Ivan
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:19 PM |
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Lag free turbo's - or not!!!
Just reading this http://autospeed.com/cms/A_111469/article.html and the bit at the end about the Turb0dyne turbo got me thinking - what a
brilliant idea - you could fit an oversized turbo and still get lag free boost at low revs or during closed throttle so that you had instant boost
when the throttle opened and at full boost use the electric generation aspect to act as a wastegate and not even need the drag of an alternator.
The best of both worlds - or is it????
Any thoughts on how feasible this is.
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blakep82
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:21 PM |
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lol. one word, no
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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Steve G
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
lol. one word, no
another word - "crap"
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:47 PM |
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Not sure any turbo can defeat the laws of Physics!!
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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blakep82
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
lol. one word, no
another word - "crap"
good word!
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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ReMan
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 09:51 PM |
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Don't do it
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=128403
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Steve G
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 10:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
lol. one word, no
another word - "crap"
good word!
Thank you Blake - its a particular favourite of mine and one much used at the moment (i'm a Liverpool fan!!) 
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tomprescott
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 10:56 PM |
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All those silly car manufacturers using twin turbos or supercharger and turbo combinations to reduce turbo lag have been wasting their time!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 21/2/10 at 11:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tomprescott
All those silly car manufacturers using twin turbos or supercharger and turbo combinations to reduce turbo lag have been wasting their time!
Not at all.
The question was around a particular piece of kit that claimed to be 'Lag Free'???
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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Simon
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 01:35 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Not at all.
The question was around a particular piece of kit that claimed to be 'Lag Free'???
To produce (via belt driven blower) say an extra 50bhp which is 37000w, you'll need a pretty impressive motor - compare 37000 with the 800 in a
drill. Then tell me you'll get it in a turbo, along with the inch thick wiring, and the slightly heavy duty battery, or are you going to put a
wind turbine on the roof of your car.
Let me save you the aggro - here's a 37kw motor
If you're that convinced, their share price is currently $0.009 (less than a cent) and might be worth a punt (or a euro!
ATB
Simon
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Ivan
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 07:26 AM |
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I basically agree with you all, but still, an intriguing idea as, with a closed throttle, the turbo is basically free wheeling and will only need
enough power to keep it spinning so might well work. However I am not too sure what forces one is dealing with nor the speed with which a turbo spools
down in a closed throttle situation given a good dump valve which given the momentum of the spinning parts and rate of deceleration would give you a
good idea of the power needed to keep it spinning.
Don't know how much power will be needed but will certainly be a lot less than that required to actually make boost, which is of course
significant, and could not be practically provided by an electric drive.
Of course their web site which is high on selling penny shares and low on technical backup gives a hint as to how effective their products are by the
very dearth of information. 
[Edited on 22/2/10 by Ivan]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 12:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon
To produce (via belt driven blower) say an extra 50bhp which is 37000w, you'll need a pretty impressive motor - compare 37000 with the 800 in a
drill. Then tell me you'll get it in a turbo, along with the inch thick wiring, and the slightly heavy duty battery, or are you going to put a
wind turbine on the roof of your car.
Producing an extra 50bhp via a supercharger does not "cost" 50bhp! The point still stands however, they do absorb a significant amount of
power.
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iti_uk
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 12:42 PM |
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I don't think it's such a stupid idea.
The idea (I gather) is to generate electricity when at high boost, controlled such that it can be used to limit the boost provided by the turbo, thus
eliminating the need for a wastegate.
Let's say this energy (not insignificant over several seconds of boost-limiting) gets stored in a super-capacitor (which can dump it's
coulombs very quickly), you could write an algorithm which feeds all of this energy (or a portion of it) in a split-second burst at the moment your
foot touches the accelerator or pushes the accelerator past a pre-determined travel, then, provided the elecric motor can take the energy spike, a
turning force large enough to "spool up" the turbo can be imparted, therefore giving the turbo a useful "kick-start".
I totally agree that a sustained use of the motor (trying to run the turbo solely using the motor) is not practical or realistic.
It would be an interesting concept to play with...
Chris
Edit:
As I stirred my 4th coffee of the day, I thought of another clarification;
We must note that the electric motor will not be working on its own to spin up the turbo, it will just be an additional input on top of the normal
exhaust-driven turbine, which will be doing its own job.
(Work done by turbine) + (Work done by motor) > (Work done by turbine)
Therefore, there will theoretically be some advantage to all of this...
[Edited on 22/2/2010 by iti_uk]
[Edited on 22/2/2010 by iti_uk]
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yellow melos
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 12:54 PM |
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An electric fan in the intake duct has been proven to work ( when tested on a K jetronic fuel injection system.
but the increase was about 2HP and only under certain speeds.. at higher revs the fan block the air flow.
in principle.. yes....
in real life... just not gonna work..
unless you have a very hi flow fan that can actually force the air through.... and be able to by pass the fan at certain air flow
ratio's.....
but the problem is that the current drown by that kind of fan and the size of fan you need... and on and on it goes...
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deezee
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 01:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellow melos
An electric fan in the intake duct has been proven to work
Do you have a link to this? In all the years I've seen the 'electric turbo' I've never seen an independent company verify the
claims
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 01:25 PM |
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My current pet dream project is to use two turbos bolted together to produce boost irrespective of engine revs.
The first, smaller turbo would actually be a miniature GTE (by fabricating the combustion chamber, quite a common thing). The exhaust gas would drive
a bigger turbo to create boost.
Very fuel inefficient and I havn't even looked at the ratios required, as it depends on the small turbo creating enough hot gas to drive the
large one without back pressure becoming a problem.
Complex but could be worth a laugh
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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deezee
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 01:57 PM |
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Why don't you have a normal twin turbo setup? Where one provides low down boost and the other higher rev boost?
Or a supercharger?
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iti_uk
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 02:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yellow melos
An electric fan in the intake duct has been proven to work ( when tested on a K jetronic fuel injection system.
but the increase was about 2HP and only under certain speeds.. at higher revs the fan block the air flow.
in principle.. yes....
in real life... just not gonna work..
unless you have a very hi flow fan that can actually force the air through.... and be able to by pass the fan at certain air flow
ratio's.....
but the problem is that the current drown by that kind of fan and the size of fan you need... and on and on it goes...
Are you barking up the wrong tree, or did we read different articles? The one I saw was a conventional turbo but with an electric motor/generator
between the turbine and compressor... ?!?
Chris
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boggle
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 03:26 PM |
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save yourself agro and buy an anti lag setup....
posotive boost when on the line and some flame spitting out the exhaust.....let the clutch up and get ready for some tunnell vision.....
just because you are a character, doesnt mean you have character....
for all your bespoke parts, ali welding, waterjet, laser, folding, turning, milling, composite work, spraying, anodising and cad drawing....
u2u me for details
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Ivan
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 04:56 PM |
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^^^ but very fuel inefficient and in so many audible ways anti social
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iti_uk
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 06:29 PM |
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...and illegal at most track-days. And probably not approved by the DVLA people.
Chris
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djtom
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| posted on 22/2/10 at 11:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
My current pet dream project is to use two turbos bolted together to produce boost irrespective of engine revs.
The first, smaller turbo would actually be a miniature GTE (by fabricating the combustion chamber, quite a common thing). The exhaust gas would drive
a bigger turbo to create boost.
This has been done in a very successful hillclimb car belonging to Nic Mann. It uses a small auxiliary gas turbine driving a turbocharger. Constant
25psi boost irrespective of engine revs. See here:
http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm
A very ingenious piece of backyard engineering!
Tom
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