whitestu
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:30 PM |
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Any builders in the house?
I have just got some quotes in for a loft conversion and extension, settled on a builder I liked and agreed a price. The builder sent through a
contract today which seems reasonable except that he is asking for £14k up front [20% of the total cost] before any work has started or plans drawn
up.
I'm really uncomfortable with this as he could disappear with my money, but not sure if this is standard practice. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks
Stu
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Simon
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:51 PM |
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Progs like Rogue Traders recommend that no money is paid upfront - especially for materials, as builders would be expected to have accounts with
suppliers on 30+ day terms.
I'd suggest that you lay out a build timetable and payment timetable - ie he gets, say the footings down, then you give him 10%, when the ground
floor brickwork is done, give him another 10 and so on, withholding the final 20% till the build has been certificated by building control.
If there is worry on either side ie your concern of him doing a runner or you sacking him after a lot of works been done and no payment made, then
perhaps the services of an escrow account might be used.
ATB
Simon
[Edited on 30/12/11 by Simon]
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Blackbird Rush
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
I have just got some quotes in for a loft conversion and extension, settled on a builder I liked and agreed a price. The builder sent through a
contract today which seems reasonable except that he is asking for £14k up front [20% of the total cost] before any work has started or plans drawn
up.
I'm really uncomfortable with this as he could disappear with my money, but not sure if this is standard practice. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks
Stu
Hi stu
We used a local builder to us (based in Ricky) when we had our extension, no money up front and just billed at the end of each month.
Obviously cash flow may be an issue but they should be on credit terms with their suppliers.
14k sounds loads to much up front
U2u me if you want anymore info on who I used , also have a friend locally having works done by a local builder.
Cheers
Ash
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Ben_Copeland
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:54 PM |
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No money up front!!! unless its a large established company.
Also might be worth getting your own architect to draw up plans.
Plus make sure the council is involved, planning and building regs. They all need to be inplace before work starts...
Ben
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jacko
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 06:55 PM |
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say sorry but no as you say he could just go off with your money
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Wheels244
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:03 PM |
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Agreed - no payment up front.
They get at least 30 days on materials.
I would accept making stage payments on work completed
but not up front.
A builder who doesn't have enough working capital to pay for
materials and wages for workforce would concern me.
You don't pay for your vegatables up front and then wait for them to grow !
Just my opinion.
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:03 PM |
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Hi when I did my extension with a local company, we paid a deposit 2.5% to secure the build the build and slot as they work 6 months in advance and
signed a contract to make payments at certain times of the build, and the Amounts varied depending on the work ie steel going in roof off etcbrqk down
for you,
Plans to local authority 5%
commencement was 35%
dorm and flux in 30%
ready for plaster 20%
completion 7.5%
Hope this helps
Ps if you ar near Essex I would very much recommend them,
Sean
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Puzzled
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:05 PM |
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Are you for real???!!!!! To even consider "Money up front" is madness. Unless you know enough about the construction industry, and are
competent to supervise and controle the contractor, the best advice you will ever get is : Bite the bullett, employ an architect and get him to have
formal contracts drawn up and signed. He will then be responsible for certifying payment in stages for works completed. This is the best advice you
will ever get ---- and its cost you nothing!!!!!
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roadrunner
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:47 PM |
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Paying a deposit up front is not unreasonable , but 14k is rather a lot.
But don't forget that there are bad customers as well as bad builders.
Brad.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:50 PM |
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£140, not £14,000!
Like everyone says he should be able to get hold of enough materials to start the job without needing £14k off you.
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mark.s
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:50 PM |
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was the builder/contractor recommended, or was he a name out of the paper/ google ???
mark
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mark.s
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:57 PM |
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You don't pay for your vegatables up front and then wait for them to grow !
Just my opinion.
do you just walk out of the garden center with your seeds then ?
mark
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jossey
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 07:57 PM |
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I won't pay any cash up front to any builder but I always offer to pay for any materials they need to be onsite. This way they can't do a
runner. 8 properties developed later and never ripped off.
Good luck
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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BenB
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:00 PM |
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No way! Don't pay anything up front and spec the job like your life depends on it (even silly things like "removing all the rubbish
afterwards, making good any paintwork damaged during the build" .
It's not that builders are untrustworthy but like most people they work for the money rather than the love of it. If they can get your money and
not do the work they will! We had some really good builders do some work on our renovation- they had done lots of work for us before (when I was the
boss), they almost got the job done in the day in question (new cast iron poo pipe) but didn't have time to paint it. On oaths that
they'd come back to paint it the next day my wife gave them the full money. Did they come back? Did they heck as like. And these were people my
family had in one way or another given the best part of 30k over the last few years in work.
So
Rule 1) No money up front
Rule 2) Spec every last sodding detail
Rule 3) 100% money only paid on completion of job
or if you're really mean
Rule 3b) 90% paid on completion, 10% paid two weeks later once absence of faults fully apparant.
If a builder isn't prepared to give their handiwork a couple of weeks to prove there are no problems it does make you think they're
probably pretty bollocks.
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Wheels244
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark.s
You don't pay for your vegatables up front and then wait for them to grow !
Just my opinion.
do you just walk out of the garden center with your seeds then ?
mark
Not really sure of your point ?
My anology was based around eg. footings promised as opposed to footings completed, maybe I should have extrapolated.
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gottabedone
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:19 PM |
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As above,
FMB is a good place to start. Just used a builder off here for a big extension and his prices weren't any
more expensive than a non registered builder. Not being on here doesn't make them crap though.
We had the plans drawn up, no money up front and final 10% was on completion of snagging list (and these were only minor things really)
Most good builders are busy for months in advance unless they can slot you in between big jobs. All will be able to provide references unless they are
crap/skint/dodgy.
After a traumatic experience having a large extension put on a previous house, we also set ground rules as the builder was working in most of the
house at some point.
We were living here and have big dogs and kids and the work was happening over the winter. Our builder was courteous, tidy and I was happy to trust
him with my home.
good luck
Steve
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tul214
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:20 PM |
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I have read your post twice now....are you saying he wants £14k before you have even been granted planning permission?
Tell him to do one.
I work as a construction manager for a big supermarket and although it is a bit different, I would insist on a ful scope of works which would include
spec etc. Maybe you could creat a bill of quantities yourself or as above, get a trusted/recomended architect t do it for you.
The builder may request a fair amount for doig the plans and submitting the plans but up until you receive planning consent and you have a start date,
give him no more.
I would recommend phased payments as suggested above. Maybe split the total costs by the weeks and pay him at the end of each week.
I would also agree with holding a retainer back until all snags are completed.
1.6 Raw Super6 sold
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Humbug
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:23 PM |
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It seems fair enough to give a small deposit as a sign of good faith, but not 20%. Based on experience of IT development projects (not the same, I
know, but they do also involve planning, achieving milestones etc. over a period of time), I would suggest holding back at least 20% for satisfactory
completion, and never let them get more than about 10% ahead of what they have actually delivered/completed. When you are talking about a £70k build
(based on £14k being 20%) I think you can be allowed to call the tune.
Good luck
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whitestu
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:42 PM |
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Thanks for the replies.
To fill in a bit more detail, we got the company's contact details from a Google serach, not recommendations, but have been to two references
and they seemed happy [but realistic] about the company and the work they had done. The builder seems reasonable and competent.
The inital proposal he gave us, based on a detaled quote, was £14k up front with 8 staged payments of £6722, stage 9 payment of £4668 and a stage 10
payment of £1556 due when all confirmation of compliance from the council is recieved.
He has since clarified that no up front payment would be due until drawings are done [not that that helps much] and is coming back to us with a
rethink on the up front payment.
My view is that I don't see why I should pay up front for anything other than costs the builder is incurring plus a token deposit.
Stu
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Simon
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 08:55 PM |
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I did my own planning drawings (approved) though I will need (have one lined-up) a structural engineer to do the loadings, though I'll also be
doing the building regs drawing too. That'll save a load, I'll be doing all the groundworks, employ a bricky and a roofer and do the rest
myself.
ATB
Simon
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 09:04 PM |
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I work in the construction industry as a professional on the client side of the business and have over 20 years experience.
In all this time, having managed well over 1000 projects I can tell you money is never paid up front.
Money is drawn down through the build process on a monthly basis - based upon work done measured against a construction program and materials stored
on site.
Also Never pay for materials offsite unless you visit to see where they are and that they are fully labelled as yours and proof of ownership, and only
then if it is absolutely unavoidable.
I would actually question the financial standing of any building firm requesting money up front.
I would also reccomend you have a proper contract drawn up also.
It is also normal to keep a retention of 5% through the build which reduces to 2.5% on completion the remaining 2.5% is only paid after 12 months
period has lapsed and all outstanding unfished work/defects have been completed.
These are what commercial builders accept as normal practice, little different in the domestic sector but shows you what you need to consider in a
contract.
[Edited on 30/12/11 by big-vee-twin]
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 09:43 PM |
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Hi an I ask total cost as that seems a lot for a loft conversion,
I had a big loft conversion done which was 25 ft by 30ft and with a cat slider roof which is mo expensive to do ( but I ccomend it for space and
look)
Tis including fitting all new furniture carpet full ensuite fit with walk in shower top quality products walk in wardrobe etc, pressurised system new
everything and was 34k all in once totaled it all up,
Is yours much bigger or do you have to raise the roof etc,
Also normally don't need planning permission for lofts if on the rear of the building only the front,
Also top tip make su if fitting Felix windows make sure they shaper out the sills by 45 deg as let's in more light and looks better, I can put
up a pic for you,
Any advice req please ask away as I only did it last year,
Thanks
Sean
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whitestu
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 09:48 PM |
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quote:
Hi an I ask total cost as that seems a lot for a loft conversion,
I had a big loft conversion done which was 25 ft by 30ft and with a cat slider roof which is mo expensive to do ( but I ccomend it for space and
look)
Tis including fitting all new furniture carpet full ensuite fit with walk in shower top quality products walk in wardrobe etc, pressurised system new
everything and was 34k all in once totaled it all up,
Is yours much bigger or do you have to raise the roof etc,
Also normally don't need planning permission for lofts if on the rear of the building only the front,
Also top tip make su if fitting Felix windows make sure they shaper out the sills by 45 deg as let's in more light and looks better, I can put
up a pic for you,
Any advice req please ask away as I only did it last year,
Thanks
Sean
Thanks Sean
It's not just for the loft, but for a rear 1st floor extension, new boiler and some internal alterations as well.
We aren't far from Essex so if you have a builder you can recommend who would come as far as South West Herts let me know.
Cheers
Stu
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 30/12/11 at 10:01 PM |
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I do he goes that way into London also etc,
I will u2u his details also I know another builder highly recommend who done all work in my house top draw work and known him for over 10 years and
good on price and done a extension on my brothers house so you could also visit to see there work etc,
I will dig out details of them but loft conversion company is gm loft conversions best thing he lives in my village and drink in the pub with me so
will not rip anyone off etc,
Cheers and will u2u you etc
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