BKLOCO
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 04:20 AM |
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LC-1
First of all Let me say Hi to everyone.
I haven't been around for a while but I used to be quite active on the forum a few years ago.
I am after some info regarding The Innovate LC-1.
When I first fitted this unit to my Zetec/Megasquirt setup it failed after a very short time.
Bill Shurvinton (the supplier) exchanged it for a new unit FOC.
I haven't been playing with the car much lately but on investigation the other day I found that this one has now died on me, so I'm back
to running a narrow band sensor.
In truth it could have packed up ages ago and not been noticed.
Over here in Cyprus the MOT is every 2 years and my car is now due. The map I used for SVA/MOT relies on the wide band set-up.
I haven't got time to re-map for emissions using the narrow band so need some info.
OK now for some questions:
1/ Has anyone else had probs with these units failing?
2/ Someone told me there was a bad batch manufactured a couple of years ago. Any info?
3/ Is Bill still around? (He doesn't seem to be replying to e-mails)
4/ Has anyone got a supplier/contact they can recommend for Innovate stuff?
Thanks for any info.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!! 
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Danozeman
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 06:26 AM |
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Welcome back Brian. I did wonder if youd taken your car over with you.
Dan
Built the purple peril!! Let the modifications begin!!
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk
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RazMan
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 07:55 AM |
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I bought my LC-1 from Latvia and apart from shipping delays due to the volcano thing it has been completely reliable. I may have been just lucky I
guess.
When you say that it failed, which part - controller or sensor? The sensors need to be powered up when ever the engine is running and need to be
mounted in a position that doesn't collect condensation.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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flak monkey
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 08:25 AM |
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Funny that...mine died too. Both analogue outputs have gone to 0v but the serial out for the PC still works.
Seems to be very common and Innovate will repair the units. If you get in touch with Felipe there he will sort it for you. I still need to send mine
off.....
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Benzine
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 08:38 AM |
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over the years i've heard loads of probs with them. techedge ftw
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 11:49 AM |
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Thanks for the replies guys.
I knew I could rely on this site
I've actually had a reply from Bill now.
Still great helpful service. Says he has some but doesn't know postage costs to Cyprus so will send it and I can pay him when we know how much
it cost!!!
Great guy.
Flak (David) that's interesting because that is exactly the symptoms of mine. Same as happened to the first one as well.
Do you have a contact number or e-mail for this Phelipe Guy at Innovate?
Raz (Mike) Sensor isn't positioned 100% optimum ie. at 12 o'clock. It's just above 90deg to horizontal so is acceptable.
Has anyone got any personal experience of the TecEdge WBo2 2Y controller. This could be another Project errrr I mean option. 
Edit:
I've just been on the Innovate site.
It seems they will repair any unit for a flat fee of $45+ p&p.
Looks like the cheapest option
[Edited on 12-8-10 by BKLOCO]
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 02:57 PM |
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The failures largely come down to poor grounding of the unit.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 03:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
The failures largely come down to poor grounding of the unit.
Grounding to the main chassis earth not good enough then?
Its strange, the LC1 was the source of several problems for me and since I have removed it (because it packed up) the digi dash figures are much more
stable for temp readings etc.
Everything is grounded properly - so I wonder if its a design fault with the units more than installation problems.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 03:33 PM |
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It's a combination of the two, no the chassis ground may not be sufficient in a sense. There are often a few ohms difference across various
chassis ground points and if your grounds for the LC1 are not exactly the same point as the ECU or device that is reading it you can end up with
current flowing in the wrong directions. The LC1 is very sensitive to it, so yes in a way they're not designed ideally, but I've never met
anyone who grounded back to the same location for both ECU and LC-1 who had problems. I read a bit about this while I was assembling my MS/LC-1 etc
combo and specifically chose to terminate literally in the same block under the same screw terminal. Touch wood I've had no problems with it,
ever.
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 04:08 PM |
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Hmmm.
That's very interesting as the LC-1 manual is very specific regarding grounding.
There is both chassis ground and signal grounds and they are NOT the same and shouldn't be the same.
I was very careful regarding the grounding of the second unit as my first one was not grounded correctly but I ensured the replacement was and it
still went bad. With all due respect to your findings coyoteboy I am not convinced this is the cause of the problem.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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RazMan
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 05:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BKLOCO
Hmmm.
That's very interesting as the LC-1 manual is very specific regarding grounding.
There is both chassis ground and signal grounds and they are NOT the same and shouldn't be the same.
Brian, I just made sure that all earths/ grounds to the controller & gauge were going back to the engine block. Strange that they specify that but
I suppose it gives the sensor the same earth making calibration easier.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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PSpirine
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 05:47 PM |
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Can't comment on the LC-1 as mine has been lying brand new and un-used for 3 years, but I may be able to suggest one or two garages which might
be a bit more lenient at MOT
(when I took my mini it was running so rich the computer readings went off the scale, so the guy unplugged the emissions probe... MOT pass with 0.00
emissions, and you all thought there was no such thing as a zero-emissions vehicle!  )
You in Nicosia by any chance?
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 06:21 PM |
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No. I'm no where near Nicosia.
I am in Paphos district, in a village up in the hills called Kathikas.
Bit cooler than Nicosia In the summer and slightly warmer in the winter.
Don't tell anyone but last MOT here it didn't meet emissions so the tester shoved the probe up the tailpipe of his car and got a printout
from that
Simples.
Mike, Are you feeding the o/p from the LC-1 to the Emerald or just to a gauge?
Are you running with a a cat now?
It's the 0v to 5v analogue o/p's that are failing.
[Edited on 12-8-10 by BKLOCO]
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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PSpirine
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 06:27 PM |
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Very nice road going from Peyia up to Kathikas and then to Polis!! Perfect for a 7
ETA: If that's the Kathikas I'm thinking of, just on the side of the mountains slightly northwest of Coral Bay??
[Edited on 12/8/10 by PSpirine]
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 06:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
Very nice road going from Peyia up to Kathikas and then to Polis!! Perfect for a 7
Not as good as the road up to Troodos.
The one that goes past Stavros tis Psokas.
Hairpins all the way for about 20K
I might post a video one day.
Yep thats the right Kathikas. It's actually dead inland from Lara bay straight up the gorge.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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RazMan
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| posted on 12/8/10 at 07:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BKLOCO
Mike, Are you feeding the o/p from the LC-1 to the Emerald or just to a gauge?
Are you running with a a cat now?
It's the 0v to 5v analogue o/p's that are failing.
I had to put a cat in the system when my first MOT came up - that's when I decided to remap it myself as I had fitted hotter cams and larger
throttle body. I don't have the LC-1 feeding the ecu (MBE btw) as I haven't figured out how to calibrate it in the ecu software. So it
just powers my AFR gauge at the moment (0-5V)
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 12:06 AM |
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quote:
Hmmm.
That's very interesting as the LC-1 manual is very specific regarding grounding.
There is both chassis ground and signal grounds and they are NOT the same and shouldn't be the same.
I was very careful regarding the grounding of the second unit as my first one was not grounded correctly but I ensured the replacement was and it
still went bad. With all due respect to your findings coyoteboy I am not convinced this is the cause of the problem.
Yup, heater ground should not be the same as signal ground (you should scope the noise on the ground even with the grounds set up as they suggest, it
seems to inject a load of trash back onto the lines). I was referring to the signal grounds being the same as the ECU ones - a combination of my
misleading comment and it being 3 years since I installed it and forgetting there was a seperate heater ground!
If you get on the Innovate forums and chat to their technical support about it they'll explain fully, but it's basically down to a lack of
protection on the DACs for the two output stages, which is inherent in their design. It's only a problem if you install it in a way likely to
cause the troubles. IMO it should be protected better than it is but who am I to argue.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 12:06 AM |
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quote:
Hmmm.
That's very interesting as the LC-1 manual is very specific regarding grounding.
There is both chassis ground and signal grounds and they are NOT the same and shouldn't be the same.
I was very careful regarding the grounding of the second unit as my first one was not grounded correctly but I ensured the replacement was and it
still went bad. With all due respect to your findings coyoteboy I am not convinced this is the cause of the problem.
Yup, heater ground should not be the same as signal ground (you should scope the noise on the ground even with the grounds set up as they suggest, it
seems to inject a load of trash back onto the other lines). I was referring to the signal grounds being the same as the ECU ones - a combination of my
misleading comment and it being 3 years since I installed it and forgetting there was a seperate heater ground!
If you get on the Innovate forums and chat to their technical support about it they'll explain fully, but it's basically down to a lack of
protection on the DACs for the two output stages, which is inherent in their design. It's only a problem if you install it in a way likely to
cause the troubles. IMO it should be protected better than it is but who am I to argue.
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dlatch
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 01:07 AM |
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pasted from the innovate manual
3. LC-1 Cable connections:
A. Interface and power cables with 6 stripped ends*:
a. Red 12V supply
b. Blue Heater Ground
c. White System Ground
d. Yellow Analog out 1
e. Brown Analog out 2
f. Black Calibration wire
B. Serial In connection, 2.5mm stereo (female) marked as IN
C. Serial Out connection, 2.5 mm stereo (female) marked as OUT.
4. Connect the RED wire to a switched 12V source in your car. A switched 12V source
goes on as soon as the ignition on the car is on. Make sure the connection is fused with a
minimum fuse size of 5A.
5. The BLUE and WHITE wires should all be grounded to the same ground source.
Optimally, these (and any other MTS device ground) will be soldered to the same lug, and
connected to a single point. When this isn’t possible, connect each one to a separate lug,
and attach in close proximity. Multiple lugs on the same bolt is not optimal, and can result in
unwanted signal “noise.” When possible, soldering is always better than crimping.
no mention of earthing the heater earth separate to the system ground in the manual 
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 04:23 AM |
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I'm pretty sure those instructions are different to mine.
I'll dig them out later and compare.
Thanks for this most useful info.
Still waiting for a reply from Innovate.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 07:49 AM |
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quote:
no mention of earthing the heater earth separate to the system ground in the manual
 I knew I shouldn't question myself. I'd thought that in the first place but then thought it possibly common sense to ground it
elsewhere (especially as I had some noise problems from the heater ground). I really should stick to my first thoughts! Either way, the recommendation
was to ground it to the same location as the ECU sensor grounds to prevent ground loops and differential potentials on the various grounds. Which is
common sense really.
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 08:40 AM |
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OK.
I've just dug out my instructions as suppleid with the LC-1
Here's what they say about grounding which is clearly not the same as the grounding instructions posted earlier.
HELP!!!!!!!
3. LC-1 Cable connections.
3.1 Out of the LC-1 come 3 cables.
A. Interface and power connections with 7 stripped ends.
a. red 12v supply
b. blue Heater ground
c. white System ground
d. yellow Analogue out 1
e. brown Analogue out 2
f. green Analogue ground
g. black Calibration wire
B. Serial in connection 2.5mm stereo (female) marked IN
C. Serial out connection 2.5mm stereo (female) marked OUT
4. Connect 12v supply wire to switched 12v source. fuse with 5amp minimum.
5. Connect Heater ground to a chassis ground
6. Connect the system ground to where you will use the analogue out signals (if you use the analogue out signals as input for ECU or data-logger
connect the system ground to the ground of the ecu or data-logger)
7. Optionally connect the analogue out signals to their intended devices.
NOTE: The analogue ground should be connected to either the system ground or ECU/data-logger ground if used.
Now I'm totally confused as to what the correct grounding plan is, for the LC-1
If and when I get a reply from Innovate I think the question needs to be asked of them.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 09:35 AM |
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That is essentially the same mate, the only difference is that on later models they brought out the signal ground separately. It's still teh
same case, at the end of the day the important bit is what I mentioned earlier, system and analogue/signal grounds should be connected to the ECU
ground point. The heater controller is a bit of a raw/messy creation and so isn't sensitive to being grounded randomly, providing it's not
adding to other problems.
The analogue and system grounds are very important to be at the same potential as the ground for the ECU or device which measures the output, if
it's not grounded at the same point under certain conditions you can end up with a reverse current on the outputs, which toasts them.
This all comes down to how you have your car wired, whether the ECU and sensor wiring all goes direct to chassis ground or via an earthing block, and
how they're connected together. The simplest, but least neat in most cases, way is to take a single really heavy cable off the battery neg to a
grounding block, then take all grounds directly to that but even within that setup there's scope for differences between grounds, the ideal
would be to take all grounds directly back to a single bolt on the neg of the battery. Try to get as close to that as possible!
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dlatch
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 09:52 AM |
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there are two versions i think
6 and 7 wires hence the two sets of instructions so just follow either sets depending which version you have.
mine is a 6 wire which should be the latest version as its only a month old
you can download the instructions from the innovate website in pdf format.
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 13/8/10 at 10:56 AM |
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I think you will find that the 6 wire version is the early production version (that's what my instruction book says anyway) so you may have
bought old stock.
This 6 wire version has no Analogue ground.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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