Memphis Twin
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 12:46 PM |
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Hmmm, go on then quote some specs?
Going from a Burton 1650 to the 4AGE gained me 40bhp.
Bear in mind that a box stock later 4AGE kicks out 150 bhp, put some mild cams and twin 40's on a 16v and its around 175ish - we're
talking a few hundred quid here not thousands..
And I've done this conversion - there are no 'fitting problems'..
So how much did it cost then? (including stuff like bellhousing, exhaust etc. I'm curious...
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 01:23 PM |
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quote:
So how much did it cost then? (including stuff like bellhousing, exhaust etc. I'm curious...
Hi
Good question that, did a few other bits at the same time (uprated the gearbox etc) but if I recall correctly something like:-
Converting the engine to RWD inc Bellhousing & Manifold and the other bits and pices for fitting was around £700.
Think we got the engine for around £400 but that was a Phase 4 16v - quite low mileage. The spare one I've got in the garage cost about a
quarter of that - but that was by buying a complete, but running, MOT failure 92 corolla GTi!
We then added the cams, and some light head work to ours which added around £500 to it with vernier pulleys etc.
Running at just under 180bhp, and we've been doing OK with it in the ANWCC, Chester & Liverpool & Midland speed series. Sure it's
not in the same league as some of the engines being run (240bhp for £6 - 8k  ), but on a performance per £ ratio, coupled with availability and ease
of use it's got a lot going for it IMHO.
The basic theory we arrived at was:-
If we spent our £'s on the conversion and then subsequently we grenade an engine, for litterally a bit of elbow grease and a few hundred
£'s we can be up and running again. If we had gone down the route of the expensive engine and we had damaged that it would be game over for at
least a season.
It's the approach I've pretty much set on of trying to engineer long term cheap running costs into it - and then concentrate on the
car's dynamics to get the results out of it.
Means we (share the car at events with my brother) can be pretty competitive on a sensible budget.
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Memphis Twin
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 04:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencer
quote:
So how much did it cost then? (including stuff like bellhousing, exhaust etc. I'm curious...
Hi
Good question that, did a few other bits at the same time (uprated the gearbox etc) but if I recall correctly something like:-
Converting the engine to RWD inc Bellhousing & Manifold and the other bits and pices for fitting was around £700.
Think we got the engine for around £400 but that was a Phase 4 16v - quite low mileage. The spare one I've got in the garage cost about a
quarter of that - but that was by buying a complete, but running, MOT failure 92 corolla GTi!
We then added the cams, and some light head work to ours which added around £500 to it with vernier pulleys etc.
Running at just under 180bhp, and we've been doing OK with it in the ANWCC, Chester & Liverpool & Midland speed series. Sure it's
not in the same league as some of the engines being run (240bhp for £6 - 8k ), but on a performance per £ ratio, coupled with availability and ease
of use it's got a lot going for it IMHO.
The basic theory we arrived at was:-
If we spent our £'s on the conversion and then subsequently we grenade an engine, for litterally a bit of elbow grease and a few hundred
£'s we can be up and running again. If we had gone down the route of the expensive engine and we had damaged that it would be game over for at
least a season.
It's the approach I've pretty much set on of trying to engineer long term cheap running costs into it - and then concentrate on the
car's dynamics to get the results out of it.
Means we (share the car at events with my brother) can be pretty competitive on a sensible budget.
Very interesting. Well done. Sounds like a real contender.
I know how you feel about the proliferation of high-budget cars in what is supposed to be club motorsport, particularly in the roadgoing Kitcar
classes. I'm also staggered by the number of competitors arriving with £30-£40,000 motorhomes. In my heyday you were being flash if you had an
Easy-Up shelter...
I used to (in the mid 90s) compete with a X-Flow engined Striker with a good deal of success. The spec of my engine was not brilliant, but quite
nice; 1660cc, Powermax pistons, polished rods, 1FR4 cam with high-lift roller rockers, about 11.5 to compression ratio Big-Valve head etc Great
torquey engine, but lacking in top-end power. I had 100bhp at the wheels so had to pick and choose which events to enter. Flat-out blasts around
circuit-based courses were out of the question, concentrating more on twisty hillclimbs and sprints where the great mid-range punch of the X-Flow
could be exploited.
I then bought a top-spec race development head from Peter Fisher of SP Performance after seeing it on the flowbench. I knew this was the key to more
power, but the results were amazing. With NO OTHER MODIFICATION apart from a slightly larger bore exhaust manifold, jetting changes and an uprated
clutch, power leapt to 140bhp at the wheels (at 6900rpm). With a more aggresive camshaft I could have had a lot more, and all from a simple head
change .
I stopped competing a few years ago as I didn't like the way obsessive types with big wallets were spoiling it for the club competitor, but if I
were to return it would probably be in a crossflow powered car!
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MkII
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 07:03 PM |
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thanks for all the replys. to answer afew of your questions:-
car is used regulary on road with sprints hillclimbs as often as budget/work commitments allow,8-10 events this year
my crossflow was in car when i bought it so details are abit sketchy as i havent had it in bits its only done 3k miles
what i know for definite is
1660 crossflow built by brian randall
stage 2 head
lightened and ballanced bottom end
aldon dizzy and luminition
piper 285 cam vernier&duplex chain
twin 40s
stell rocker posts & shaft
dont know comp ratio but by way it turns on starter its way above std
ive never had it on rollers previous owner claimed 140 at wheels all i know is that it can keep with my mates 140 bhp caterham no probs.m.
[Edited on 25/11/08 by MkII]
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Memphis Twin
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 10:53 PM |
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I think you'll find with that spec. that it's got about 120bhp at the flywheel. (On a cold day...).
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MkII
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| posted on 25/11/08 at 11:13 PM |
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im not dissapointed. as i said i dont know exact spec of engine only what i have listed im also not sure head is stage 2 it may only be 120 at
flywheel but as i say its as quick as a simillar car with 140 bhp as for engine choice ive nothing against keeping the crossflow but dont want to
spend a fortune on it for little gain. im tempted to go for the 4a-ge if i decide on engine swap but im not ruling out zetec se although there isnt
anyone who has replyed to this post singing its praises.m.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 08:46 AM |
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If I were to replace my x-flow then I'd consider the 4AGE - it's a physically small engine that's easy to fit into a standard
chassis.
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Memphis Twin
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 02:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MkII
thanks for all the replys. to answer afew of your questions:-
car is used regulary on road with sprints hillclimbs as often as budget/work commitments allow,8-10 events this year
my crossflow was in car when i bought it so details are abit sketchy as i havent had it in bits its only done 3k miles
what i know for definite is
1660 crossflow built by brian randall
stage 2 head
lightened and ballanced bottom end
aldon dizzy and luminition
piper 285 cam vernier&duplex chain
twin 40s
stell rocker posts & shaft
dont know comp ratio but by way it turns on starter its way above std
ive never had it on rollers previous owner claimed 140 at wheels all i know is that it can keep with my mates 140 bhp caterham no probs.m.
[Edited on 25/11/08 by MkII]
To begin with, and as you use the car on the road quite a bit, I would do this:
Keep the Crossflow. It's pretty low mileage and you're halfway there.
Get the head re-worked by an expert. The inlet ports on these heads need a great deal of metal removal, and unfortunately it's not as simple as
sticking a boring bar down the port, as it curves toward the bore wall. It takes a lot of work with a die-grinder to carve a nicely-shaped large
diameter port. This the key to crossflow tuning. The best race heads have an inlet port with around a 33mm bore, (absolute maximum) although at the
manifold face the hole is bigger,and a great deal of work around the valve throat. The standard port constricts to about 28mm, and with that big valve
guide boss is quite restrictive. Most "experts" don't remove anyywhere enough metal. Have a word with Peter Burgess. (Do a search)
His company will rework your head for a very fair price.
Keep the 40s but increase (or decrease!) choke sizes to 33mm. Any bigger and you need 45s...More expense!
Because you use the car on the road, stick in a Kent 254 camshaft (you're pistons should already have deeper valve pocksts.
Get it on a rolling road where the operator knows how to re-jet Webers.
See how you go... With that little lot you should see 150 flywheel bhp or more, have a tractable (ish) engine (bear in mind the Striker only weighs
500kg) and it won't have cost much. If it's still not enough, THEN consider changing engines.
Cheers Chris.
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MkII
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| posted on 26/11/08 at 06:45 PM |
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thanks for your advice memphis twin youve just about got me convinced to keep the crossflow for nxt year at least.i think the plan is to remove head
and get it looked at by some one who can tell me how much work has been done to it and how well then plan rest of mods from there chokes are already
33mm and engine runs perfect apart from on very very light throttle at 2000-2250 rpm.the only thing wrong with engine is rockers and shaft are worn
would it be worth considering roller rockers or should i just replace with new steel items thanks m.
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Memphis Twin
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| posted on 27/11/08 at 01:32 AM |
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I would use new standard, but lightened rockers, but if you can find a good used set of standard lift roller rockers, use them. Going price 2nd hand
seems to be about £175. I wouldn't go to the expense of new ones. The only real advantage is that they stop the lateral wearing of the valve
guides and reduce frictional losses slightly. You can't use high-lift rockers with a 254 or 264 cam though...
As an aside, the all steel 1700 Crossflow in my old hillclimb Mallock made 180bhp at 7500 on Connaught's dyno. It was actually quite tractable!
I'm not convinced that it needed all those steel internals....
Cheers Chris.
[Edited on 27/11/08 by Memphis Twin]
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