black.viper
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 08:02 AM |
|
|
Pinto - rolling road result - any advice?
Last Sat I was with my Tiger on rolling test before tuning and setting engine.
My specification:
Pinto block 205, injection head
Skimming head 1,75mm, change radius inside according book "How tunning Pinto engine", standard valve
Inlet manifold - GBS
Carbs Mikuni 36mm choke with TPS (from GBS) - probably from ZX6R Kawa - main jet 168
Exhoust manifold (GBS) outside diametr 39mm _4-1_ 50mm and CAN supply from Tiger
Air filter Pipercross
MJL Ignition (Chester Sportscars)
Camshaft FR33
Results with airfilter - power on engine 144 hp @ 5633 rev., torque192 Nm @ 4869 rev. (on wheels 128 hp)
After 6000 rev power going rapidly down - I expected peak of power around 6500-7000 rev - maybe its due diameter of exhaust manifold - only 39mm OD -
its good for torque in middle revs but not good for camshaft FR33 with high revs.
Pls have anyone FR33 cam? Which exhoust outside diametr are using for Pinto - due book and my mind is best 45mm (and what diametr are used after
collector?)- but I need some experience or advice ... becouse made manifold is little expensive and I want do only one...
Thank you for any advice :-)
Petr
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
|
|
02GF74
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 08:10 AM |
|
|
firtsly take a look at the bottom of the graphs and study the colours - you will find that the curve witohout filter gives higher readings, as
you would if you think about it 
what is surpring is how much the filter saps, and this occurs in the low had high range, but not much difference in the middle.
I wonder why it is like that at low rpm? I would have thought it be more restrictive at higher rpms when larger volumes of air are drawn in.
|
|
|
omega0684
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 08:20 AM |
|
|
has the head been ported at all?
are you running std inlet and exhaust valves?
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 08:33 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by omega0684
has the head been ported at all?
are you running std inlet and exhaust valves?
Inlet was ported slightly - cut guide for valves
Exhoust was ported little bit more due book
Valves are standard only change geometry
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
omega0684
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 08:47 AM |
|
|
you can take loads of the exhaust port when porting, for the inlets you want to make the the inner lip of the port virtually none existant! the bad
thing about the pinto head is that the inlet ports are too big for the std valve sizes, ideally you want to have bigger inlets valves fitted,
-std valves are 42mm (inlet) and 36mm (exhaust) respectively,
a stage 1 head just has porting done to it,
-stage 2 head has bigger inlets of 44.5mm with std exhaust,
-stage 3 head has 44.5 mm inlets, 38.1 exhausts
-full race head has 45.5mm inlets and 38.1mm outlets
i would say that you see considerably more advantage on the stage 3 and race head but at this point you are starting to spend a lot of cash. The
difficult thing about having a race head is that its very hard to cut the seats without them overlapping.
i run 45.5mm inlets and std 36.1mm exhausts on mine and then i've ported right down to the back of the valve seat on the exhaust side to help
with breathability, if you look in dave vizzards book there isn't a considerable difference between fitting the std exhausts to the slightly
larger 38.1mm exhaust, extra porting can help minimise the difference.
As for your exhaust manifold, if you want top end power the stick with the 4-1 setup, if you want more mid range torque consider changing to a
4-2-1.
HTH's
Alex
[Edited on 29/9/09 by omega0684]
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 09:15 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by omega0684
you can take loads of the exhaust port when porting, for the inlets you want to make the the inner lip of the port virtually none existant! the bad
thing about the pinto head is that the inlet ports are too big for the std valve sizes, ideally you want to have bigger inlets valves fitted,
-std valves are 42mm (inlet) and 36mm (exhaust) respectively,
a stage 1 head just has porting done to it,
-stage 2 head has bigger inlets of 44.5mm with std exhaust,
-stage 3 head has 44.5 mm inlets, 38.1 exhausts
-full race head has 45.5mm inlets and 38.1mm outlets
i would say that you see considerably more advantage on the stage 3 and race head but at this point you are starting to spend a lot of cash. The
difficult thing about having a race head is that its very hard to cut the seats without them overlapping.
i run 45.5mm inlets and std 36.1mm exhausts on mine and then i've ported right down to the back of the valve seat on the exhaust side to help
with breathability, if you look in dave vizzards book there isn't a considerable difference between fitting the std exhausts to the slightly
larger 38.1mm exhaust, extra porting can help minimise the difference.
As for your exhaust manifold, if you want top end power the stick with the 4-1 setup, if you want more mid range torque consider changing to a
4-2-1.
HTH's
Alex
[Edited on 29/9/09 by omega0684]
Thank you Alex... in close future I dont want change head work like bigger valves etc. - due money - but I still thinking about my exhaust manifold -
becouse I think that its made for standard engine not for my cams... and I would like use potential FR33 cams (powerbend 3000-7500) and remove peak of
power little bit higher revs... and due result from rolling I thing that most restrictiv are my ex manifold - O.D. 39... for higher rpm need more
O.D....
What outside diameter are using on your Pinto and what type cams are you using if I could ask?
PS: about torque - 192Nm is very good result (its due used 39mm ex man) but I dont need it in mid range I want have it littel bit higer revs and for
it is 4-1 good choice...
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
Schrodinger
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 10:23 AM |
|
|
I would have thought that the size of the chokes was restricting your engine a bit.
Keith
Aviemore
|
|
|
Andy D
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 04:01 PM |
|
|
I'm getting just over 170bhp from a 2.1 pinto, using roughly the same size exhaust manifold. Four into one, primaries are 40mm o/d into 50mm
collector.
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 04:39 PM |
|
|
Your exhaust is fine. The exhaust ports on a pinto do need opening out to match the felpro large bore gaskets. There is a lot of material in them on
the sides and top of the port, do not remove any from the bottom though.
I would say your carbs are the restrictive bit. I would say its running out of air above 6000rpm. 38mm chokes are as big as you need to go on a pinto.
Your carbs dont have those silly sliding bits do they like a lot of bike carbs? They are massively restrictive. You may also be running out of fuel
above 6000rpm I dont know how your jet sizes translate into mm sizes but I was running 1.65mm mains on my pinto when I had webers.
Its evident when the engine is coming on cam at 3500rpm looking at the graph as the power and torque curves rise rapidly.
Where is your inlet? Is it inside the bonnet or sticking out of the side? If its inside, cut a hole in the bonnet, or repeat the tests with the bonnet
removed. A 2 litre engine moves about 230cfm of air at 6500rpm IIRC which is quite a bit especially if there is any restriction in front of the carb
inlets.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 09:08 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Andy D
I'm getting just over 170bhp from a 2.1 pinto, using roughly the same size exhaust manifold. Four into one, primaries are 40mm o/d into 50mm
collector.
Great! Thank you for saved money ...and I try find problem on other side.
Regards,
Petr
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 09:24 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Your exhaust is fine. The exhaust ports on a pinto do need opening out to match the felpro large bore gaskets. There is a lot of material in them on
the sides and top of the port, do not remove any from the bottom though.
I would say your carbs are the restrictive bit. I would say its running out of air above 6000rpm. 38mm chokes are as big as you need to go on a pinto.
Your carbs dont have those silly sliding bits do they like a lot of bike carbs? They are massively restrictive. You may also be running out of fuel
above 6000rpm I dont know how your jet sizes translate into mm sizes but I was running 1.65mm mains on my pinto when I had webers.
Its evident when the engine is coming on cam at 3500rpm looking at the graph as the power and torque curves rise rapidly.
Where is your inlet? Is it inside the bonnet or sticking out of the side? If its inside, cut a hole in the bonnet, or repeat the tests with the bonnet
removed. A 2 litre engine moves about 230cfm of air at 6500rpm IIRC which is quite a bit especially if there is any restriction in front of the carb
inlets.
David
Thank you David, your information are very useful for me!
Add main jet - its probably 1,68mm and wideband lambda - display that exhoust gas is too rich (I must set up correctly carbs) - I think that engine
have enough fuel...
Add test _ on the rolling I made test without bonnet... see pictures under
Add airfilter - I though that this Pipercross isn´t restrictiv but... which type of airfilter would be better?
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 29/9/09 at 09:43 PM |
|
|
Here I have video from testing without airfilter _ please, see what happend when tester set fullthrottle around 2000rpm _ fuel foam from carbs _ is it
normal?
Carbs are set up from GBS without any resetuping and doing this from 2000 to 2500 rpm ... when is there air filter - is still wet from fuel :-(
Sorry for lenght of video (72MB) Im not on my computer... http://tiger.nasealbum.cz/Storages/Rolling_road_without_airfilter.MPG
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 30/9/09 at 06:52 AM |
|
|
Too much fuel then.
You need an AFR of 12.7 at wide open throttle for max power all the way through the rev range.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 30/9/09 at 07:30 AM |
|
|
The filter should not be restrictive at those power levels, a friend of mine is getting 275 bhp from a 2L Mi16 engine running the same sized filter.
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 30/9/09 at 08:22 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Too much fuel then.
You need an AFR of 12.7 at wide open throttle for max power all the way through the rev range.
David
Thanks... I tested smaller main jet - 1,45 but power going rapidly down (max speed which I use for test going down from 185 to 171kmph) and carbs do
same thing when you set full throttle from small and middle rpm... (and after this were sparks absolutly white - poor fuel)
Need I change position of needle? Or is enough re-setup mixture screws placed from bottom of carbs?
Thx Petr... sorry for stupid question, I dont have any experiences with settings bike carbs.
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 30/9/09 at 08:31 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
The filter should not be restrictive at those power levels, a friend of mine is getting 275 bhp from a 2L Mi16 engine running the same sized filter.
Yes I agree with you... but if I look on the rolling road graph I see 16hp difference between with or without filters at 7krpm ...this is big
difference... but I absolutly dont know what with it 
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
black.viper
|
| posted on 30/9/09 at 08:40 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Andy D
I'm getting just over 170bhp from a 2.1 pinto, using roughly the same size exhaust manifold. Four into one, primaries are 40mm o/d into 50mm
collector.
Could I ask you for your engine specification? And if you have your graph from rolling road... could I see it?
I would be very glad.
Thx Petr
Im building Tiger Cat E1 Duratec engine
|
|
|
