T66
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 12:41 PM |
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I concur Froggy
My Saab T7 on brown injectors will top out at 300bhp, currently now about 280 ish. Thats with a stock fuel pump and 3.5bar fpr.
A T5 with 630cc Dekas and 3.5bar fpr and related hardware/software will easily make 450bhp, common to see them over 500bhp.
You seen this site Froggy ?
http://www.ericsaabsite.com/
[Edited on 4/4/11 by T66]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 12:51 PM |
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I'm finding this slightly irritating as I can't work out how you're breaking the laws of physics  Stock brown injectors are meant
to be about 350cc/min? How, without a large fuel pressure change, do you get to 275-300 with them? I'm not disagreeing with you (I can see
plenty of sites claiming 125 hp/cyl on the 630s, but only at greatly raised fuel pressure), I'm just a bit baffled. You'd need the BSFC of
a highly tuned, variable valve timed N/A car to get even close to 450hp from 630cc/min evenwith them operating at 100% DC.
[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 01:43 PM |
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Its the wonderful world of saabs where things don't make sense, like how Can a totally stock engine go from 150hp to 500 without exploding .
The 630,s are working hard to do it but my old 9k fully loaded at 1500kg did a 13.2 1/4 at 120mph trap at pod last September so it's making a
bit more than 280hp .
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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faero
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 04:23 PM |
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Nothing special going on here: Standard 3bar fuel pressure and 630cc injectors starting to max out at 100% by 500bhp and you are pretty much there.
I tried a few online calculators and they seem to be very close.
Also need to consider what is considered as the right amount of fuel? Usually it's about 11.5 to 12AFR for a nice top end. If you want 10.5
then you need more fuel.... Is the AFR included in these calcs?
Doing it by the book you'd want 80% max duty and run 750cc. That way if the engine runs into the knock fuelling maps it's got plenty in
reserve.
I've got the same 630cc on my B234R and dynoed at 507crank on a Maha dyno. Add some fudge factor and it's still a solid 480bhp or
thereabouts. (Maha's are usually pretty good at CHP)
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 05:13 PM |
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Which calculators did you use? I'm not sure which AFR they select for the choice, but you can bet your bottom dollar it's not richer than
it needs to be - I'd guess at 12.5:1 as they seem to be geared around N/A engines. To run richer you'd need even more. I could list you
literally 5 calcs that all give the same results that put 500 outside the scope of 630s on stock fuel unless (and sometimes even if) you forget to
chance the BSFC.
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 05:27 PM |
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im not sure where this is going but there are several saab owners running close to 500 hp on those injectors with dyno proven results to back it up .
on paper my 9000 shouldnt whup a v10 audi r8 from 70-160mph but it does 
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 06:54 PM |
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it's not going anywhere lol. im just trying to identify how this could be the case,im not calling anyone a liar, just wondering why saab lumps
are not internationally renowned race engines if its so easy to get silly powerffom, when companies spend 5 digit figures getting more universally
accepted performance engines make that power. with the added confusion that it seems saab owners are the only people who can re-write the book on fuel
flow and physics?
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catman
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 07:28 PM |
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i will be racing alongside a monster kitten this year, cant seem to add attachment so its in my photo archive (tiddles) Worth a look!
Ed
caged supersix
Carbon/GRP
210 bhp silvertop
190 lbft
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 07:29 PM |
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like i said saabs are a bit strange ,the b204/234 from 94-98 are a result of saab engineers getting their own way as the quality went downhill rapidly
once the gm bean counters got involved .
the 204 and 234 spent their lives in fairly dull cars driven by nice people so never appeared on the performance horizon but the motor is a gem having
a good head design chain driven with twin balance shafts and a very strong bottom end .
bang for buck its in a league of its own tuning wise as the saab ecu has excellent knock control and a free resource for tuning via a fairly cheap
can/usb adaptor .
i hammered my 9000 for 12 months running 480ish hp with no issues other than a few broken gearboxes and a fried clutch, the only failure ive had was
when i started tuning the vgt holset im using now and hit 3 bar boost lifting the head and hydraulic locking cly1 .
this is the new turbo
this is it next to the normal tdo4 turbo from the aero
the stock bottom end is coping with 650+hp in europe and the us
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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blakep82
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 07:41 PM |
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this whole 'it'll work' / it won't work will go on for ever
just get it done and prove him wrong froggy it looks awesome
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 08:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by catman
i will be racing alongside a monster kitten this year, cant seem to add attachment so its in my photo archive (tiddles) Worth a look!
Ed
i think thats the tvr chassis car that been around for years , im pretty sure ive seen most of the road legal hot kittens
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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faero
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 09:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
it's not going anywhere lol. im just trying to identify how this could be the case,im not calling anyone a liar, just wondering why saab lumps
are not internationally renowned race engines if its so easy to get silly powerffom, when companies spend 5 digit figures getting more universally
accepted performance engines make that power. with the added confusion that it seems saab owners are the only people who can re-write the book on fuel
flow and physics?
In all these things: the theory is merely a guide that is bound to er on the side of caution.
Many dynos of cars running about 480bhp on these - nothing special in the Saab engine here.
Better to use: 'Are they maxed out' yes/no. Fit bigger. ( I prefer the smallest possible just for economy and setup ease).
Random google pulls plenty 480bhp cars and this is a completely random 500bhp one (463whp)
http://www.modifiedcars.com/cars/21714/modified-honda-widebody-s2000-turbo-2001-pictures
The Saab head flows really quite well (relatively) and if you have a massive open turbine side, who knows what the BSFC is?
Try here:
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
490bhp, 4 injectors, 0.55 BSFC, 100% duty = 640cc/min. So in the end we end up arguing over the BSFC of the Saab engine with a Holset strapped
on. And no-one here knows what the answer is....
(In fact I see that an efficient, well intercooler turbo engine running bags of ignition advance can go as low as 0.47 BSFC so that would take is up
to 510bhp)
[Edited on 4/4/11 by faero]
[Edited on 4/4/11 by faero]
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T66
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 09:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by froggy
im not sure where this is going but there are several saab owners running close to 500 hp on those injectors with dyno proven results to back it up .
on paper my 9000 shouldnt whup a v10 audi r8 from 70-160mph but it does
Ask the 911 owner what my 4th gear 70-150mph is like - small dot in my rear view mirror lol.
Pipe and slippers , I say pipe and slippers
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hillbillyracer
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 09:31 PM |
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I just dont get it, all the theory in the world matters for nothing, it has the injectors fitted & it makes the power, where's the
problem?!
What I can say for sure is when I & the others at Santa Pod that day saw the plain green 9000 run up the strip we were stunned!
In the somewhat lighter kitten it's going to be very impressive.
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 09:46 PM |
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Saabinator 2 only needs to lose 1/2 a second to beat the current challenge record of 12.8 for the 1/4 . I may need to fashion some sort of undertray
to catch the bits of gearbox or engine if I can't get control over the monster holset , it's already eaten two conrods
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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adam1985
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 09:49 PM |
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Looks like a tidy project ill keep my eye out for you when its done
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 10:21 PM |
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quote:
I just dont get it, all the theory in the world matters for nothing, it has the injectors fitted & it makes the power, where's the
problem?!
There's no problem, I asked how. Do you normally just accept anything you hear without questioning it in order to learn? I want to know what
makes Saab engines totally different from just about every other turbocharged engine that does follow the theory. I might consider the engine myself
for a future project, and I won't do that based on some random comments on a forum, I want to know the details so I can understand and justify
it myself.
[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 10:49 PM |
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Wish I could tell you why but the science bit isnt me . Most of my customers didn't believe me until I had dyno results .
The 204/234 is just an oddity that,s been massively over engineered
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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T66
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 05:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
I just dont get it, all the theory in the world matters for nothing, it has the injectors fitted & it makes the power, where's the
problem?!
There's no problem, I asked how. Do you normally just accept anything you hear without questioning it in order to learn? I want to know what
makes Saab engines totally different from just about every other turbocharged engine that does follow the theory. I might consider the engine myself
for a future project, and I won't do that based on some random comments on a forum, I want to know the details so I can understand and justify
it myself.
[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]
To help understand how, register at the ecuproject.com.
And have a browse of the reading here - http://trionic.mobixs.eu/
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gottabedone
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 06:15 AM |
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.............well bun fights and pi55ing competitions aside, that's one great little project
How are you getting that power down on 13" rims though?
good luck, I'm sure there will be a lot watching!
Steve
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 09:06 AM |
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No bunfights here, you big drama queens. Jeeze a guy asks a few questions and everyone thinks he's having a go, get a grip people.
quote:
To help understand how, register at the ecuproject.com.
I'd sign up but I can't register, the page is 404. However I tune ECU's fairly regularly both at work and play, what's
different?
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 11:48 AM |
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Coyote...
I'm pretty sure most people on here/out there are aware that you are asking because you need to know, and not because you doubt their word...
I for one love it when a man can't accept something and carries on quizzing to learn WITHOUT losing his temper, so well done for continueing
trying to learn!!!
I'm afraid I've never studied ANYTHING at all re injector capabilities, so i take what has been said above as truth (Everyone's
point of view! ).
On top of that, All I'll add is to Froggy, well done mate, and crack on. Looks like fantastic project! Can't wait to see it
complete!!!
ATB
Steve
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catman
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 12:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by froggy
quote:
Originally posted by catman
i will be racing alongside a monster kitten this year, cant seem to add attachment so its in my photo archive (tiddles) Worth a look!
Ed
i think thats the tvr chassis car that been around for years , im pretty sure ive seen most of the road legal hot kittens
i dont think its road legal somehow?!! Seriously if you think you know about the car would you mind sending me your number so i can put you in touch
with my mate as he is trying to chase the history.
Cheers
Ed
caged supersix
Carbon/GRP
210 bhp silvertop
190 lbft
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T66
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 12:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
No bunfights here, you big drama queens. Jeeze a guy asks a few questions and everyone thinks he's having a go, get a grip people.
quote:
To help understand how, register at the ecuproject.com.
I'd sign up but I can't register, the page is 404. However I tune ECU's fairly regularly both at work and play, what's
different?
All much of a muchness - my point was you would be able to see for yourself what the guys are getting from their Saab engines
http://ecuproject.com/index.html
Its not 404 - have another go.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 5/4/11 at 12:43 PM |
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Steve - cheers, just naturally very inquisitive but it does tend to get some peoples backs up! Fortunately those in the know here have been patient
with me!
Regarding the link - yep the main page is up but you (I) can't get the "sign up" page to load, I get 404.
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