sssline
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 03:43 PM |
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I spent ages not willing to spend the money then a while in all the stores trying various tablets before deciding on the Ipad and for me it just
works, nice and simple, instant on, read the news whilst eating breakfast, catchup on telly, kindle reader, social apps etc etc.
Yep they are over priced but then so is the real andriod competition.
Cheers
Tony.R
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craig1410
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 05:28 PM |
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Speaking as a tech savvy IT consultant with 30 years experience of personal computers and related devices and speaking as someone who has used Linux
since the early 90's, I should be the epitome of someone who would hate the iPad and in fact Apple products in general.
However, in 2007 in a fit of despair after several years of the perpetual disappointment and missed opportunity that was "Desktop Linux" I
bought an Apple iMac on the basis that I would just use the nice hardware but run Linux and Windows etc on it instead because I was an "advanced
user" and didn't need a pretty UI and simple operating system to help me. How wrong could I be... I now almost never touch Windows and
only use Linux for server applications which is where it is best suited despite things like Ubuntu coming along since then. Something designed to
"just work" shouldn't be seen as something only for "dumb" people. There is no shame in someone tech savvy using an easy
to use device. Let's face facts - most of us have grown out of tinkering with our computers as they are a commodity item nowadays, thanks
largely to Apple ironically. Most of us are more interested in getting things done and this is where an easy to use and reliable machine is
desirable.
Apple products are often described as over-priced but nothing could be more wrong. If you tear down an Apple product you will find very few
compromises in engineering. It's like the opposite of "Netbook" where every compromise in the book has been used simply to make it
cheaper. The big difference with Apple products is that the cost of building the device would be astronomical if it weren't for the economies of
scale which only Apple can currently achieve. They don't make 10,000 different variants of a given product, instead they make just enough
product variants to cater for their chosen audience and reap massive economy of scale along the way, some of which yields a healthy profit margin but
a lot of which also gives us a product which the other manufacturers can't match for the same money. I fully accept that Apple make
"premium" products but they are in no way "over priced" these days. Anyone who says differently clearly hasn't looked at
it in any balanced, factual way. Just ask the manufacturers who first tried to build an iPad competitor for anything remotely approaching the iPad
price tag - they couldn't do it and promptly pulled product from the pipeline and went back to the drawing board. Since then some cheap chinese
tablets have appeared but this is where you need to be careful to separate the words "cheap" and "good value". For example,
the Macbook Air is stunning value but isn't cheap at £850 or so. However, in 2004 I spent £970 on a PC Pro award winning Hi-Grade laptop for my
wife and it is falling apart now despite being looked after quite well. I also have an Apple Powerbook G4 from around the same timeframe and it is
still going strong and my wife now uses it instead of the Hi-Grade. Longevity can make the more expensive item better value in the longer term.
If any of you have ever taken an Apple laptop or other device apart you will understand what I mean when I say that these things are
"engineered" rather than simply "built". The quality of the chassis, screws, latches, lugs and hinges is great. The cases on
recent machines are machined from solid aluminium just like a Linn hi-fi system rather than brittle plastic which fatigues and cracks over time like
most vendors. Yes this makes it cost more but also makes it worth more after a few years and makes it actually worth selling on. The person buying
your 5 year old Apple laptop will most likely get several more years of usage out of it too. The same cannot be said of a typical Wintel laptop. The
same pattern will emerge for the current phones and tablets I suspect.
Another thing to be aware of is the continuity you get with Apple which is missing with other vendors. I have an iPad generation 1 device which I
bought in April 2010. Despite being 20 months old it still runs the latest operating system which has evolved massively since version 3.2 which was
shipped with the iPad (we are now on version 5.0.1). I can also still run all of the latest apps and they perform very nearly as well on my iPad 1 as
they do on iPad 2. I can also use the latest advances in the eco-system such as iCloud. Android devices don't tend to have the same regular
updates which leads to massive fragmentation issues. Eventually even Apple make changes which leave some devices behind but they do this in the
interests of progress where it is impractical to run the latest software on 3 or 4 year old devices. Those devices still work great but just
don't get some of the newer features. I can live with this on a 3 or 4 year old device but not on a 3 or 6 month old android tablet or
phone...
Usability is probably where Apple scores highest compared to other tablets. Just watch people using tablets in your local PC World for a good
demonstration. People using android devices often have no idea what they are doing and get frustrated quickly. People using iPads immediately get to
grips with it even with no training. Some people will retort that people are stupid if they can't use an android tablet. Steve Jobs believed
that THEY (ie. Apple) were stupid if people couldn't use the iPad. A completely different mindset and one which is reflected in the responses
above in this thread. Some people can't let go of the notion that computing should be difficult and they are uncomfortable that their specialist
skills are somehow diminished by having a device which is easy to use. Despite the fact that I run my own IT consultancy company and make a living
from my specialist knowledge, I see this as a good thing and will allow us as a species to evolve to a higher level. I grew bored with talking my Dad
through using fdisk and format many years ago when his PC hard drives failed. Now he can just type in his apple ID and restore his iPad from the
cloud. I also got bored helping him navigate directory structures. Now he just goes to his Photos app and his photos are all there.
My advice is to get an iPad and keep it for a few weeks at least, even if you find some things it won't do for you initially. There is a ton of
help available out there and I will personally help if asked. There are very few things an iPad can't do so don't take the word of anyone
who has only spent a couple of hours with one and promptly gave up out of boredom or more likely a lack of imagination. It's only really when
you start to load up your own apps & content and personalise it that it comes alive. Leave it kicking around the living room and you will use it
lots. Far more comfortable to curl up on the couch with an iPad than a laptop and browse the web. I use mine for work as well to track time on client
sites, issue invoices, track expenses, do Skype calls etc. The list keeps expanding.
Any questions, drop me an email.
Cheers,
Craig.
[Edited on 30/12/2011 by craig1410]
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Proby
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:12 PM |
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Craig, you are so right in every way. I have stripped my iPhone to pieces more than once (to rehouse it after cracking the shell) and the quality of
components and engineering is superior to anything else out there. I was always anti Apple, but now own an iPhone, iPad & apple TV. They have all
been jailbroken, allowing me to do what I want with them (rather than apple telling me what I can do) and I can honestly say I'm considering
dumping my desktop PC for a mac.
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craig1410
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:53 PM |
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Yeah watch out mate it's a slippery (or should that be frictionless) slope... 
Since 2007 I have bought:
iMac 24" 2.4GHz, iPhone 3G 8GB, Time Capsule 500GB, Apple TV 2nd Gen, iPad 1 16GB WiFi, iPhone 4 32GB
Also, bought on eBay and repaired:
iBook G4 12" 800MHz, iBook G4 12" 1.3GHz, Powerbook G4 12" 1.5GHz, iPhone 3GS, iPod Touch
My current consultancy contract is with a company who won't allow me to use my own machine on site so they have given me a brand new Macbook Pro
15" with i7 processor for the duration of the contract. I can take it home and use it freely too. Saved me having to buy a machine for the job
although I'll probably get a Macbook Air 13" (or 15" if rumours are correct)
The strange thing is that I have spent less on my iMac than I would have done over the same period (4.5 years+) on an equivalent PC. By the time you
pay for the parts (especially a comparable LCD display in 2007) and get a copy of Windows and other software which comes either free or very cheap
with the Mac it soon mounts up. The killer is the fact my iMac would still sell on ebay for around £600 (£1149 new) whereas a 4+ year old PC would be
virtually worthless (maybe £150?). That's if I needed to sell it but I don't because it's still working great and is running the
latest operating system (Lion) which only cost £20 quid or so to upgrade to. The upgrade was both possible and painless which I can't say is
true for Windows and Linux upgrades from my experience.
If the above makes me a "fanboy" in some people's eyes then I shall wear that label proudly! 
Cheers,
Craig.
quote:
Originally posted by Proby
Craig, you are so right in every way. I have stripped my iPhone to pieces more than once (to rehouse it after cracking the shell) and the quality of
components and engineering is superior to anything else out there. I was always anti Apple, but now own an iPhone, iPad & apple TV. They have all
been jailbroken, allowing me to do what I want with them (rather than apple telling me what I can do) and I can honestly say I'm considering
dumping my desktop PC for a mac.
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beaver34
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:07 PM |
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what craig said is correct and saves me typing it,
i have i-pad 1st gen and i i-phone 4 wouldnt buy any other brand, you get what you pay for and the hold there value so in theory dont cost any more
than the opponents
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craig1410
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:29 PM |
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Every time my email pings I expect it to be the "fandroid" counteroffensive...
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
However, in 2007 in a fit of despair after several years of the perpetual disappointment and missed opportunity that was "Desktop Linux" I
bought an Apple iMac on the basis that I would just use the nice hardware but run Linux and Windows etc on it instead
Surely backwards logic? Apple hardware is ridiculously expensive and typically proprietary in design, but people buy them because they look nice and
they run OSX. If you just wanted to run Windows and Linux, why would you pay Apple tax when you could get a vastly more powerful PC using
standardised parts? Seems like the worst of both worlds, esp. for running Windows (which I'm not knocking).
People now are doing the opposite, getting OSX to run on standard PC systems which gives the best of both worlds, cheap and powerful hardware coupled
with the only useful part of a Mac.
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craig1410
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:48 PM |
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I know my post was quite long Mike but did you read any of it? 
Apple hardware is not expensive. It was 10 years ago but not since they moved to Intel in 2005/06. Before I got my iMac I used to typically spend £600
every 3 years to upgrade my PC. I didn't go for cheap bits to be fair but I didn't go for the most expensive either. However, in 2007 I
needed a new monitor as well and when I tried to cost out a machine with a similar spec to the iMac (with a lovely 24" S-IPS LCD display) I
could barely source the parts for £1000 and for another £150 I could have a complete machine. Yes I could have bought cheaper PC bits and built a
machine for £700 or so but that was never my style. I am not a "cheap computer" user and never have been as it is the basis of my career.
As I said earlier, my machine is still worth £600 so has only cost me £549 over 4.5 years rather than the usual £600 every 3 years. I know you can buy
24" screens for £120 these days but back then a comparable screen was more like £700 and even today you would need to spend £250 to get
something comparable.
People have been building "Hackintosh's" for many years - this is not a new thing. The thing is they never quite work 100% and
require more maintenance then the real thing in order to utilise software updates etc. You are also restricted to using particular graphics chipsets
etc to maintain compatibility.
Apple hardware isn't proprietary any more so than a Dell or HP machine. They all use proprietary motherboards etc but the CPU's,
GPU's and other components like hard drives and screens are usually the same as in similar spec PC's. That's why Windows and Linux
will run on a Mac without any problem.
With respect Mike, it sounds like you are a few years out of date in terms of the power of Apple machines. Some of the most powerful desktop and
laptop machines available today are Apple machines, even when running Windows. PC Pro has reviewed quite a few machines and ended their article by
stating this explicitly. Even the recent Macbook Air machines are really fast due to the SSD drives. Apple also quite often get CPU and GPU upgrades
before the other manufacturers due to close ties with Intel and other chip vendors.
Cheers,
Craig.
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
However, in 2007 in a fit of despair after several years of the perpetual disappointment and missed opportunity that was "Desktop Linux" I
bought an Apple iMac on the basis that I would just use the nice hardware but run Linux and Windows etc on it instead
Surely backwards logic? Apple hardware is ridiculously expensive and typically proprietary in design, but people buy them because they look nice and
they run OSX. If you just wanted to run Windows and Linux, why would you pay Apple tax when you could get a vastly more powerful PC using
standardised parts? Seems like the worst of both worlds, esp. for running Windows (which I'm not knocking).
People now are doing the opposite, getting OSX to run on standard PC systems which gives the best of both worlds, cheap and powerful hardware coupled
with the only useful part of a Mac.
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Jasper
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 10:42 AM |
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It's always the same when discussed on here:
Those who don't own an Ipad tend to either want one, or, more interestingly, slag it off, saying Android is always better.
Yet those who have one always LOVE it.
So who you going to take advice from, people who own them and love them, or people who don't own one but seem to know how they would feel if
they did.
I got rid of my small laptop at home becuase I never used it. Sold it on Ebay for £140 - then got myself a second hand iPad1. I use it ALL the time,
because it's ready at the click of a button and is a total joy to use, as do the rest of the family. We use it to look up stuff on the net all
the time, from recipes and movie info, to BBC news channel and iPlayer. Oh yes, and the games are great too.
And I used to think Apple products were overpriced, till I came to sell my 2 year old iPhone 3gs, which had NEVER gone wrong, hardly ever locked up or
crashed, didn't have a single scratch on the screen even though it has no screen guard and lived in my pocket - for £150 on Ebay.
If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 11:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
I know my post was quite long Mike but did you read any of it?
Apple hardware is not expensive.
Are you seriously telling me you can buy an Apple Mac with equivalent CPU, Graphics and memory for anywhere near the same price as a generic PC
system?
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Benzine
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 12:08 PM |
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craig1410
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 02:52 PM |
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Good god, that is sooooo out of date and/or just plain misleading:
3G - There is an iPad 3G
Phone - Skype, FaceTime etc.
Takes Photos - Yes it does
Takes videos - Yes it does
Flash - Seriously? Even Adobe has given up on flash as they can't get it to work properly on mobile devices.
1080p - Why would you want 1080p on a 768 line display? 720p is plenty.
Desktop OS - No, and that's why it is so good! Microsoft tried a desktop OS on tablets 10 years ago and failed.
Expandable memory - Yes, 16GB, 32GB or 64GB with iCloud and Dropbox and WiFi sharing etc.
Mac OS X - Yes iOS is based on Mac OS X
Windows - Huh???
Linux - Huh again???
SMS Application - Yes, it's called iMessage and doesn't cost you any texts. It also gives delivery and read reports.
USB support - Supports USB cameras and SD/CF card readers. Jailbroken will support anything.
Hard Disk - Solid state hard disk - yes!
Physical Keyboard - Yes, for those who need one. Keyboard dock and many good keyboard-cases.
Handwriting recognition - Pllllease, that went out with the Newton. I'm sure there is an app for that though.
Voice Recognition - It's called Siri and will come to the iPad when out of Beta (or before via Jailbreak)
OLED Screen - No, it's got an IPS screen. Much better in many ways. IGZO screens probably coming next year which are even better.
Open-Source - Apple have open-sourced a lot of Mac OS X under the Darwin project. Open Source is not automatically good you know...
HD Display - Retina iPad expected next year.
HDMI Output - Yes, via cable or Apple TV
Card Reader - Yes, SD or CF or Camera direct
Ethernet Port - Seriously? Why tether when you can use wireless?
Free Internet - Huh? Does Starbucks or McDonalds count?
Uses E-Ink - Thank heavens it DOES NOT! Eek! All that flashing between refreshes a la Kindle. Yuck!
3rd party 'apps' - Only 150000 of them and counting... Plus another 400000 iPhone apps which also work.
Multitasking - Yes
Good games - Some of the best on the mobile market.
Fun - Absolutely
Can survive a 6 inch drop - definitely, unless you drop it onto the rock. Plenty of robust cases available for it too.
Does that help?
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
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craig1410
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 03:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
I know my post was quite long Mike but did you read any of it?
Apple hardware is not expensive.
Are you seriously telling me you can buy an Apple Mac with equivalent CPU, Graphics and memory for anywhere near the same price as a generic PC
system?
Apple focus more on what you can do with the machine rather than the outright specs although in recent years the specs themselves are pretty
comparable to the very best PC's. I'll bet there are Ford x-flow 1.3 engined Locosts out there which can beat my Rover V8 based Locost.
It's all about the "system" not any one component. Same with computers. Nobody has better integration of hardware and software as
Apple do, and it shows.
I know for certain that buying the iMac in 2007 has saved me money over the past 4.5 years. As I said, a large part of that comes from the resale
value and another large part comes from the fact the operating system doesn't get bogged down like Windows and compatibility is very high for
future software.
Try buying a brand new Mondeo and selling it in 3 years time. You'll get something like 32% residual value. That's what PC's are
like. Buy a different car (like my old SEAT Leon Cupra) and you might get 60% or more residual after 3 years which is what the Mac is like.
Depreciation is usually the single biggest cost of owning a car and yet many people don't understand or accept it and focus on petrol or road
tax or whatever. The only time depreciation doesn't matter is if you never intend to sell the asset or reuse it elsewhere. To my mind that is
even more crazy!
[Edited on 31/12/2011 by craig1410]
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Benzine
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 04:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Does that help?
Yeah. Helps confirm how easy it is to wind up apple fans
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craig1410
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 04:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Does that help?
Yeah. Helps confirm how easy it is to wind up apple fans
Couldn't be more chilled out actually...
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probablyleon
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 05:07 PM |
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I agree with Craig whole heartedly. I too use these kinds of devices on a professional basis (Macs and PCs). I've also owned iPhones, an iPad
and an Android phone. Apple products just seem to work better, and for longer, it's a fact! Yes if you read the specs (processor speed, bus
speeds etc etc) then a Windows machine might look more attractive on paper but when it comes to rendering some video or processing audio, or whatever,
not only will it be quicker on the Mac, the job will almost certainly be completed without any fuss or errors (or an irritating request for some
obscure driver, codec or whatever). Unless you regularly use both systems (for similar tasks) you'd never realise just how big the difference
is.
I think one of the main advantages Apple has, other than the afore mentioned superior build quality, is the fact that their software developers have
far fewer 'what ifs' to deal with. When creating any Windows operating system the unfortunate software engineer has very little idea what
his OS will be run on. This will obviously lead to compromises, inefficiency and instability. Apple's developers know exactly every hardware
scenario they're writing for, far less compromises and greater stability and efficiency. Unless of course its a 'hackintosh' (Not
seen one work properly yet).
I've literally just retired my old 'Quicksilver G4' after 10 years! How many PCs still run perfectly after a decade of hard use (and
absolutely no hardware modifications or repairs)?
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Benzine
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 05:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Couldn't be more chilled out actually...
350+ words in reply to a comedy pic. Seems legit
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D Beddows
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 05:31 PM |
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lol, try one, if you like it and it does what you need buy it....... simples
Personaly I surf the web in the lounge on my £25 laptop running Linux with a freezer revived battery and it does pretty much everything I need to do
that, I have a PC in the garage that cost me £9.99 from Ebay (the unfashionable 90's looking white box ones often have interesting motherboards
) I think I've spent £50 more upgrading it and it flies for what I need it for...... and I have a CAD type workstation (which I hardly ever
use) but runs Solidworks, 3D Max, AutoCad etc etc without blinking and it's got a quad core cpu so it renders ok too - £199 - Ebay again - oh
and another £25 quid laptop in the garage for megasquirt tuning So a total expenditure of what £350 quid? would I swap them all + a bit more cash for
an Ipad? nope but that's just me!
Locost all the way..... lol
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craig1410
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 05:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Couldn't be more chilled out actually...
350+ words in reply to a comedy pic. Seems legit
Oh it was a "comedy pic" was it....of course it was.
A comedy of errors certainly. 
350 words only takes a few mins, no big deal. I thought this was a forum after all.
Off to see Sherlock Holmes at the cinema and then a few beers to see in the New Year.
Have a good start to 2012 all.
Craig.
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CraigJ
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 06:38 PM |
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wow too many people need to get a life.
Its simple. Do you want one? if yes then buy it.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 07:14 PM |
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It comes back to what I said waaaay back in this thread - iPads are very clever and work brilliantly - but I'm not prepared to pay the huge
premium to get one. I can live my life without one.
Simples.
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craig1410
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 09:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CraigJ
wow too many people need to get a life.
Its simple. Do you want one? if yes then buy it.
Come on, the OP did ask for opinions not sanctimonious attacks.
@DavidJ, you can pick up a new 1st gen for just over £200 and 2nd hand iPad 2 for around £250.
Sherlock Holmes was quite good by the way, time for a beer now!
[Edited on 31/12/2011 by craig1410]
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whitestu
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 10:11 PM |
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I've only played with an Ipad, but have had an Iphone for a couple of years. It's OK for reading email but as a phone it isn't very
good. It is also way too slow to use the map & GPS app it comes with, but then as I said it is old ish. Doesn't work well with MS Exchange
either when synchronising calendars.
The biggest proble I have with all Apple devices is I tunes which is a godawful piece of software. The video editing stuff i've seen is good
though.
Stu
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daniel mason
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| posted on 31/12/11 at 11:48 PM |
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Wtf has happened to to this site? It used to be Interesting
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CraigJ
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| posted on 1/1/12 at 04:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
quote:
Originally posted by CraigJ
wow too many people need to get a life.
Its simple. Do you want one? if yes then buy it.
Come on, the OP did ask for opinions not sanctimonious attacks.
@DavidJ, you can pick up a new 1st gen for just over £200 and 2nd hand iPad 2 for around £250.
Sherlock Holmes was quite good by the way, time for a beer now!
[Edited on 31/12/2011 by craig1410]
Not an attack at the OP, more of an attack at the apple bummers.
Between me and my Mrs we have a destop pc, laptop, ipod touch and i have just got her a Blackberry playbook for xmas. She looked at the ipad and came
to the conclusion that it is just a giant version of the ipod touch she already has and didn't want to spend 400 quid just for the apple tax.
To the OP take a look at the BB playbook. starts from £169 and for photos and browsing its spot on. There are also loads of other tablets out there to
chose from that cost half of what an ipad costs.
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