What is the consensus of the Locostbuilders on leaving/staying in the EU ?

There's so much wishy washy propaganda from both sides and little fact...rather unsure that the deal Cameron has struck will be worth the velum it's written on!

The EU would be avery different place if the Home Counties had actually made some effort to take part in the decision making from the start.

If the UK leaves the EU it will become almost certain that the UK will break up.

It's a similar situation to the Scottish independence vote we had last year in my opinion. For me, I reckon I get the best of both worlds being both British and Scottish, I kind of feel the same about being in Europe. I'm in.

I'm out!! Looks what happened to our country since Thatcher took over!!

I can't make a decision as i currently have no facts to base it on.

Once all the BS settles i can start to get an understanding of what consequences are off leaving compared to what we have.

As for this negotiations from this week, they will mean 0. Foreign media are barely reporting due to tiny changes Cameron is asking for.

An absolute circus.

I'd really like to stay in a reformed EU, but that's never going to happen.

I need to see the details of whatever deal has been reached but I suspect it won't be enough to stop me voting to leave the EU. That will probably give Sturgeon and Salmond an excuse to go back on their "once in a generation" independence vote pledge which could result in a UK break up. Quite honestly, if that happens my family and business will relocate to England, probably rural Yorkshire. I still don't understand why the SNP want to trade UK membership for EU membership as they would just be a smaller fish in a bigger pond. Crazy!

Interesting times ahead...

I don't think we have the slightest idea what being out will look like
I have a very deep fear that the general public will vote out just because of the migrant crisis confusing EU free movement with non EU migration due to the Middle East crisis.
One thing is for sure, if we leave the French will be giving free tickets to migrants and the jungle camp will move to British shores
The next issue will be that British produce will suddenly not be compliant with EU regulations
The list will go on and on

I'm in because I cannot image what out will realy look like

Start imagining.....

We are leaving. If that means the Scots get another vote and decide to leave the UK, so be it, sorry to see you go and all that. The UK government and UK laws need to sovereign over this country and not a lot of nonsense coming from Brussels.

The things that worry me are the economics of it all.
Any exports to the EU would attract a 10% import duty, so factories making stuff here that is sold in europe would have to move there, taking jobs. Lots of them.
Then there is the American issue. Our "special" relationship is more one-way that we would like to imagine. If we lose our influence in Europe, we are of rather less use to the Americans.
And just think, we will go from being part of a global super-power to a rather smaller independent economy where we will have to attract investment and business by doing whatever those companies want. That is a 2 edged sword, yes, we can sell ourselves, but at what cost to us?
Lastly, anybody who thinks we will get a great trade deal with the EU is mad. If we leave, they WILL make us pay, And the EU will have by far the stronger hand.

and we will make them pay to sell their BMW, Mercs & Audi. The UK is a very large market for the EU.

Very true.
But what I was suggesting is that all those nissans, toyotas, (mini?) and other car manufacturers are likely to move into mainland europe to avoid the 10% charge. That far outweighs german car drives having to pay more.
In fact many good we buy may well have a price hike as these import duties tend to be tat for tat. Not helpful to the consumer.

I think the result will depend on what part of the population will vote, not on the propaganda pumped out by both sides, if you are old enough to remember how the uk traded before we entered the common market, because that's what it was originally called, and that part of the population votes on mass,then the result could be out, if the younger people get be bothered to vote then we could stay in.
People with the most to loose/gain will shout loudest telling us it will be shangrila which way suits them.
A example of how different things affect different people is as follows, last week I went to get my barnet cut at the normal place and knowing that the barber is a angler I asked how the fishing was going woo hoo that hit a nerve, he went on to tell me that there are naff all fish left in the rivers/ lakes due to the Eastern Europeans netting all the fish out ( they eat fresh water fish) as there are around 6m anglers in the country, that will be a mass out vote, are they right or wrong who knows.
No doubt a business man will counter will a tail of how he trades only with Europe and leaving will put x amount of people out of work, then that will be countered by a worker who has lost his job due to a European company taking the work .
The ins will say we have had peace for the longest time ever in Europe, while the outs will say the Germans have got European domination without a bullet being fired.
Both sides will court the media and have been for some time to get them onside. Will I as an employee( I work in construction so am not really affected )be any better off which ever way the vote goes, that I doubt very much.
As I'm a cynical bastard and believe no politician ever tells the truth, I will buy a big bag of snacks, sit back, and watch the biggest bun fight this country will ever seen.

Shooter

I really hope we stay in. Back in the 80's I worked extensively in Europe and became one of Maggie's little children. I used to earn a fortune ! I accepted that I was a foreigner and worked really hard at getting accepted. If we drop out I feel we will become a third world country, no one will want to know, why? well we haven't got a lot left to offer have we. We sacrificed everything to believe that Blair and his cronies knew what they were doing ! We dont build ships, we dont own our own power structures, all the gas and electric is now foreign owned, even the banks are going abroad despite being told the opposite. This country has become reliant on hand outs and stay at home culture. We can only survive if we change that culture and all get back to work, everyone should pull together, but I doubt that most "will be bovvered" it doesn't affect me, well I think it will affect everyone. Tata has made it clear, its off ! Honda and Nissan next?

I'm in. Trade with the EU will become a lot harder if we jump ship. International companies like the stability of the EU so if they move out of the UK then the jobs go too. Yes we have a lot of foreign workers but their kids are going to settle in and take on some of our values, I see it at my sons local school, it takes time.

Being selfish and looking to retire in 8 years I have a big mortgage and cannot afford a 2% hike in interest rates so will vote based upon that.

I just need someone to tell me what will happen to them if we go?

The idea of the "Common Market" which we joined was just that. A market where all countries could trade within. A simple concept, which has now morphed into the nightmare we have now. The EU is a dangerous thing, they have supported expansionism to try to restrict the influence of Russia in the Eastern States. They have become dictatorial over what any member state can do effectively wanting control of everything.

We hear all the rhetoric about jobs, but the reality is that they will not put a trade barrier upon us as we import more from the EU than we export, so they would lose out. It would also allow us free trade in the world with whoever we wish. Other countries want our products and other countries do very well outside the EU, China, Taiwan, India Australia to name a few.

And think about this, as The UK is the second highest net contributor to the EU how will they manage without our contribution? Poland got £16,7 billion last from the EU for example. These other countries cannot make up the shortfall in the budgets. What would our country look like if instead of funding other countries infrastructure projects we funded ours properly?

With that in mind we should have been dictating the terms, not asking like Oliver Twist, without us the EU will fall, they know that but they also know our leaders have no backbone.

Immigration is another key area. In Australia, they take in who they need regardless of where they come from, no one dictates what they do as they are sovereign. We are forced to take whoever has a passport regardless of worth to our economy, so long as it is an EU one.

My view is simple, we should vote to leave. This will force them to come to us to make the conditions right for us to stay, which we could then decide upon.

If we vote to stay now, the EU will take everything they can from us to redistribute elsewhere. They will have a mandate to force through anything they wish and it will be payback time.

Nothing i've heard on the news makes me thing there's any benefit what so ever staying in. I'm out.

Ian

I'm Out

They told us it was going to be the end of the world if we didn't adopt the Euro
Factories were going to close and major players were going to transfer their dealings overseas

Nonsense.....

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Originally posted by britishtrident
The EU would be avery different place if the Home Counties had actually made some effort to take part in the decision making from the start.

If the UK leaves the EU then it will become almost certain that the UK will break up.

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Eu without the UK doesn't work which is why they didn't just say p*** off. Most of the issues about companies moving could be sorted by adjusting corporation tax to make UK an attractive base for true multinationals and tariffs go both ways for most countries - most European countries would lose by reciprocal tariffs. Personally I think the economics, security and social aspects say come out but I would probably prefer to stay in!

Eu without the UK doesn't work which is why they didn't just say p*** off. Most of the issues about companies moving could be sorted by adjusting corporation tax to make UK an attractive base for true multinationals and tariffs go both ways for most countries - most European countries would lose by reciprocal tariffs. Personally I think the economics, security and social aspects say come out but I would probably prefer to stay in!

I do not know enough about the in or out stuff

But if we opt to leave the EU, and it means the borders are closed for any non UK qualified residents

then lets leave, and become an island again

As an interested bystander, the language everyone uses, interests me. Brits say "they" when referring to the EU. But as far as i know, every country gets adequate representation in the EU. How comes UK's representatives are not making enough noise when new laws are being made ( and maybe veto'ing the move). To my simple mind, either some people have seen the job as a jolly or the government intentionally ignored what was going on.

In my mind the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, there is not point making the decision with emotions/patriotism.

Something that interest me if the UK leaves the EU is Standards. Are we going to go back to all the British standards as opposed to the EN one? I have tried to purchase equipment from america for work and the ball ache/ retrofit involved to attain compliance can be frustrating over a simple paperwork

Something else to consider is that a lot of multi-national companies in the UK are owned by european parent companies. I will hazard a guess at 50-60%. If this trade becomes constrained, I don't think the size of the UK market on its own will attract that much further investment.

All I am saying is, this needs a lot of thinking about before a rash decision is made.

definitely out

out for me too,

I also think there isn't enough info from either side but I always try and ask myself this:

We pay in £19 billion and get £10 billion out, so what am I getting for the other £9billion?

The 2 most talked about reasons to stay in are jobs and security, yet neither are linked to the EU anyway. We have some shared info with the USA and they arnt in, security should be controlled by us on our borders. And the job issues I cant see as negative anyway, we have more buying power from the EU then selling power and will continue to trade as we do now but with more protests from the French on the crossings.

Only issue I have is the instability of all nations if we leave until it all settles down, currencies may jump about a bit but its just as likely to favour us then to damage us. So with stock markets already jumpy it might make it more of a roller coaster ride for a while.

Get out now, ride the coaster and get back to what both my granddads had fought for.

I don't think you'll ever really find out the full story from either side as it will be extremists shouting.

I do think we'd get more out of the EU if our representation in the EU was more united as the UK has a huge percentage of the EU population.

I think the only way we'll know what its like to not be in the EU is to leave which is a frightening prospect and personally I can't see it being any better out than it is now.

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Originally posted by mark chandler
Being selfish and looking to retire in 8 years I have a big mortgage and cannot afford a 2% hike in interest rates so will vote based upon that.

I just need someone to tell me what will happen to them if we go?

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We belong to an organisation which we give nigh on £20Billion and who have not had signed off accounts in 30 years....how is this sane?

I would be all up for leaving if I had faith in our political system to make legal and logical laws..... im not sure they are... so perhaps having some control (all be it a bit one sided) from the EU might be sensible... but I just dont have the facts, nor I suspect will I ever!

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Originally posted by bi22le
I can't make a decision as i currently have no facts to base it on.

Once all the BS settles i can start to get an understanding of what consequences are off leaving compared to what we have.

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I see the referendum threat as just a tool to get the eu to renegotiate the terms. I dont think we'll leave. We need the eu unfortunately. The eu needs us (I think)
If cameron wanted us out he would have had the vote without trying to get a better deal surely? And now rush into a vote so soon?
Nah, we'll stay I reckon. Must have a read to see what he's agreed on. Will be a stay for me anyway

Im even starting to think alex salmond never wanted to win his neverendumb (correct term for scottish independence vote) he got his tax powers (lets face it, hes still running the snp, sturgeon is only there because he couldnt be first minister and mp) and wont do anything with the powers he demanded, he just likes to keep up the grievance politics

If they'd won he'd have no reason to still be doing what he does, sometimes winning can be shooting yourself in the foot.

Brussels has already decided that my vacuum cleaner wattage was too high !

What next, reducing a pint to 450ml

Interesting Poll results. Out in the lead but don't knows could swing it.

Whatever your view on this, please make sure you cast your vote as this will be the most important vote in the next 20 years (unless you are in Scotland where you have a "once in a lifetime" vote every 5 years)

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Originally posted by jeffw
Interesting Poll results. Out in the lead but don't knows could swing it.

Whatever your view on this, please make sure you cast your vote as this will be the most important vote in the next 20 years (unless you are in Scotland where you have a "once in a lifetime" vote every 5 years)

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have a genuine rofl

All down to the simplest of things if we pull out will we Joe public be better off nobody's persuaded me of that. There is no doubt the city wants rid of the euro they make billions through foreign exchange we were all told the euro would fail it hasn't. We all talk of patriotism France is in Europe and they are far more french than we act British. The french buy french goods we by BMW and Merc. If we pull out and in 2 years we dont like it we will be voting to go back in. we might be better off having a look at what else is going on in the country as Cameron could be using this to keep our minds off other things like Osborne missing all his financial targets. The Great Britain we all talk about would have been in Europe running the show not whinging on the side lines but that Great Britain had statesmen and leaders not soft pillocks lining up for their directorships at the bank. So i am a dont know and will be until somebody comes up with some honest answers and facts fancy i will have a long wait.

I'm for out.
It's bad enough getting the elected government to do what they promised without them having to answer to a higher power. The EU seemed a good idea a few years ago, but it's turned into bloatware, a bureaucratic monster. In my opinion the EU should focus on trade and not dictate other government policies. Lets leave the EU try it on our own for a few years, rejoin if it don't work out.

We've never bothered actually participating in the EU, and now we moan because it hasn't turned out the way we want it... Whilst I think there's plenty wrong with it, it's a solid idea in principle and there is an unprecedented appetite for reform.

We've either got to leave or actually participate; no more half arseing. Personally I'm for staying; I think that on the whole the EU is a good thing.

Also as a side note, the EU gets blamed for a lot of stuff which it is not responsible for - the Tories decision not to save the Redcar steel plant for instance.

Those who intend to vote to stay, a quick thought for you.

The EU lives by expanding so the next logical member will be Turkey and some of the ex-Soviet republics. Are you still up for staying?

If it stops young men having to fight and die in pointless conflicts i am all for other country's being brought into the EU after all thats why the Eu was formed in the first place. Mllions died for the peace we now have.

Do we really think that the brave folk who fought for our way of life would be proud of what we have now though ?


I've no problem with folk coming to live in this country *If* they are going to contribute, but I have an issue if they think they are going to get something for nothing.
If you don't put anything in, you shouldn't take anything out...


With regards the EU, We seem to put a lot more into it than we get from it
Imagine putting £500 per month into an investment and then at the end of the year the bank turns around and says thanks for that but you can't have it all back and its only worth 60% of what you've put in

You'd be looking elsewhere I'd have thought ?



This debate will run and run BUT I hope that this time folk will actually get up off their arses and VOTE

If you can't be bothered to vote then you loose the right to moan at the outcome in my book

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Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
We've never bothered actually participating in the EU, and now we moan because it hasn't turned out the way we want it... Whilst I think there's plenty wrong with it, it's a solid idea in principle and there is an unprecedented appetite for reform.

We've either got to leave or actually participate; no more half arseing. Personally I'm for staying; I think that on the whole the EU is a good thing.

Also as a side note, the EU gets blamed for a lot of stuff which it is not responsible for - the Tories decision not to save the Redcar steel plant for instance.

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The only way it would have worked is if the UK government had jumped in with both feet and took it seriously - like Germany and France - but, as usual, our government (all parties) just prevaricated and performed a string of half-measures that were worse than doing nothing.

What makes it even worse is the way we treated our long-established trading partners (e.g. Canada, Australia and New Zealand) when we joined up - the chances of re-establishing those ties are just about zero, I reckon.

I'll probably vote to stay in regardless, but with a lot of misgivings.

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Originally posted by SteveWallace

quote:

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Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
We've never bothered actually participating in the EU, and now we moan because it hasn't turned out the way we want it... Whilst I think there's plenty wrong with it, it's a solid idea in principle and there is an unprecedented appetite for reform.

We've either got to leave or actually participate; no more half arseing. Personally I'm for staying; I think that on the whole the EU is a good thing.

Also as a side note, the EU gets blamed for a lot of stuff which it is not responsible for - the Tories decision not to save the Redcar steel plant for instance.

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+1

I was chairman of an EU wide business network for a while (a small part of my day job really, not as grand as it sounds) that looked at EU regulations affecting our business sectors. It was obvious that the rest of the EU member states were far more engaged in the policy making process than the UK. They took the role of MEP's far more seriously than we did and understood the policy making and negotiating process better.

I wonder how many of us could actually name our MEP's or give a clear description of where the balance of power and political alliances are at EU level. We cannot expect to have influence in the process if we don't even understand it or participate properly.

Also, we demonise much of the regulation that comes out of Europe and assume that we wouldn't have any regulation without them. That's nonsense, for sure we would want to amend some of it, but much of it we would have ended up developing for ourselves anyway.

It seems to me that the whole renegotiation of our membership terms has been a waste of time and has not achieved very much at all. No doubt the stay in campaign will claim that its deal changing, but I suspect that most of us will make a decision on which way to vote regardless of the last couple of months.

On balance, I'm just in favour of staying in, but I do worry that we will loose all negotiating power after a yes vote in the referendum and that there will be a certain element of 'payback time' as a result. On the other hand, at least if we left then there will be less excuses for when our politicians get it wrong and it will be an end of the stupid "EU say our sausages are not real sausages..." type Daily Mail headlines.

Finally, if the Scottish population vote a different way to the English then there will inevitably be a big push for another referendum on independence.

Either way, referendum day will be a good stay up with beer and curry night as the results come in.

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Anybody see Greece with Simon Reeve? That was an eye opener to see what the EU has done to Greece. Ok so the Greek government fell for it but now they hate Merkal as she trys to make them pay for what the EU forced on them..

Iceland has recovered from the financial crisis better than most of Europe has. When my wife and I went there on holiday the people we spoke to were very relieved that they had avoided joining the EU. At one point they were going to join just to get the help they needed but in the end they have turned things around by themselves and seem to be going from strength to strength.

I'm fairly undecided on the question myself but I don't believe it would be a disaster if we left political union and continued with trading agreements only. After all, many countries in the EU will very much want to continue to trade with the UK as we are a big importer of european made goods.

I hope by the time I come to place my vote I am better informed on the pros and cons because right now I might as well flip a coin!

European made goods?? Every thing, apart from salad, we have has 'made in China' on it..

Sorry just checked, phone and tablet have Korea on them...

Only thing I'm a bit nervous about the exit is moving to Spain, but there are plenty Russians living there who don't get treated any different.

I'm out, nothing they can say or do will change my mind. Even if Germany invaded we can fight them off again!

This is Great Britian, we have in the past, and can again stand on our own two feet! I wonder what the Queen thinks about it all (even if she is German)

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Originally posted by snapper
I don't think we have the slightest idea what being out will look like
I have a very deep fear that the general public will vote out just because of the migrant crisis confusing EU free movement with non EU migration due to the Middle East crisis.
One thing is for sure, if we leave the French will be giving free tickets to migrants and the jungle camp will move to British shores
The next issue will be that British produce will suddenly not be compliant with EU regulations
The list will go on and on

I'm in because I cannot image what out will realy look like

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Originally posted by coozer
European made goods?? Every thing, apart from salad, we have has 'made in China' on it..

Sorry just checked, phone and tablet have Korea on them...

Only thing I'm a bit nervous about the exit is moving to Spain, but there are plenty Russians living there who don't get treated any different.

I'm out, nothing they can say or do will change my mind. Even if Germany invaded we can fight them off again!

This is Great Britian, we have in the past, and can again stand on our own two feet! I wonder what the Queen thinks about it all (even if she is German)

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" if we take our own route to achieving it you can guarantee it'll cost us more..."

£50,000,000,000 buys a lot of achieving your own, do not forget that people in the Euro zones will still want to purchase from us.

I can clearly remember the year that Spain took the same amount of money out of the EU to pay for its new road network that the UK paid in... Quietest motorway network you will fine, massively over specified for the requirement but if it's 'free' take take take!

I am moving towards out, they cannot make laws specifically against the UK

[Edited on 23/2/16 by mark chandler]

I loved the spin put out today, the news stated that out of the100 top footsie companies asked wether thay would leave the uk if we left the eu " over a third said they would leave" instead of " nearly two thirds would stay" this came about as the polsters hoped the out answer would be 86/100

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Originally posted by mark chandler
" if we take our own route to achieving it you can guarantee it'll cost us more..."

£50,000,000,000 buys a lot of achieving your own, do not forget that people in the Euro zones will still want to purchase from us.

I can clearly remember the year that Spain took the same amount of money out of the EU to pay for its new road network that the UK paid in... Quietest motorway network you will fine, massively over specified for the requirement but if it's 'free' take take take!

I am moving towards out, they cannot make laws specifically against the UK

[Edited on 23/2/16 by mark chandler]

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^^^^
It costs us a lot to stay in, on balance I would say it would be cheaper to stay out and spend the money on our own infrastructure and institutions.

If the pound were to devalue then our goods become cheaper/more attractive in Europe, problem is we do not know what will happen, I am just saying to stay in costs a fortune, £50 billion p.a. is being quoted. You are still paying even if it is through tax

Only 1/3 of footsie 100 answered the poll, most need to have a board meeting before they can put pen to paper or would simply decline to answer.

If they are private companies it's a fair question, if they are answering for the shareholders it's questionable if they should answer at all with the caveat that they should look to what's best for the companies interest.

The people that wanted out in the poll were the private enterprises in the main, people that started their own companies which to my mind are people that know how to succeed instinctively,

Another thing that is swaying me is that the UK special concession was not widely reported in the other countries, the French PM just scoffed and said it was pretty much worthless and would not make any difference which is why he signed in the end. Could just be bravado I suppose?

Still need to be better informed, it is quite convincing either way, safe to stay, a gamble to leave but it could be better? The question is then would it be worse or the same to chance our arm.


[Edited on 23/2/16 by mark chandler]

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Originally posted by mark chandler
^^^^
It costs us a lot to stay in, on balance I would say it would be cheaper to stay out and spend the money on our own infrastructure and institutions.

If the pound were to devalue then our goods become cheaper/more attractive in Europe, problem is we do not know what will happen, I am just saying to stay in costs a fortune, £50 billion p.a. is being quoted. You are still paying even if it is through tax

Only 1/3 of footsie 100 answered the poll, most need to have a board meeting before they can put pen to paper or would simply decline to answer.

If they are private companies it's a fair question, if they are answering for the shareholders it's questionable if they should answer at all with the caveat that they should look to what's best for the companies interest.

The people that wanted out in the poll were the private enterprises in the main, people that started their own companies which to my mind are people that know how to succeed instinctively,

[Edited on 23/2/16 by mark chandler]

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Pinched from another forum but kind of sums up my feelings at the moment

"We started the NHS system. A great idea and able to support the numbers of people that worked. That contributed back into the system to enable it to work. Then after a period of time more and more people came into our system from all over the world. Some work and contribute into the funding system. Many do not work but use the NHS, moved into the country and are supported free.The NHS is an excellent idea, but being over used by many that will never 'put back funding', Just want the service and free. This is why a Fantastic System is struggling.

This reminds me of the EU. When the Common Market was started it was a good idea. As it progressed more and more joined. Many contributed into the EU fund, but too many are taking out of the EU fund. Too many want to live in EU, but will never put back in the funding to make the system work.
Like any 'club' membership you should always have the choice to pay and remain, or leave. When the benefits are not there or the rules change. It becomes not what you first bought into. I feel this is happening to the EU now.

It is time to remove the Takers from the EU to keep the people that Put into the System. This way we would not want to walk away"

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Originally posted by mark chandler
Pinched from another forum but kind of sums up my feelings at the moment

"We started the NHS system. A great idea and able to support the numbers of people that worked. That contributed back into the system to enable it to work. Then after a period of time more and more people came into our system from all over the world. Some work and contribute into the funding system. Many do not work but use the NHS, moved into the country and are supported free.The NHS is an excellent idea, but being over used by many that will never 'put back funding', Just want the service and free. This is why a Fantastic System is struggling.

This reminds me of the EU. When the Common Market was started it was a good idea. As it progressed more and more joined. Many contributed into the EU fund, but too many are taking out of the EU fund. Too many want to live in EU, but will never put back in the funding to make the system work.
Like any 'club' membership you should always have the choice to pay and remain, or leave. When the benefits are not there or the rules change. It becomes not what you first bought into. I feel this is happening to the EU now.

It is time to remove the Takers from the EU to keep the people that Put into the System. This way we would not want to walk away"

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quote:

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Originally posted by mark chandler

I am just saying to stay in costs a fortune, £50 billion p.a. is being quoted. You are still paying even if it is through tax

[Edited on 23/2/16 by mark chandler]

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I,m sure whatever happens we will not see any savings, but at least as a country we shall be able to direct who recieves it.

I see no reason to leave. To those people complaining aboutexcess rules and regulations coming from Brussels - can you actually specify one that affects you? To me, harmonising rules across Europe is a good thing. The small amount of money we pay in overall (13m a day net, or about 25p a day each) is simply wealth redistribution to the poorer states of Europe, which I support too. I also couldn't give a hoot about migration.

What I would say though is that Cameron's deal iswishy washy, it is meant to address the delusions of Daily Heil readers and deals with nothing that is actually a real problem .

We must keep this thread alive, and at the top, as it will affect all of us at some point soon

as for me, confused, as im in, and out, and not sure, not that helps at all

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Originally posted by JoelP
I see no reason to leave. To those people complaining aboutexcess rules and regulations coming from Brussels - can you actually specify one that affects you? To me, harmonising rules across Europe is a good thing. The small amount of money we pay in overall (13m a day net, or about 25p a day each) is simply wealth redistribution to the poorer states of Europe, which I support too. I also couldn't give a hoot about migration.

What I would say though is that Cameron's deal iswishy washy, it is meant to address the delusions of Daily Heil readers and deals with nothing that is actually a real problem .

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I heard that, the biggest market in the world for BMW cars outside Germany itself, is the UK. I also heard that the biggest market in the world for Renault Sport models is the UK, even bigger than France - the French don't buy many petrols. A while back, the Peugeot 206 was the best selling privately bought car in the UK, and it was made here as well. And that's without mentioning the immensely successful marketing drive of Nicole and Papa (Clio), or the unrivalled popularity of the Scenic. Plus, the UK is Europe's biggest market for convertibles (BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, Peugeot, VW).

There's no way the French and Germans will put unaffordable tariffs on our British made Japanese cars, or any of our manufactured goods for that matter, knowing we'd just turn around and bite them right back. WE BUY MORE FROM THEM THAN THEY DO FROM US. The British people are not stupid; project fear will not work. There would inevitably be some import tariffs, but that will still be less than we currently pay to the EU. If we leave, we could receive a net gain.

Join the ERM, they said, you can't survive without it. We joined; we nearly went bankrupt. We got out in a hurry and miraculously recovered! Join the Euro currency, they said, or you'll get left behind. Ireland: bankrupt. Italy, a large manufacturing economy, could have to bailed out. Meanwhile, Norway and Switzerland, who are neither users of the Euro currency nor part of the EU, are somehow flourishing. How on earth could that be???

As you can tell, I'm out, and I won't be motivated by fear. Forgive me for going on a bit. I just wanted you to know why.

Still have not seen enough to take me one way or the other i have allways felt that for the last 30 years we were never really in everybody talks about Great Briton. The Great Briton they are talking about would be in there running the show not just sniping and whining on the side lines our greatest Briton was Churchill he would have been in the front in the middle telling johnny foreigner how its all going to be our politicians cannot run Briton never mind the EU as well they are a laughing stock in europe .