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Are fire doors actually needed for a loft conversion?
smart51 - 8/6/16 at 02:24 PM

We're having a loft conversion done and we're hoping to keep the existing wooden doors with the addition of closers in the edge of the door. The building inspector wants to see fire doors. Do we have to fit fire doors or can we insist on keeping the ones we have? We'll be having marines wired smoke alarms.

Partly we want to keep the doors we like. Partly we want to save a grand on new doors. And I thought closers and alarms were deemed to be safe.

joneh - 8/6/16 at 03:01 PM

You need fire doors on a loft conversion is my understanding. Also, if that's what the inspector has asked for that's what you should fit.

They could fall off after the final inspection at your own risk...

Also, don't pissing the inspector off either as by rights, all doors from the loft to exit need to be firedoors as well!

[Edited on 8/6/16 by joneh]

coozer - 8/6/16 at 03:06 PM

Yes, I had to put 1 hour fire doors at the top of the stairs. Plus each room had to have a fire escape window...

nick205 - 8/6/16 at 03:09 PM

If the inspector is expecting to see fire doors I'd assume you have to fit them. Can you check with the builder or with building control? They may be able to give you actual facts.

loggyboy - 8/6/16 at 03:11 PM

Yep unless you want to fit sprinklers.
Basics of Part B (building regs) is to have 2 routes of escape - in a 2 storey house the principle is if the stairs is blocked by fire , you can jump (in reasonable safety) out of the 1st floor window. (regs even state a minimum size opening and height from ground -(for new build) if this principle is applied).
Anything over 2 storey means you wouldn't/couldnt jump out a window, so there principle is that the 2nd route of escape can be removed, IF the 1 escape route is fire protected. So a fire in any room wouldn't break into the stairs for 30mins (hence 30 min fire doors).

hizzi - 8/6/16 at 04:04 PM

yes you need fire doors and lets be honest chances are your loft conversion is kids bedrooms? why wouldnt you fit them, they are not expensive unless you start with oak or the like, standard fire door blanks are £40 each

loggyboy - 8/6/16 at 04:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
And I thought closers and alarms were deemed to be safe.


Fire doors are rated on the complete package (door/frame/lining) to gain their approval, so there is no real way to 'make a fire door' they have to be an off the shelf approved product. Each manufacturer will have their own route to approval, and the door will need to be installed to suit that requirement, some may not need a new lining or frame, others might, all depends on what was tested when they gained their approval.

Smokey mow - 8/6/16 at 04:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
We're having a loft conversion done and we're hoping to keep the existing wooden doors with the addition of closers in the edge of the door. The building inspector wants to see fire doors. Do we have to fit fire doors or can we insist on keeping the ones we have? We'll be having marines wired smoke alarms.

Partly we want to keep the doors we like. Partly we want to save a grand on new doors. And I thought closers and alarms were deemed to be safe.

The previous requirement for closers IIRC was withdrawn in 2006 and replaced with the current requirements for fire doors to all rooms opening onto the escape route. Even pre-2006 the loft rooms had to have fire doors.

As an alternative to replacing the existing doors with fire doors you can upgrade the existing doors to an FD20 standard with intumescant paint and paper, companies such as Envirograf can advise you further on the best products for your doors but expect to pay more for these than the cost of the replacement doors.

SJ - 8/6/16 at 04:33 PM

We had to have fire doors. Not they they are ever closed.

myke pocock - 8/6/16 at 04:45 PM

The reason to have a fire door is to prevent the passage of FIRE so keeping them open is a waste of time. If you want them open then have closers wired into a smoke detector mechanism that closes them on alarm. I fought long and hard at my place of work to prevent people holding fire doors open with those funny red cylindrical things!!!! Never won.

StevieB - 8/6/16 at 04:48 PM

My neighbour had to have a fire door on the landing in his house for the loft conversion (stairs open onto lounge area). He had a magnetic latch and closer fitted which is wired into the smoke alarm, so the door can be propped open most of the time but will automatically close of the smoke alarm goes off.

My understanding is that you have to have a means of protection for your escape route, which in the case of a loft conversion would be to protect the upper floors so you can escape from a first floor window (normally you have to have Windows on the first floor that open fully to allow an escape route too).

The irony being that if you don't have a loft conversion, you can just happily burn to death on the first floor without need for fancy doors...

[Edited on 8/6/16 by StevieB]

cliftyhanger - 8/6/16 at 05:10 PM

My understanding is that the hallway is the fire escape route, and that needs to be protected from fires that start within rooms.

This is from councils/letting regs etc.

Of course, having windows people can get out from is also a no-brainer..... but the inspectors were clear that it is the hallway that the fire doors are protecting.

smart51 - 8/6/16 at 05:41 PM

The two loft doors will be new and I'm happy for these to be fire doors. I didn't want to pay for 8 other doors to be changed. I guess we have to do what we have to do. I was sure I'd heared that closers and alarms were enough. Always worth asking to check.

SJ - 8/6/16 at 06:35 PM

quote:

The reason to have a fire door is to prevent the passage of FIRE so keeping them open is a waste of time. If you want them open then have closers wired into a smoke detector mechanism that closes them on alarm. I fought long and hard at my place of work to prevent people holding fire doors open with those funny red cylindrical things!!!! Never won.


Do really expect little kids to have their bedroom doors shut? Auto closers seems a bit OTT.

[Edited on 8/6/16 by SJ]

StevieB - 8/6/16 at 06:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

The reason to have a fire door is to prevent the passage of FIRE so keeping them open is a waste of time. If you want them open then have closers wired into a smoke detector mechanism that closes them on alarm. I fought long and hard at my place of work to prevent people holding fire doors open with those funny red cylindrical things!!!! Never won.


Do really expect little kids to have their bedroom doors shut? Auto closers seems a bit OTT.

[Edited on 8/6/16 by SJ]


You don't need closers on all doors, just the doors that compartmentalise the area you're trying to protect. As I said with my neighbour, he put a new fire door separating his landing between the stairs and the rest of the bedrooms, which satisfied the requirement.

Ben_Copeland - 8/6/16 at 07:18 PM

I'm just finishing loft now. Fire doors on all bedrooms must be 30 minutes. You don't need intumescent strips. Bathrooms don't need them but living room and kitchen do.

You should have at least one fire escape window on the 1st floor but no longer need them in the loft.

Closers are a bit of a grey area it seems, some say you do need them some say not necessary anymore.

You need to check with your particular building control to see what they want in your area.

SJ - 8/6/16 at 07:43 PM

On our loft we don't have any doors compartmentalising the areas so I guess that explains the difference. It wasn't a problem for the building inspector.

cliftyhanger - 8/6/16 at 08:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

The reason to have a fire door is to prevent the passage of FIRE so keeping them open is a waste of time. If you want them open then have closers wired into a smoke detector mechanism that closes them on alarm. I fought long and hard at my place of work to prevent people holding fire doors open with those funny red cylindrical things!!!! Never won.


Do really expect little kids to have their bedroom doors shut? Auto closers seems a bit OTT.

[Edited on 8/6/16 by SJ]


Many people fit the cheapo flush fire doors and rubbish cheap closers (if needed) and once regs passed put their nice doors back on. However, they forget the purpose of the doors. Which in reality is important!

myke pocock - 8/6/16 at 09:20 PM

Well SJ if you took that line with your local Fire Department I dont think they would be over enamoured. What price safety?

Chris_Xtreme - 9/6/16 at 08:06 AM

we had to replace all doors in the house with fire doors and strips when we did our loft. (apart from bathroom doors)

also something that caught us out and the inspector commented on after the builders left is that he wanted to see 3 hinges on the fire doors, top, bottom and middle new ones, so I added those.. this was due to the doors being too heavy for just the 2 and could fall off the hinges sooner than be burnt through.

smart51 - 9/6/16 at 01:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by StevieB
My neighbour had to have a fire door on the landing in his house for the loft conversion (stairs open onto lounge area). He had a magnetic latch and closer fitted which is wired into the smoke alarm, so the door can be propped open most of the time but will automatically close of the smoke alarm goes off.

My understanding is that you have to have a means of protection for your escape route, which in the case of a loft conversion would be to protect the upper floors so you can escape from a first floor window (normally you have to have Windows on the first floor that open fully to allow an escape route too).

The irony being that if you don't have a loft conversion, you can just happily burn to death on the first floor without need for fancy doors...

[Edited on 8/6/16 by StevieB]


Does that mean we can keep the ground floor doors and just replace the upper floors?

loggyboy - 9/6/16 at 02:16 PM

Nope

Direct from Regs:

where a new storey is to be added by converting an existing roof space, the provisions for escape need to be considered throughout the full extent of the escape route. For example, a loft conversion to a two-storey house will result in the need to protect the existing stairway (by providing fire resisting doors and partitions) where previously no protection may have existed.

There is also an note stating old doors (if of a historic or architectural merit) can be upgraded to meet the requirement.