There was more Co2 in the air when volcano's were active than there is now.
2nd the first living organisms (singled celled) breathed co2 not oxygen!!
Are we having an affect, most definitely. Is it as big as the Gov and greenies would have us think, prob not.
Are folk ill prepared and un-trained for snowy conditions most definitely . Practically everyone going past my house this morning has skidded, no
speed involved just braked everytime the went on to the compacted snow!!
MikeRJ - go and lookup the definition of climate, and the definition of weather. Two very different definitions....
So what evidence do you have to refute the goverment and scientific claims on climate change? Have you actually read and understood the contect of
what was said by the CRU? Armchair politics is all very well, but it is people like you that results in no decision making at Copenhagen. The
scientific evidence is compelling, and only a fool (or a Bush) would argue against it without some strong evidence to the contrary.... Not all things
the goverment do are about squeezing you for tax money, occasionaly, they might just be onto something!
Are you really prepared to sit back and wait a couple of generations, and explain to your grandchildren your rationale for doing nothing....?
[Edited on 22/12/09 by twybrow]
It's just winter, the UK sometimes get's a harsh one.. Our memory's seem to only be accurate for about 3 years; don't worry about
it last harsh one was probably 13yrs ago, and we all forgot..
Like above climate and weather are different things, weather is sort term year to year stuff (like this winter) climate is a longer time scale
thing... Climate change might be responsible for example for our winters getting shorter (if you do gardening you might have noticed this)...
Dan
[Edited on 22/12/09 by Bluemoon]
The climate is changing and some of the problem is man-made.
On the other hand, half the time people are complaining that winters are too warm, now they're complaining they're too cold.
I guess it's only the winters of childhood memories that were always perfectly snowy and just the right temperature for snowball fights....
Arrghh.... We are all Doomed
The world has been both hotter AND colder in the last 200,000 years. And thats all before the industrial revolution introduced CO2 emissions.
OK Man isnt helping the climate. But the World and Nature is bigger than Man alone, and will ultimately do what it wants.
Man is so arrogant that they THINK we can control the climate. Try controlling the Ocean, or a Volcano or even coastal erosion. History has show us
that we just cannot do it. Thus Nature will always win.
When Man has become extinct, maybe its time for the insects to take over!
When the top 1/3 of the lattitudes of the world are covered in 1 kilometer of Ice and snow, it will take a LOT of JCB's to clear it!
Its all just a BIG PLOY by Governments in a bid to squeeze more TAXES out of a stupid and gullible public.
We will never learn will we??
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
Arrghh.... We are all Doomed
The world has been both hotter AND colder in the last 200,000 years. And thats all before the industrial revolution introduced CO2 emissions.
OK Man isnt helping the climate. But the World and Nature is bigger than Man alone, and will ultimately do what it wants.
Man is so arrogant that they THINK we can control the climate. Try controlling the Ocean, or a Volcano or even coastal erosion. History has show us that we just cannot do it. Thus Nature will always win.
When Man has become extinct, maybe its time for the insects to take over!
When the top 1/3 of the lattitudes of the world are covered in 1 kilometer of Ice and snow, it will take a LOT of JCB's to clear it!
Its all just a BIG PLOY by Governments in a bid to squeeze more TAXES out of a stupid and gullible public.
We will never learn will we??
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
Arrghh.... We are all Doomed
The world has been both hotter AND colder in the last 200,000 years. And thats all before the industrial revolution introduced CO2 emissions.
OK Man isnt helping the climate. But the World and Nature is bigger than Man alone, and will ultimately do what it wants.
Man is so arrogant that they THINK we can control the climate. Try controlling the Ocean, or a Volcano or even coastal erosion. History has show us that we just cannot do it. Thus Nature will always win.
When Man has become extinct, maybe its time for the insects to take over!
When the top 1/3 of the lattitudes of the world are covered in 1 kilometer of Ice and snow, it will take a LOT of JCB's to clear it!
Its all just a BIG PLOY by Governments in a bid to squeeze more TAXES out of a stupid and gullible public.
We will never learn will we??
I just want to say that Canada only looks bad in the pollution arena because of our small population. And the places that do the most complaining
about us are those that have bigger, much more polluting populations. Even here, the most populous, energy hungry provinces are jumping all over
Alberta. Hey, if you don't want the oil, don't drive a car, don't buy a product where the thing was sent by truck etc. etc. Just walk
everywhere like in the old days. Except you CAN'T in this country, because there is no sidewalk half the time, the road is too narrow because of
the snow, you'd freeze before getting there, and things are way to far apart.
You are lucky to have a half decent public transit system. Anything can be improved, yes, but here there is eff all most places outside Toronto and
Montreal - hardly even buses.
Don't despair, your snow will soon be gone; ours won't be gone for 6 more months.
Thats the thing you see...
Is the climate changing? Yes it is - and always has done
Is man having an effect on the current increase in temps? Maybe - but at the moment the average global temp is well within the normal historical
variation.
How big is the effect? No one really 100% knows - hence why governments are taking the precautions of trying to reduce emmissions.
You can make the data say what you want depending on your viewpoint. In the 1970s the data pointed to global cooling and everyone was panicing that
the next ice age was coming as the trend was globl temps decreasing. Now the trend is increasing temps everyone jumps on the global warming
bandwagon.
Theres a saying in the scientific community - if you want funding for your project mention climate change and you'll get as much as you can
spend.
My viewpoint is this:
The climate is changing - though whilst it is within the natural variation of historic temps I am not panicing.
Yes the whole world needs to reduce its use of carbon based fuels, this can only be a good thing long term as it provokes development of new
technologies. And this should be the driving force for these technologies.
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Even China is now industrialising
we consume 3 times as much natural resource as the planet can support per person
Forgive me chaps, I sent the link to this thread to my Mrs, who is a climate change advisor for the UK goverment. Here is her response:
"Yes, climate has always changed, lots of natural cycles, caused, in part to Milankovitch cycles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles. This is totally normal, and explains some of the things listed above - warmer in roman times,
colder in middle ages (the mini-ice age), sea level changes, and there is nothing we will do to change these natural cycles.
However, the levels of CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere are totally unprecedented for many thousands of years. These are warming the
Earth and masking the natural cycles (e.g. the mentioned ice age we are apparently heading towards). Yes, we've seen CO2 levels this high before
many millennia ago, but we weren't around then. With 6 billion people living on our planet now, climate changes of the scale we will see if we
don't do anything will be, quite simply, catastrophic.
Has anyone actually sat down and read the latest assessment of ALL the climate science out there, the IPCC forth assessment report
(http://www.ipcc.ch/)? I haven't, and until I do, I think its fair to say that there are a lot of people out there who understand the science
more than me. Most notably, about 96% of all the climate scientists out there.
And we have quite considerably more than the Central England Temperature record. Yes, this is one of the best data sets due to its detail, accuracy
and length, but we have quite an arsenal of other data at our disposal - including ice cores, which document Earth's changes from well before we
ever started using thermometers.
Remember - "global warming" isn't all about being able to sit about outside in your pants in the middle of winter in 50 years time.
Yes, we are expecting AVERAGES of warmer, wetter winters and hotter, drier summers, but we also expect more extreme weather events. The climate will
get more unpredictable. It is quite possible that we can have a cold summer or a dry winter without us all proclaiming that the science is rubbish.
All the latest climate predictions for the UK can be found at http://ukcp09.defra.gov.uk/ - the most advanced in the world - and you can look for your
region at what you might be able to expect (on
average) in the future. Definitely more kit car days for me.
And, for the record, the ozone layer is NOT related to global warming - not all environmental issues raised in the last 30 years are to do with global
warming!"
I'll happily send her any questions/comments you might have....
[Edited on 22/12/09 by twybrow]
^ spot on flak monkey
Those climate change hypochondriacs always look on the bad side of things. Think off all the huge areas of land that will become usable instead of
being too cold, Canada, Russia for example while of some desert regions becoming more barren, which is a pretty stupid place to live anyway.
[Edited on 22/12/09 by Mr Whippy]
FFS lads.
All I said was, don't you think it's a bit chilly this winter
climate change is a natrual occurance, the world has gone through 4 major climate shifts in its life.
this may be encouraged by us, or it may not, but anything we do now wont make any difference for hundreds of years.
the world apparently orbits the sun in an eliptical pattern, so sometimes its closer to the sun and we get hot and sometimes its further away and we
get cold.
i dont think we should be too worried, we just shouldnt be as wasteful as we have become. Long and short is theres just too many humans and sooner or
later nature will come sort us out.
just my 2p
quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
FFS lads.
All I said was, don't you think it's a bit chilly this winter
We are technically coming out of an ice age in the GRAND scheme of things so temperatures should be increasing....
should they be increasing as fast as they are currently?... maybe not... whos to really say
If they are increasing faster than normal can we say that this is our fault?....... not catagorically.
Do we have an effect on the planet?.... undoubtedly
Is it as big as an effect as some wish you believe? (al gore and other political types)...... maybe... but probably not.
Do we have a duty to try and do something about it?.... yes we should try and limit our affect on the planet but we must tread carefully....
"look china, i know weve had our industrial revolution but now we THINK it has an effect on the climate we would like you to stop having yours...
i know its unfair but think about mother nature".... its just not going to happen.
In summary, we do affect the climate, by how much.... well theres a lot of debate on that and A LOT of bias statistics and information remember most
statistics can be shown both ways.
As a radio DJ said once... if we are actually having an effect on the climate then there is nothing we can really do about it. The level we produce as
a country is a drop in the ocean to china/india/etc and theyre only going to produce more. so if it is our fault, dont worry about it, theres nothing
you can do just sit pack and enjoy the party while it lasts...... (not totally in line with my own opinion btw)
quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
FFS lads.
All I said was, don't you think it's a bit chilly this winter
^^^^^^^
Sorry flak monkey didnt read yours before i wrote mine... sounds like were singing from the same sheet
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Vostok-ice-core-p
etit.png
Ice core data
[Edited on 22/12/09 by Findlay234]
I don't have a problem with any pending disaster for mankind as I think we need a right good clear-out anyway. I do, however, get a little weepy
about the plight of Polar Bears!
I like Polar Bears I do!
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I don't have a problem with any pending disaster for mankind as I think we need a right good clear-out anyway. I do, however, get a little weepy about the plight of Polar Bears!
I like Polar Bears I do!
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
Man is so arrogant that they THINK we can control the climate.
quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
No one is arguing that the temperature of the earth has fluctuated widly over the years - simply, this is the first time when we have fabricated evidence to show it is us making this change.
quote:
Originally posted by Findlay234
As a radio DJ said once... if we are actually having an effect on the climate then there is nothing we can really do about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Findlay234
The level we produce as a country is a drop in the ocean to china/india/etc and theyre only going to produce more.
quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
However, the levels of CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere are totally unprecedented for many thousands of years. These are warming the Earth and masking the natural cycles (e.g. the mentioned ice age we are apparently heading towards).
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I don't have a problem with any pending disaster for mankind as I think we need a right good clear-out anyway. I do, however, get a little weepy about the plight of Polar Bears!
I like Polar Bears I do!
na their just savage seal murderers
Central England Temperature series
From the Wikipedia article.....which specific piece of data indicates we are all doomed ? Maybe the hottest summer being 1976 (which I remember as we
had a drought followed by a very hard winter) or the coolest year being 1740.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_England_temperature
HOTTEST
* The hottest year in the sequence was 2006 with a mean temperature of 10.82°C, a notable jump on the previous record, a tie between 1990 and 1999
with a mean of 10.63°C[3]
* The warmest spring (March, April, May) was in 1893 with a mean of 10.20°C, breaking the previous record of 9.73°C set in 1779.
* The hottest summer (June, July, August) was in 1976 with a mean of 17.77°C, breaking the previous record of 17.60°C set in 1826.
* The warmest autumn (September, October, November) was in 2006 with a mean of 12.62°C, breaking the previous record of 11.80°C set in 1730.
* The mildest winter (December, January, February) was in 1869 with a mean of 6.77°C, breaking the previous record of 6.53°C set in 1834.
* The mildest January was in 1916 with a mean of 7.5°C, breaking the previous record of 7.3°C set in 1796
* The mildest February was in 1779 with a mean of 7.9°C, breaking the previous record of 6.8°C set in 1739
* The warmest March was in 1957 with a mean of 9.2°C, breaking the previous record of 9.1°C set in 1938
* The warmest April was in 2007 with a mean of 11.2°C, breaking the previous record of 10.6°C set in 1865
* The warmest May was in 1833 with a mean of 15.1°C, breaking the previous record of 13.8°C set in 1758
* The hottest June was in 1846 with a mean of 18.2°C, breaking the previous record of 18.0°C set in 1676
* The hottest July was in 2006 with a mean of 19.7°C, breaking the previous record of 19.5°C set in 1983. July 2006 was also the hottest month in
the series
* The hottest August was in 1995 with a mean of 19.2°C, breaking the previous record of 18.7°C set in 1975
* The warmest September was in 2006 with a mean of 16.8°C, breaking the record of 16.6°C set in 1729.
* The warmest October was in 2001 with a mean of 13.3°C, breaking the previous record of 13.0°C set in 1969
* The warmest November was in 1994 with a mean of 10.1°C, breaking the previous record of 9.5°C set in 1818
* The mildest December was in 1974 and 1934 with a mean of 8.1°C, breaking the previous record of 7.7°C set in 1852
COLDEST
* The coldest year was 1740 at a mean 6.84 °C.
* The coldest ever month was January 1795 with a mean temperature of -3.1°C.
* Despite the fact that 6 new hottest recorded months have been set in the last 15 years, 60 years have passed since the last time a coldest month
record was broken, the coldest February in 1947 (mean temperature -1.9°C), breaking a record set in 1895.
* The coldest winter (December, January, February) was in 1684 with a mean of -1.17°C. The devastating winter centred on January 1963 was the 3rd
coldest (mean -0.33°C).
* The coldest summer was in 1725 with a mean of 13.10°C.
* Four months still have records that were set in the 17th century (March, May, June and September).
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
However, the levels of CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere are totally unprecedented for many thousands of years. These are warming the Earth and masking the natural cycles (e.g. the mentioned ice age we are apparently heading towards).
Could you ask her why the temperature changes do not track CO2 levels without completely mangling the data, or why the other climate effects that can be found in peer reviewed journals are simply being ignored?
Yes, climate has changed before, it always has and always will - what is different this time is the RATE of change. It is MUCH faster now than would
be the case if nature was taking it's normal course (unless we had a MASSIVE volcanic event or got hit by a meteorite).
And knowbody is arguing that the planet will survive humans probably short time on it, it will as will most other forms of life. But we are in at
serious risk of buggering up our civilisations as we know it. So yes, there will be rats and cockroaches and most plants etc etc around whatever we
do, but whether there will be a nice human civilisation like we know it now (or better) for our kids and their kids is a very different story, our way
of life is very fragile indeed.
Well put Jasper.....
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
I remember when I were a lad, being told by my primary school teacher that it was dangerous to walk out onto the ice that was on the sea in Swansea bay! That would have been around 1963...
Interestingly, even though it was VERY cold for quite a few weeks, cars and buses were still moving around the town.
The problem in the UK is that we're just not used to snow - other countries that get it every winter have developed techniques for dealing with it. For example, in some parts of Scandinavia they don't grit the roads - they just go over with a snow plough to move the bulk of it. Cars are expected/obliged to have winter tyres, and know how to drive in those conditions. I believe that fitting snow chains forms part of the driving test in some regions...
. I remember that fondly. I lived down at Bognor Regis ( where I was born). The snow was wonderfully deep (NOT as bad as
'49' I'm told tho). My mum took me for a winter walk down to the sea front. She even let me play (near to her on the snow on the beach
(stones). Unfortunately it/I came unstuck when I found out that I was actually playing on the snow, on the ice, OVER the sea. Thankfully it
wasn't deep, about a foot (the water that is) as I then went through the ice and my mum had to come and get me (only 4 at the time). The summer
later was also I bellieve very hot (got bad sunburn all over apart from where my trunks were). The big problem is with an arguement like this, by the time the climate change lobby gets to say 'I told you so' it'll be too late and what's left of us will be hiding out in some hovel somewhere dreaming of the good old days of electricity and cars and central heating!!
quote:
why the other climate effects that can be found in peer reviewed journals are simply being ignored?
was the climate stable for the millions of years before the arrival of homosapien folk?
I was led to believe we have had a few ice ages and thaws inbetween. is it a bit far fetched to picture a pteranadon or stegosaurus sat at the
controll desk of a coal fired power station or petrol refinary?
climate change is a natural event and has been going on since long before we arrived and i'm fairly sure will continue long after we are gone.
but until we are gone, we will do what we need to to adapt. we are the most intelegent species to set foot on earth and we have thrived.
I would also question the sea level rise claims. when i have a drink with ice in it and the ice melts, the contents have never spilled over the sides
of my glass. why should our oceans be significantly different?
alternatives will be found for the internal combustion engine when the oil runs out. nuclear power stations will become more popular and the wind
turbines that are popping up around our coast will become a more common site, giving rise to an increase to our depleating fish stocks by providing a
"nursery" area for vulnerable young fish that the trawlers cannot get to.
in short, we will be fine for generations to come. humans can adapt and overcome most problems.
My god, there are SO many things wrong with this argument I don't even know where to start....
Anybody else want a go???? I'm off home now .....
quote:
Originally posted by skinned knuckles
I would also question the sea level rise claims. when i have a drink with ice in it and the ice melts, the contents have never spilled over the sides of my glass. why should our oceans be significantly different?
my theory..its the planets natural warming and cooling cycle...
i remember worse weather back in 87 i think....
maybe its all the hot air coming from the poloticians?
So a quick resume of our findings thus far:
Yes - climate change is a natural thing for the Earth.
Yes - modern lifestyle is probably quickening the process.
Yes - seals murder fish.
quote:
Originally posted by skinned knuckles
was the climate stable for the millions of years before the arrival of homosapien folk?
I was led to believe we have had a few ice ages and thaws inbetween. is it a bit far fetched to picture a pteranadon or stegosaurus sat at the controll desk of a coal fired power station or petrol refinary?
climate change is a natural event and has been going on since long before we arrived and i'm fairly sure will continue long after we are gone.
but until we are gone, we will do what we need to to adapt. we are the most intelegent species to set foot on earth and we have thrived.
I would also question the sea level rise claims. when i have a drink with ice in it and the ice melts, the contents have never spilled over the sides of my glass. why should our oceans be significantly different?
alternatives will be found for the internal combustion engine when the oil runs out. nuclear power stations will become more popular and the wind turbines that are popping up around our coast will become a more common site, giving rise to an increase to our depleating fish stocks by providing a "nursery" area for vulnerable young fish that the trawlers cannot get to.
in short, we will be fine for generations to come. humans can adapt and overcome most problems.
There are significant number of zealots on either side of this 'debate' with the scientific community passing off computer predictions as
scientific fact....which it isn't. This is the greatest job creation scheme in the history of the world.
Regardless of if I believe in 'Climate Change' or not (and, for the record. I don't, I believe it will be consigned to the same
historical rubbish bin as Eugenics) there is an overriding issue which we will all have to face up to in the end.....
There are too many people...and we are increasing the population globally to an increasing rate. Because of our scientific advances we are able to
stop diseases like Smallpox and reduce infant mortality rates. We are all living longer...but we are still producing children at the old, disease
riddled, rates. This increased population needs more energy & other natural resources (water and food). Unless we reduce the worlds growth in
population it doesn't matter a rat's arse what we do about "climate change" it will not make any difference.
The population of the UK was a stable (ish) 56-57 Million of most of the time since the 1960s until the late 1990s. We are now at 61Million and
climbing. The recent immigrants to this country have many more children per family than the average om the UK and we will see population rise to 70+
Million before long. Regardless of what we do on CO2 emmissions we are fighting a loosing battle. Be prepared for wars over basic natural resources
(Water, Food and various minerals) especially as the Oil runs out.
And finally......
The only way for the human race to save this planet is for us all to......................
Get the heck off of it and colonise Space.
But then the politicians and scientists will say we are killing space, backed by some specialist advisor, they will then tax us to death again. Just
to justify there existence.
And in answer to the original question, this is just like I remember winters used to be. Nothing special.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
There are significant number of zealots on either side of this 'debate' with the scientific community passing off computer predictions as scientific fact....which it isn't. This is the greatest job creation scheme in the history of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
There are significant number of zealots on either side of this 'debate' with the scientific community passing off computer predictions as scientific fact....which it isn't. This is the greatest job creation scheme in the history of the world.
This is the one that always makes me laugh, the argument that 'there's scientists on both side of the argument with equally valid facts and figures'.
Sorry, but this really isn't true - the VAST majority of climatologists and other related scientists all agree that human actions over the last 100 years are having a very significant effect on the worlds climate.
Unfortunately, there is a significant number of people who won't believe these experts or don't want to believe them for their own personal reasons (usually as it has a negative impact on the way they lead their lives or the lives of the people they govern).
Only hard proof will be enough for them, and by then it will be too late to do anything about it. It still does amaze me how many seemingly educated people stick their heads in the sand on this one.
And yes, humans may well come up with ways of combating the worse effects, but it will be the people in the richer countries who will benefit from this, and those in poorer countries - many of whom had very little impact on climate change in the first place, will be the ones to suffer - those living in flood plains in Bangladesh, or in already arid regions of Africa.
The most effective tool against global warming has got to be the condom.
There is a lot of divided opinion in the scientific community. Some like to say there isnt, but there really is. However those who are seen as being
against the idea are generally suppressed whilst those that are for it get all the air time.
I have a copy of an interesting report compiled by a group of scientists (several 1000 of them), well respected in their fields, giving their own
opinions as to whether or not global warming is affected by human activity or not. Its a very interesting read. I will try and find it (on my pc at
work) tomorrow and upload it.
In the mean time, this and the links in it are rather interesting reading too
http://www.climatecheck.org/Notes_on_climate_change.pdf
By no means a peer reviewed paper, but interesting nontheless.
One final thing:
Global temps on average have actually fallen since 2000. Not widely publicised, but there have been some rather interesting articles in my IET mags
about it giving both sides of the argument. Well presented and balanced.
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
There is a lot of divided opinion in the scientific community. Some like to say there isnt, but there really is. However those who are seen as being against the idea are generally suppressed whilst those that are for it get all the air time.
This is the file I was looking for:
http://kitcarservices.co.uk/Global%20Warming.pdf
400 scientists giving their views. I know its compiled by the US senate, but look past this into the info and it is quite interesting. There are also
links within it to their peer reviewed articles.
There are plenty of peer reviewed articles and papers available, but they dont get a lot of publicity. Like I said there have been some very
interesting articles giving a balanced view of both sides of the argument in the IET (Institute of Engineering and Technology - formerly IMechE and
IEE) magazines this year, the upshot was you could argue it either way. All written by climate experts well reviewed before being published by such an
organisation.
[Edited on 23/12/09 by flak monkey]
[Edited on 23/12/09 by flak monkey]
Here's a fun game:
All those adamant that man's actions will cause unprecedented changes (e.g. rising sea levels, adverse weather, failing crops, general chaos)
answer the following:
1. Do you have oil/gas/fossil fuel fired central heating still?
2. Do you own a massive TV?
3. Are you still eating meat?
4. Is a large percentage of your food eaten hot (instead of eating a largely raw diet to save energy on boiling/heating water/food)
5. Do you drive a petrol/diesel car or have more than one car?
6. Do you go on holiday?
7. Do you run a fridge/freezer over winter?
Obviously the answer to the above will be 'no' to all questions, as you'll be doing your bit as best you can. Otherwise it'd be
good old hypocrisy. Obviously you wouldn't be making a change, of say, just 10%, you'll be going all out.
"oh but I couldn't give all those things up! I need to go to work!" what's more important... a job or the potential obliteration
of humanity?
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
Here's a fun game:
All those adamant that man's actions will cause unprecedented changes (e.g. rising sea levels, adverse weather, failing crops, general chaos) answer the following:
1. Do you have oil/gas/fossil fuel fired central heating still?
2. Do you own a massive TV?
3. Are you still eating meat?
4. Is a large percentage of your food eaten hot (instead of eating a largely raw diet to save energy on boiling/heating water/food)
5. Do you drive a petrol/diesel car or have more than one car?
6. Do you go on holiday?
7. Do you run a fridge/freezer over winter?
Obviously the answer to the above will be 'no' to all questions, as you'll be doing your bit as best you can. Otherwise it'd be good old hypocrisy. Obviously you wouldn't be making a change, of say, just 10%, you'll be going all out.
"oh but I couldn't give all those things up! I need to go to work!" what's more important... a job or the potential obliteration of humanity?
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
This is the file I was looking for:
http://kitcarservices.co.uk/Global%20Warming.pdf
400 scientists giving their views. I know its compiled by the US senate, but look past this into the info and it is quite interesting. There are also links within it to their peer reviewed articles.
I think your mind was made up before you opened it to be honest. Of course its biased to those against the idea, but then most is biased to those for
the idea.
There also a lot of people cited who DO have a background in climatology and there are a lot of linked papers from it which make interesting
reading.
ETA I would say the vast majority of those sources actually do have some experience. Its certainly the minority that you pointed out.
[Edited on 23/12/09 by flak monkey]
So the US Senate, has searched the globe, for any credible sources who are willing to go on record as refuting the accepted thinking. And that list of
400 is the best that they could come up with? Don't get me wrong, it is interesting reading, so please forgive my rant, but this is just
crazy....
To understand why Inhofe's claims are fundamentally wrong, consider the following scenario: imagine a child is diagnosed with cancer. Who are his
parents going to take him to in order to determine the best course of treatment?
Most people would take the child to a specialist. Not just someone with a PhD in a technical subject, but an actual medical doctor. And not just any
medical doctor, but someone who was a specialist in cancer. And not just any specialist in cancer, but someone who was a specialist in pediatric
cancer. And, if possible, not just any pediatric oncologist, but someone who specialized in that particular type of cancer.
Expertise matters. Not everyone's opinion is equally valid (my own included!).
Do you honestly beleive that the US senate would choose to include such a random group of people if they had another way? Quite simply, there just
aren't that many people out there with expert knowledge in a relavent area, who disagree with the majority and who are prepared to put their
professional opinion in the public domaine.
And Flak - my mind was not and is still not made up, I am just calling it like I see it. There are some great points made in the report, but I am
simply questioning the validity of some of the sources. It is a report written with the sole intention of discrediting others - this is hardly a
balanced view.
[Edited on 23/12/09 by twybrow]
Like I said, I know its biased, but it provides and interesting list of linked articles and papers, mostly written by knowledgable people, presenting
the other side of the discussion for those who want to read them.
Agreed not all the sources are ideal, but there are a vast number who are experienced in the field.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think we agree to be honest. We take whatever information we can muster, but we must be aware of the limitations of the data source.
"When examined more closely, however, the Inhofe report was an amateurish fraud. Those 400 prominent scientists included more than 80 who had
received funding either directly or indirectly from the oil and coal industries and more than 90 who had no scientific expertise in climate science,
along with 49 retired scientists and 44 television weathermen." Sounds like someone was scraping the bottom of the barrel to me....
Yep, hence why you do have to be careful about blindly reading things.
Even if you take out the questionable sources, there's still alot of interesting reading material.
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Yep, hence why you do have to be careful about blindly reading things.
Even if you take out the questionable sources, there's still alot of interesting reading material.
quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
The discssusion wasn't on our personal commitments to reducing our energy consumption.
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
The discssusion wasn't on our personal commitments to reducing our energy consumption.
oh cool that's convenient. i mean internet threads have always stayed 100% on topic in the past XD
Oh okay. In terms of climate change I believe that man's actions are tipping the scales. I'm not trying to provoke a reaction. I want to
know what people are doing to make a difference.
If I got an illness that was fatal without treatment then I'd take the antibiotics/treatment. I wouldn't say "oh I should really take
it" and not.
Trouble is, what we do on a personal level has such a tiny impact, even the UK as a whole is a drop in the ocean compared to China/India etc.
I think as long as we do what's sensible, recycling, energy saving appliances/bulbs etc, more fuel efficient cars etc then it's ok, and
it's something we should do even if we weren't affecting the climate, just to save money and resources.
quote:
Originally posted by twybrow
This is my answer:
it does track it....!
I'll see if she can reply too!
Just like in real, face to face conversations, the original topic is sometimes twisted and even forgotten, as people move around a discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by RK
Just like in real, face to face conversations, the original topic is sometimes twisted and even forgotten, as people move around a discussion.
Yeah, I do hope it goes away, because for me, I can't tell if my car is running like crap because of the cold weather or just running like crap in general, and won't be able to confirm it til May!!
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Sorry I didn't word my query very well...it's well known there is a correlation between CO2 levels and mean temperature, but what I want to see is proof of causality.
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Sorry I didn't word my query very well...it's well known there is a correlation between CO2 levels and mean temperature, but what I want to see is proof of causality.
how could you possibly prove it beyond doubt? You know how hard it was to 'prove' the link between smoking and cancer, indeed im not sure they have yet, beyond statistics.
You will not get 100% proof, so you have to decide if a majority verdict will do you. If it wont, you have to ask yourself why you are so keen not to believe it?
quote:
Originally posted by t.j.
Aha! So it's a believe= religion....
You know how it works:
Separation of church and state
So you think 350 years back the same equipment was used? And IF the climate really changed.
- Why not save the forest in Brasil.
- Help the poor so they can produce own food (and O2).
- etc
No tax, invest in our own researchers and CO2 trading that helpes.