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E10 In Petrol cars

jester - 23/6/21 at 07:59 PM

How will this effect your Car

I see there was a post all ready started but that was in sales

Not in Engine

theconrodkid - 23/6/21 at 09:22 PM

no idea why i put in the for sale section

coyoteboy - 24/6/21 at 01:02 AM

Toyota Celica GT4 (Highly modified) - wouldn't use it, but wouldn't use 95RON anyway.
Nissan 370Z - bone stock, can't run on 95RON, requires 98+ anyway.
Pug 306 Diesel - no effect
Toyota Hilux Surf Diesel - no effect.

That's me sorted then

bi22le - 24/6/21 at 07:16 AM

Audi A4 TDI - Not affected
Pug 206 HDi ( soon to be pug 208 electric) - Not affected
RAW Striker 4age ITB - Mapped on 98+ so not affected
Honda CBR500RR - Not affected.

I'm all good, and as I try to hug the odd tree I am all for it. It may even mean that super is more commonly available.

David Jenkins - 24/6/21 at 07:19 AM

When I visit my daughter in Australia I usually hire a car, so I get to see their petrol stations - they usually have 3 petrol pumps, E10, standard, and super. E10 is the cheapest, standard costs a bit more, and super is the most expensive.

I don't see why the UK can't be the same: E10 for those that can use it, standard for those that can't, and super for those with higher-tuned engines.

nick205 - 24/6/21 at 08:30 AM

Skoda Kodiaq 1.4 TSI 2017 - E10 compatible
Push bike A - no worries
Push bike B - no worries
Bus (work commute) diesel - no worries
Train (work commute) electric - no worries

Pretty sure I'm with David Jenkins here - let filling stations sell the range and customers/drivers chose appropriately. I appreciate there's many customers/owners who may not be aware (or even understand) what to chose, but the world has to progress.

BenB - 24/6/21 at 08:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
When I visit my daughter in Australia I usually hire a car, so I get to see their petrol stations - they usually have 3 petrol pumps, E10, standard, and super. E10 is the cheapest, standard costs a bit more, and super is the most expensive.

I don't see why the UK can't be the same: E10 for those that can use it, standard for those that can't, and super for those with higher-tuned engines.

What are these petrol station things you talk about?
Round here they're all disappearing, it's quite ridiculous. Yesterday I was discussing with a friend the disadvantages of EVs in relation to having to plan ahead when you were going to charge but how it's now like that with petrol stations in NW London. I commute to work each day (or rather did until I launched myself down some cellar steps breaking my hip in the process- so no driving for another 3 weeks). On the commute I either drove directly past or could access (with just a few minutes deviation) 3 petrol stations. 2 have closed already and the 3rd is due to close next year.

End result is I now have the choice between 4 petrol stations a number of miles away. And all have major issues with traffic associated with them. 2 are on the North Circular (terrible most of the time), 1 is on the A5 (Kilburn High Road)- even worse traffic, the other is on a major route but it's in a one-way section of a road that often gets jamned and then I'd have to take a 30 minute deviation to get back home...... Logically I'd decide on a time when the traffic isn't so bad and get into the habit of filling up then but for 3/4 of these stations there's never a good time. I guess I'll have to take the fourth on an evening I finish late, just sucks heading out of work and heading in completely the wrong direction and making a 45 minute journey out of a 20 minute one just to get some flipping fuel.

sdh2903 - 24/6/21 at 08:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bi22le

I'm all good, and as I try to hug the odd tree I am all for it. It may even mean that super is more commonly available.

I’m intrigued as to how you think it’s helping the planet?

The ethanol content reduces the efficiency of the fuel, ie less bang for your buck, less mpg, reduced performance and you end up using more fuel which offsets the gains anyway.

nick205 - 24/6/21 at 09:08 AM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903

quote:
Originally posted by bi22le

I'm all good, and as I try to hug the odd tree I am all for it. It may even mean that super is more commonly available.

I’m intrigued as to how you think it’s helping the planet?

The ethanol content reduces the efficiency of the fuel, ie less bang for your buck, less mpg, reduced performance and you end up using more fuel which offsets the gains anyway.

Fair comment

Will that not serve the longer term effect of encouraging vehicle makers towards EVs (or other) and away from internal combustion engines?

Will it not also serve to encourage vehicle users towards EVs (or other) and away from internal combustion engines?

Governments may well be making a stear here to get populations to make the change.

liam.mccaffrey - 24/6/21 at 10:22 AM

Considering I work at a refinery and actually make the stuff I really should know more about it

SJ - 24/6/21 at 10:45 AM

quote:

Considering I work at a refinery and actually make the stuff I really should know more about it

Presumably you can just fill up for free at work

nick205 - 24/6/21 at 11:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ

quote:

Considering I work at a refinery and actually make the stuff I really should know more about it

Presumably you can just fill up for free at work

Nice perk of the job if you could - I'd imagine our dear government would be all over that with some form of tax!

coyoteboy - 24/6/21 at 11:33 AM

quote:
End result is I now have the choice between 4 petrol stations a number of miles away. And all have major issues with traffic associated with them. 2 are on the North Circular (terrible most of the time), 1 is on the A5 (Kilburn High Road)- even worse traffic, the other is on a major route but it's in a one-way section of a road that often gets jamned and then I'd have to take a 30 minute deviation to get back home...... Logically I'd decide on a time when the traffic isn't so bad and get into the habit of filling up then but for 3/4 of these stations there's never a good time. I guess I'll have to take the fourth on an evening I finish late, just sucks heading out of work and heading in completely the wrong direction and making a 45 minute journey out of a 20 minute one just to get some flipping fuel.

To be fair that's just where you live. For me (and most of the population outside of cities) all the petrol stations are still open, but they always were miles away and I have no traffic because I live in the fields for a reason - I hate traffic and people

quote:

I’m intrigued as to how you think it’s helping the planet?

The ethanol content reduces the efficiency of the fuel, ie less bang for your buck, less mpg, reduced performance and you end up using more fuel which offsets the gains anyway.

But it doesn't offset the gains if you run the numbers and calculate the equivalent MPG based on the non-renewable carbon emissions...:

Fuel Type

First MPG column is the approx mpg you get with your lack of thermal energy content (ie a 0.6mpg drop on a 30mpg car). And the right hand MPG column is the effective MPG, as calculated from the lower fuel efficiency and the higher percentage of renewable fuel combined from the perspective of carbon emission (i.e. even though you're getting 29.4mpg in reality, that's still equivalent to your car doing 32.6mpg on normal fuel). The numbers rather obviously equate to approximately a 10% efficiency increase in terms of miles/CO2 output.

You can calc it directly by doing Carbon Equiv MPG = MPG * ((Eth%*20)+((1-Eth%)*25) * (1/(1-Eth%))

As the %Eth increases, the effective MPG goes up = at 50% eth, you're looking at 48.6ish mpg equiv, despite a real world drop to 27mpg from 30.

You just have to hope that the production of ethanol (including growth, processing and transport) is less than the cost of mining the crude and it's processing and transport, or the picture gets muddier. I don't have numbers on that.

[Edited on 24/6/21 by coyoteboy]

Mr Whippy - 24/6/21 at 11:59 AM

Personally I think it's just flogging a dead horse. We all know were cars are going like it or not.

The biggest impact in the future will be classic & vintage cars and how or if they can be supported without prohibitively expensive fuel costs. I got rid of my Landy which I spent 5 years rebuilding to just how I wanted it purely due to the fact it cost Ł80 a week on fuel which was painful. Lets face it, petrol stations are in it only for the little money they make and if the demand is not there, they will vanish and very quickly too. They're already hit hard by the supermarkets under cutting them and those only sell the most popular fuels, my local Asda only sells 95 & diesel. I haven't come across super unleaded for sale in many many years.

coyoteboy - 24/6/21 at 12:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Personally I think it's just flogging a dead horse. We all know were cars are going like it or not.

The biggest impact in the future will be classic & vintage cars and how or if they can be supported without prohibitively expensive fuel costs. I got rid of my Landy which I spent 5 years rebuilding to just how I wanted it purely due to the fact it cost Ł80 a week on fuel which was painful. Lets face it, petrol stations are in it only for the little money they make and if the demand is not there, they will vanish and very quickly too. They're already hit hard by the supermarkets under cutting them and those only sell the most popular fuels, my local Asda only sells 95 & diesel. I haven't come across super unleaded for sale in many many years.

Up in Aberdeen? That place is filled full of ferraris and lambos, where are they getting their super? Presumably not Asda I guess.

Super is available at all the major supermarkets that I've visited here in the central belt?

Westy1994 - 24/6/21 at 12:36 PM

there is a great book on the subject called
classic cars and modern fuel, written by paul ireland
the book is basically all the research that manchester uni did a while back.

i used to read forums such as this one and crapped myself about using e10, i have learnt a lot reading it,
i have no connection to the book by the way, just someone who likes the facts from someone who has done extensive research on the matter.

Westy1994 - 24/6/21 at 12:38 PM

correction, its classic engines, modern fuel - my mistake.

coyoteboy - 24/6/21 at 04:41 PM

quote:

i used to read forums such as this one and crapped myself about using e10, i have learnt a lot reading it,
i have no connection to the book by the way, just someone who likes the facts from someone who has done extensive research on the matter.

Exactly. The thing is the good folk making it have put a lot of time onto developing something with maximum market availability and minimal risk of damage to accidental users. They state "may not be suitable" to make you stop and think and to pass ultimate liability over to you, but in reality the risk is limited to some tiny fraction of the population. My GT4 would get it if it wasn't mapped for 99RON, and to be honest it might get it anyway at times.

Yet folk run WVO through cars to save a few pence on the pound 😂

steve m - 24/6/21 at 06:12 PM

Wasnt this argument raging back in the days when Leaded fuel stopped and EVERYONE in the country with a classic or old car were complaining ?

Yet now, what did they do? just stick some additive in, to replace the lost lead, something i still did, even though my old xflow, had hardened seats

This new E10, is supposed to be cleaner, so for the planet cant be a bad thing, i dont have any issue either way, as my Mondeo complies with the new fuel,

Its not as if we can all jump up and down and say we dont want it, as that argument will end quickley ...................

jester - 24/6/21 at 10:44 PM

I am fine with my daily driver Golf TDI

The problem maybe with the striker.

When I brought it I said to the owner what fuel does this xflow use is it unleaded with additive.

The owner said no just super unleaded.

It is tuned engine it's now a 1700 with stage 2 head & fancy cam & twin 40 dcoe's.

So must have had the vales done

My Jester run's on 4 Star at the moment the one I brought to build myself 20 years ago I only got it started again a few years back.

The mobile tuner said stick with 4 star as it's been sat so long.

I am still working on the bodywork plus IVA cost put that one on hold.

So I brought a second one that was built by someone else & SVA.

That one looks to run on unleaded fuel with additive.

Not started yet as I have stripped the car right down

So will have to see how this works out on the cars

That's why I started the post to see what trouble's/Or not other people may have with the new E10 Fuel on there cars

Westy1994 - 25/6/21 at 02:34 AM

i had another quick refresh of this book today, as it has been a while since i read it.

there is a lot of data in it, but the way i read it, its no way as bad the the internet would make out, there are one or two caveats though.

as long as you use the engine on a regular basis, for me thats about once a week, you will be ok, for those that use e10 or e5 in a car that gets laid up over winter or is in long term storage, the ethanol will separate out in what is called a phase separation. this then causes, if you have a steel fuel tank, the tank to rust as ethanol is hydroscopic and is more dense than petrol so sinks, the other is rubber pipes. the only modification on my car is the rubber pipes, which i swapped out for r9 types, i used the cohline stuff but others may have the same spec.

i think most of us have alloy tanks, so less of a concern, but there is limited data on ethanols effect on an alloy, again though if you use the car often we should be ok.

i did a lot of my own research on ethanols effect on plastics, as i have nitropyhl plastic floats in my webers, the data was vague, but there were many sites listing the effects on most plastics, which suggested that it did not have much of an effect, but i stress it was only two sites.

i joined the books bulletin board, where you can post something to the author, he answered most of my questions and i even had to correct him on something in his book...

main website here by the way

https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/Default.aspx?dyn_menu_main menu=1000001

lots of info on the board bit of it.

AdrianH - 26/6/21 at 08:39 PM

I am trying to figure is the gates fuel hose 23932 is suitable for E10 fuel and if J30 R6 hoses that I used during build are OJK, or if I need to change all out to J30 R9 or later?

I see that soldered joints may suffer erosion so carb'd soldered floats may be at risk. I use copper fuel lines and a bit unsure if I need to replace them, I guess there are other suitable fuel lines I could use now.

The old 1991 1.8 CVH engine as fitted to the Sierra is a bit to old to be in any of the check you engine databases.

Adrian

CosKev3 - 26/6/21 at 10:03 PM

Just use super unleaded and don't worry about it!

Westy1994 - 27/6/21 at 10:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
I am trying to figure is the gates fuel hose 23932 is suitable for E10 fuel and if J30 R6 hoses that I used during build are OJK, or if I need to change all out to J30 R9 or later?

I see that soldered joints may suffer erosion so carb'd soldered floats may be at risk. I use copper fuel lines and a bit unsure if I need to replace them, I guess there are other suitable fuel lines I could use now.

The old 1991 1.8 CVH engine as fitted to the Sierra is a bit to old to be in any of the check you engine databases.

Adrian

i am just posting my own experiences here but, i used to run cheap 3 quid a metre stuff from fleabay, this lasted 3 years on e5 fuel, the proof of its degradation was clear to see in my filters along the route with every one of them full of very small black bits, that when inspected was just a mushy mess of what used to be the lining of the pipes. i then swapped that out for r6 spec, this faired better based on the filter test, and it was only the pipes that were subject to constant washing of fuel, as in from the tank to the filter then to the pump, the rest after the pump were fine, there were less bits in my filters than with the cheap rubbish but bits were still in there none the less. this year i swapped them once again, this time for r9 spec, not enough time has elapsed to give a report on this, but i do expect this to last quite sometime. i should point out i did remove the tank and clean this out in case for some reason there was debris in it, there wasnt as it happens.

as far as solder goes, i have to say i did think this was affected, the internet told me so, however a post on that board i posted about above suggests the author thinks any degradation may be no worse than what you may expect using non ethanol fuels and the average wear and tear on such an old float is likely to have gone through over what 50 years or more. i can not say if he is correct as yet as i havent done my own tests, i may well do this once e10 is being sold. we did have a member on wscc whose car set on fire the other year, during the rebuild he found that one of the sides of one brass float had leaked and was full of fuel, thus sinking and causing a high level in the float bowl, i said at the time i thought this may have been due to ethanol, but now i am not so sure.

i also run copper pipes as the hard lines, i did remove one section when the r9 stuff was being fitted and found little to no adverse affects internally, but again this is a sample size of one here so check your own to be safe and we are still getting e5 around here so i will be keeping a close eye when e10 is sold.

and coskev, i tend to agree but not everywhere will sell it, and when they do the prices will be raised, since they want you to use e10, my local station havent sold normal fuel for years and years now, and when questioned on if they will still stock e5 when the e10 comes in he said no, why would i...

CosKev3 - 27/6/21 at 10:47 AM

What brand of fuel is he selling?

All Shell/BP/Esso garages I've been in sell super unleaded.

AdrianH - 27/6/21 at 11:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Westy1994

i also run copper pipes as the hard lines, i did remove one section when the r9 stuff was being fitted and found little to no adverse affects internally, but again this is a sample size of one here so check your own to be safe and we are still getting e5 around here so i will be keeping a close eye when e10 is sold.

and coskev, i tend to agree but not everywhere will sell it, and when they do the prices will be raised, since they want you to use e10, my local station havent sold normal fuel for years and years now, and when questioned on if they will still stock e5 when the e10 comes in he said no, why would i...

I have the J30 R6 lines and changing to J30 R9 should not be that expensive, if there was a hardline pipe that I could replace the copper with I would do that is they run along the inside of the prop tunnel. I used 10mm microbore pipe, the fuel system is all low pressure so was not an issue, I do have a joint in there and that is the main concern for me as well as the engine mounted fuel pump on the CVH, which I believe with it's age will be the old rubber diaphragm type. I will have to see if I still have an old one to dismantle. Or, perhaps remove and blank and fit an external low pressure pump?

As for using the premium super fuels, the last road trip I did was a few weeks ago and that clocked 790 miles, prior to that pre Covid I clocked 1100 miles on a trip down south and 1200 miles on a road trip to scotland, so the added extra they charge go from the typical E5 95 ron to a Shell or BP garage super is quite considerable with a 38 to 40 mpg car.

The CVH just runs well and has not caused any issues over it's 12 years of use, out and out performance is not what I was after, ease of maintenance being the main concern. But is it not a classic car so changes can be made. Perhaps this will be the kick up the rear to finally fit the 1.8 EFI Zetec over the winter period. I have had that sat under the bench for years.

Adrian

Westy1994 - 27/6/21 at 04:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
What brand of fuel is he selling?

All Shell/BP/Esso garages I've been in sell super unleaded.

it is a bp one, but there arent many pumps, its just a small service station, all he stocks is derv and e5, i have asked him many times if he can just use one pump for standard unleaded but it seems that its only me that wants it, so not worth his effort .

Westy1994 - 27/6/21 at 04:30 PM

i used the microbore stuff as well, i will keep an eye on it as e10 gets phased in, the cost difference between r6 and r9 is very little, i got mine from cbs but i guess fleabay would sell it as well. 2 meters did all my lines with a bit left over

tank to filter
filer to pump
pump to a pressure switch - to monitor pressure
switch to regulator
and finally reg to carbs. plus the link pipe between the two webers.

number-1 - 1/7/21 at 10:50 AM

https://youtu.be/b9mLbuUSt-0

[Edited on 1/7/21 by number-1]

AdrianH - 2/7/21 at 08:45 PM

Well I am playing on the safe side, the copper fuel pipe with the join is in the feed line from the tank to the engine, so will always have petrol in it, so the prop is out and the tunnel sides are off and slowly working to replace the length with a single run. It is not as easy now the car is built getting around the gearbox. As the existing lines being on the the car for at least 12 years I am happy to replace the rubber sections and fit a new fuel filter. J30 R9 tubing is on order and should arrive in the next few days.

All the motor factors and accessory shops around here only stock J30 R6.

I am wondering? If I buy a replacement after market QH mechanical fuel pump for the engine if it would be OK, they could be being I guess manufactured in the last couple of years and then that would just leave the Pierburg carb.

I plan to basically just do this remedial work on the car, (change brake fluid as well) and then see how the engine runs come September and the E10 Petrol. There is no pink detector on the esc-hybrid system, so not sure if I will have issues, if I do then I either find an additive, stick the super grade fuel in or change over to a Silvertop 1.8 Zetec with EFI, I guess it is all do-able.

Adrian

Westy1994 - 2/7/21 at 09:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
Well I am playing on the safe side, the copper fuel pipe with the join is in the feed line from the tank to the engine, so will always have petrol in it, so the prop is out and the tunnel sides are off and slowly working to replace the length with a single run. It is not as easy now the car is built getting around the gearbox. As the existing lines being on the the car for at least 12 years I am happy to replace the rubber sections and fit a new fuel filter. J30 R9 tubing is on order and should arrive in the next few days.

All the motor factors and accessory shops around here only stock J30 R6.

I am wondering? If I buy a replacement after market QH mechanical fuel pump for the engine if it would be OK, they could be being I guess manufactured in the last couple of years and then that would just leave the Pierburg carb.

I plan to basically just do this remedial work on the car, (change brake fluid as well) and then see how the engine runs come September and the E10 Petrol. There is no pink detector on the esc-hybrid system, so not sure if I will have issues, if I do then I either find an additive, stick the super grade fuel in or change over to a Silvertop 1.8 Zetec with EFI, I guess it is all do-able.

Adrian

My car shop only sells R6 as well, and the cynic in me tells me they will sell more of this than R9, given my own testing on R6.

I would like think any parts inside a mech fuel pump would be safe to use these days, actually I have an old Ford pump from the 60's , I may strip it and submerge all the parts that could be affected in E5 ( for now) as a experiment.I replaced my leccy one recently, but this was a Facet one rated for E85, so that should be ok. Not sure if I have said this before, but the only parts inside my webers I am unsure of yet, is that do the fuel shut off valves in the chambers have rubber as the tips?, some are all brass and some are tipped in rubber. I need to remove mine to find out.

AdrianH - 3/7/21 at 11:10 PM

Old fuel line is out and a new one ready to go in, still waiting for the hoses to arrive.

pipe1
pipe2
pipe3

General pipe layout - Joint _ Joint cutaway (by cutting disk).

The old hoses are certainly showing signs of cracking from the outside, no potential signs of internal deterioration down to 10 years of E5 on the inside, but I would suggest to all after so many years they would need changing anyway. I cut the joint section in half with a slitting disk, the heat was enough to melt the solder but looking internally it does not seem to be in bad condition, OK a little discoloured, but not bad after 12 years use.

Adrian

SteveWalker - 4/7/21 at 12:06 AM

I've just got rid of a copper dip pipe, soldered joints and old fuel hoses (replaced with stainless tube and fresh hose). I still have a nylon feed line and copper return line from front to back. Nylon is supposed to be okay and I should be able to get away with the single piece copper line for a long time. At some point, I may replace both with aluminium tube - supposedly pretty good with E10 and (almost) as malleable as copper.

[Edited on 4/7/21 by SteveWalker]

AdrianH - 15/7/21 at 07:01 PM

A re-order of some more fuel line and a fuel filter arrived yesterday and I completed replacing all the rubber lines, definite cracking on the outside of the hoses, but if that was down to evaporation though the old R6 or just 12 years is anyone's guess.

I used just over 3 meters in total.

I checked the diaphragm of the fuel pump and that looks to be in fine order, certainly not a rubber product so guess it is of suitable material. Not stripped the carb down it is running fine so I will now have to await the use of E10 and see how it performs in the old CVH and keep my eyes open for any issues. Changed the brake fluid today as well so that is another task off the list.

Adrian

[Edited on 15-7-21 by AdrianH]

motorcycle_mayhem - 16/7/21 at 08:17 AM

Usual confusion evident from folks susceptible to the 'positive' environmental arguments put forward by those with such vested interests, without question. Ethanol (or any oxygenate) does help the burn, yes, it does help emission related hardware. It's calorific value isn't great though (remember it's the C-C bonds breaking that give you the energy). You also need to ask yourself... where is the EtOH coming from? It's not like most folks idea of electricity, it's not 'magic'.

Yes, we all know where the infernal combustion engine is going, we will all be denied access due to taxation cost (except the political classes and pensioned boomers). There will probably be enough extension cables coming over to this grey rock from Europe to supply us with electricity, so perhaps a 'Mad Max' scenario where the likes of I, as the underclass, fight over charged Li-Ion battery packs won't happen...

The environmental problem may well be the 8 Billion people, or so I've heard, wanting to live like Americans. I don't know, it's a viewpoint by some anyway. If that's the case, we need another planet (fast).

Anyway, E10, the OP's post. Will it affect my current vehicles?

Race car - No, it's on canned MTBE/Toluene fuel.
Land Rover SII (1967) Diesel (No)
Transhit - 2001 Diseasel (No)
Focus - 2005 (No)

Sanzomat - 16/7/21 at 02:16 PM

Just to add my two pence worth. My GTM Spyder came to me in 2014 with all R6 hoses, stiff, brittle, shrunk at the joins to hard lines and cracking on the outside. That after 10 years assuming they were the originals (IVA/registered 2004). I think E5 was the normal pump fuel for most of this period. I replaced everything with R9 hose in 2014. I continued to use E5 fuel. By 2019 I noticed a bit of fuel seeping at a join or two and closer inspection showed the R9 hose had deteriorated to almost as bad as the 10 year old R6 had got to but this was in just 5 years. Okay, maybe the R6 had been replaced already. Either way - in my experience R9 hose needs replacing after 5 years running E5 through it so probably 3 years with E10. I've stayed with R9 for now as I couldn't get anything better over the counter and wanted to change it as soon as I found the weeping. Next time I'll plan ahead and get something higher grade than R9.

David Jenkins - 16/7/21 at 02:56 PM

What I find astonishing, and rather terrifying, are the many videos that can now be found on YouTube showing methods for getting the ethanol out of petrol. Mostly they involve putting the petrol in a large plastic container, adding water, shaking it vigorously, leaving it overnight, then pouring the petrol off the top of the water. The theory is that the ethanol readily mixes with the water, thus separating it from the petrol.

What could go wrong?!

There are so many ways it could go nasty, very quickly... most of the videos show 5-gallon plastic containers, none of which would be allowed in a UK petrol station. If the container is dropped while being shaken it could easily burst, ruining your whole day. And if there was a spark or naked flame nearby...

It seems that removing the ethanol changes the octane rating as well.

Oh - and almost all of these videos originate in the USA.

gremlin1234 - 16/7/21 at 05:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
What I find astonishing, and rather terrifying, are the many videos that can now be found on YouTube showing methods for getting the ethanol out of petrol. Mostly they involve putting the petrol in a large plastic container, adding water, shaking it vigorously, leaving it overnight, then pouring the petrol off the top of the water. The theory is that the ethanol readily mixes with the water, thus separating it from the petrol.

What could go wrong?!

There are so many ways it could go nasty, very quickly... most of the videos show 5-gallon plastic containers, none of which would be allowed in a UK petrol station. If the container is dropped while being shaken it could easily burst, ruining your whole day. And if there was a spark or naked flame nearby...

It seems that removing the ethanol changes the octane rating as well.

Oh - and almost all of these videos originate in the USA.

at least they could win a Darwin award, but just think they could also drink the ethanol.

is it possible to win two Darwin awards at the same time...

AdrianH - 22/7/21 at 06:47 PM

I was surprised today when I visited an Asda Petrol Station that the petrol pumps already said E10 95 RON. I guess that it is here already.?

Adrian

SteveWalker - 23/7/21 at 01:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
When I visit my daughter in Australia I usually hire a car, so I get to see their petrol stations - they usually have 3 petrol pumps, E10, standard, and super. E10 is the cheapest, standard costs a bit more, and super is the most expensive.

I don't see why the UK can't be the same: E10 for those that can use it, standard for those that can't, and super for those with higher-tuned engines.

Except that those that can't use E10 are mainly those that can't afford a newer car and so charging them more for fuel is a big financial hit that they cannot avoid.

Mr Whippy - 23/7/21 at 09:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
What I find astonishing, and rather terrifying, are the many videos that can now be found on YouTube showing methods for getting the ethanol out of petrol. Mostly they involve putting the petrol in a large plastic container, adding water, shaking it vigorously, leaving it overnight, then pouring the petrol off the top of the water. The theory is that the ethanol readily mixes with the water, thus separating it from the petrol.

What could go wrong?!

Quite and what do they do with this water/ethanol waste? why just pour it down the drain along with the mucky petrol that didn't quite separate properly at the bottom cos who wants to bother disposing of that stuff properly...

David Jenkins - 23/7/21 at 10:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy

Quite and what do they do with this water/ethanol waste? why just pour it down the drain along with the mucky petrol that didn't quite separate properly at the bottom cos who wants to bother disposing of that stuff properly...

Absolutely! Dodgy and risky chemistry, high risk to life and limb, and a high risk of environmental damage. Also a risk to the engine, if you mess it up.

As I said - what could go wrong?!

P.S. My description of that process was incorrect - they put food colouring in the water, shake it all about, leave it to settle, then drain the water off the bottom until the liquid doesn't show any colour. Doesn't alter what I said earlier...

coyoteboy - 23/7/21 at 11:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker

Except that those that can't use E10 are mainly those that can't afford a newer car and so charging them more for fuel is a big financial hit that they cannot avoid.

But as I think we've concluded, most cars, even older ones, can run it just fine.

However life is tough, cars aren't a right. Do I like it? No. But for the world to progress and improve we can't appease all folk all the time. What would be the alternative proposition?

Mr Whippy - 23/7/21 at 02:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker

Except that those that can't use E10 are mainly those that can't afford a newer car and so charging them more for fuel is a big financial hit that they cannot avoid.

But as I think we've concluded, most cars, even older ones, can run it just fine.

However life is tough, cars aren't a right. Do I like it? No. But for the world to progress and improve we can't appease all folk all the time. What would be the alternative proposition?

More trains and busses

Bluemoon - 23/7/21 at 03:49 PM
Not read all the posts, but might find this link helpful.

https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels

Quite good on keeping to the facts.

Something we will all need to consider for pre-2000 based cars.

nick205 - 25/7/21 at 12:54 PM
Bio-ethanol (that produced from maize) is calorie negative I believe. i.e. it takes more calories to produce it than are in it.

If it's true then it seems a backward step!

SteveWalker - 25/7/21 at 01:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker

Except that those that can't use E10 are mainly those that can't afford a newer car and so charging them more for fuel is a big financial hit that they cannot avoid.

But as I think we've concluded, most cars, even older ones, can run it just fine.

However life is tough, cars aren't a right. Do I like it? No. But for the world to progress and improve we can't appease all folk all the time. What would be the alternative proposition?

Cars may not be a right, but they are often a necessity. Many people simply could not practically get to their workplace without one. In my own case, it takes less than 40 minutes to do the round trip by car and nearly 3 hours without. I have a disabled wife and three children to look after and to provide for. I simply cannot lose over 2 hours per day - life would simply not be worth living as it would be an endless round of work, travel, tasks at home, sleep, travel and work again, with no personal or family time at all.

[Edited on 25/7/21 by SteveWalker]

nick205 - 25/7/21 at 01:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker

Except that those that can't use E10 are mainly those that can't afford a newer car and so charging them more for fuel is a big financial hit that they cannot avoid.

But as I think we've concluded, most cars, even older ones, can run it just fine.

However life is tough, cars aren't a right. Do I like it? No. But for the world to progress and improve we can't appease all folk all the time. What would be the alternative proposition?

Cars may not be a right, but they are often a necessity. Many people simply could not practically get to their workplace without one. In my own case, it takes less than 40 minutes to do the round trip by car and nearly 3 hours without. I have a disabled wife and three children to look after and to provide for. I simply cannot lose over 2 hours per day - life would simply not be worth living as it would be an endless round of work, travel, tasks at home, sleep, travel and work again, with no personal or family time at all.

[Edited on 25/7/21 by SteveWalker]

A fair comment.

Myself I used to have company cars and cover 30k+/year miles. Wife & I also have 3 kids.

2014 epilepsy stopped me driving and I switched to public transport to commute to work. 4 hours round trip for a 40 mile round trip.

Working from home this past year or so made a difference, but back in the office now.

IMHO humans need to reevaluate energy consumption (travel being a major factor) and change things.

Working patterns and locations will have to be included.

SteveWalker - 25/7/21 at 02:07 PM
You may have had the right to request working from home, at least part of the week and they'd have had to give good reasons why not, as it would normally be considered a reasonable adjustment to cater for a disability. Them failing to do so would have left them open to action through a tribunal.

nick205 - 25/7/21 at 04:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWalker
You may have had the right to request working from home, at least part of the week and they'd have had to give good reasons why not, as it would normally be considered a reasonable adjustment to cater for a disability. Them failing to do so would have left them open to action through a tribunal.

Valid point and I was allowed to work from home during my initial recovery period when I came out of hospital (head injury).

The employer/employee relationship worked well and they've been exceptionally supportive throughout.

No complaints there.